Advice for women on BMQ and other courses [MERGED]

[camochick]

If entry-level standards are task-based (ie: like a civilian firefighter's fitness test: directly related to likely demands of duty) then there cannot be any variance for gender: the task is the task.

Agreed. I don't think it's fair that the requirements are lowered for women, especially when they are going to do the same job as a man. I want to know that if my house is burning and someone has to pull me out, that they can actually get me out of there. I think if women want to be treated equally then we should have to meet the same requirments to do the job, as men do.

 

[big bad john]

For many years there was a furor in the UK over women not being able to pass the All Arms Commando Course.  After many years and many women attempting to pass the AACC one finally did.  Now the flood gates are open!  The problem that the women had was the same one that plagues most of the men, lack of adequate physical preparation. 
The change that had to be made for women was both a major and a simple one.  Women are built differently from men, so a prep course for women was developed.  This takes into account areas that they are stronger in than men and areas that they must concentrate on.  The Prep Program is self administered by the perspective applicants, they are encouraged to find a partner to train with.  Some units actually put together training cells for the Program.

It does work!

 

[Chags]

Here is a fact..  

I few years back, I was a course officer for the QL3 Inf (reg) course.  We had a female soldier who PT-wise, had absolutely no problems.. she could run with the pack, and do more chin ups than most guys on the course.  Carrying a rucksack was a different story.  She fell out of every march that was over 2 km. (Of the 28 candidates, about 3-4 total fell back (or out) every march.  That course was condensed about halfway through by 2 weeks so that the two courses being run at the time could graduate the same day, and most of the soldiers from both courses would all go to the same unit that was about to go on a major exercise in the US.  The unit wanted the new soldiers to take part in this EX.  I had to rework the timetable drastically in order to make this happen, and in the end, the course did not conduct the actual BFT.  My hands were tied.  I could not fail this soldier as she had not failed to complete this task, and not had a chance to be re-evaluated at it.  In the end, she showed up at the unit, and ended up spending most of her first year on light duty, and unfit to do, well anything.. She did not go on tour with the unit when it deployed to Afghanistan.  I cannot comment on her performance since, as I've been since posted out.  

 

[mdh]

I think Infanteer and BBJ have narrowed down this debate to its essence.  

Women are here to stay and it's pointless to continue debating an issue that governments are not going to revisit.  

The real question is how to get good women to serve effectively in the combat arms - which as BBJ alluded to - needs to be properly thought out by the training authority.  

As the old cliche goes: that there are no bad soldiers only bad leaders - perhaps as a paraphrase we might say there are no bad female soldiers - only a training system that has not properly addressed this issue?

cheers, mdh

 

[enfield]

Combat Medic- Your absolutely right that there has not been a general furor over women coming home in body bags from Iraq. I would however point to the Jessica Lynch example as the media (and military public relations and various other factions) going nuts, primarily because she was a young woman. The case was blown completely out of proportion, both due to the public's interest, the media's fanning of the flames, and the US military's attempts to win some PR points.
However, I'd also add that the US does not generally pay much attention to casualties and body bags coming home. Compare the attention that a half dozen Canadian dead over the past few years has received to the planeloads of coffins coming back from Iraq (if Canada lost 30 soldiers in a single incident, I think the Government would fall and CF be paralyzed for decades with inquiries). I think Canadian reaction to many female deaths would be notable, but not enough to change policy - if anything, they'd just stop sending the army anywhere.

pbi - A few years ago (three? four?) I recall a well-publicized case - by well publicized I mean it made the papers here in Vancouver, even the front page for a day - of female candidates and WATC training staff. WATC instructors (PPCLI QL3 instructors I believe) were in serious trouble because they had been holding female candidates to the same physical standards as set for men. A high percentage of female recruits (almost all of them?) had failed as a result, and that had drawn attention of higher-ups. Anyone else remember this or have more detail?

I think there are two seperate issues here. The first is the theoretical concept of women in Cbt Arms, and the second, as pbi stated, is the policies that put women into these units.
While I personally have trouble with the notion of women in combat arms for various reasons related to average phsyical ability and social costs of integration, I don't see it as a big issue - its here to stay, and as Infanteer has pointed out, women are such a smal percentage in combat units that the question is largely irrelevant. In the end a Canadian platoon/company/battalion will not be weak or fail because of a couple female soldiers, it will fail or be weak because of inadequate support, lack of tanks/helicopters, poor trainining, etc.

What I think gets all of us upset is the unequal and sexist policies that the CF (and other militaries, I know the IDF has ridiculous policies regarding this) that are put in place to allow integration. These policies are mainly centered around the double standard for PT and the lowered overall standards on courses/in units that allow weak men and women to remain.(I also have a problem with the way in which DND has sought to attract female recruits). Its important to identify the difference between disliking how woman are integrated with disliking women in the unit period.
I believe DND's policies regarding integration, at all phases of a woman's recruitment and career, are demeaning to the (female)soldier and do more to undermine unit cohesion and confidence than anything that female soldier could do.

 

[Sub_Guy]

The best person for the job.  Bottom line.

There should be a set standard test for both sexes, and the best person for the job should get the job.  I don't care what it is for, Firefighters, police officers, day care workers, Infanteers, and any other job on the planet.

I am sick of this issue of sex/race and any other factor that comes into play, it is happening everywhere and it has to stop.

 

[Gunner]

I am sick of this issue of sex/race and any other factor that comes into play, it is happening everywhere and it has to stop.

Amen, brother, amen.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

I think the Canadian people - that ill-defined group - is getting the raw end of the stick both from the government, and from posters here.  We took fairly heavy losses in Korea and yet managed to keep ground troops employed effectively for over two years in an unpopular war.

I don't think Canadians would turn into gibbering idiots should we lose more than a handful of troops as combat fatalities - depending on HOW WELL THE MISSION IS DEFINED.  Losing a platoon of men in a "peaceful" operation would be devastating politically.  Losing them in a combat operation such as the early months in Afghanistan would be another thing alotegether.

I think the "Canadian people' are better than that, frankly.  Public opinion is the government's to lose - pretending not to employ soldiers on hazardous duty will likely get the results described here. 

Remember when that officer at NDHQ made dire predictions about body bags, and everyone in the press - and here - lambasted him and called him an idiot?  Now, I'm not so sure.  I applaud him for properly preparing the ground.  In cases like that, I think the Canadian people will surprise you every time.

I told a WW II vet "my generation couldn't do what you guys did."

He knew better.  He said that they had no idea either, and that we wouldn't know unless we had to try.  I don't think Windsor or Toronto liked what happened at Dieppe, but they didn't riot in the streets or bring the government down.  There was "spin" on the debacle but no hiding the casualty lists in the daily newspapers.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Well, the topic is "Issues of Women in Combat".

I think it is clear that the majority here have no problem with issues of women in combat, so the question now is: what should be the scale of issue?

 

[onecat]

If the CF, God forbid, fills 67 bodybags next week and half have women in them, we could have a new operational employment policy long before we see any of the ORBATS being bandied about here.

Really why would that change anything.  Society has changed a lot on the last 30 years and I don't think the out would be worst just because women were killed in a action.  Like it or not, society is moving on and women work in every field and now that cat is out of bag so too speak.. women will always be combat units as well.  The oit cry if 67 bodybags did come home should be why did this happen how to do we keep it from happening again.. not my god look at the women who killed.  If you look at your statment its kind'a sexist in that valve of a women's life is some how more important, and that there more of an out cry in their deaths than in that of males.  The hard ships the same for the families no matter who comes in the bodybag.

 

[NMPeters]

pbi: I doubt that you/we are ever going to find hard "facts" about lowered training standards. We all know it has happened and is happening in order to satisfy the government officials overseeing gender equality. But to find it actually written down or stated somewhere....I don't think we'll find that. That's an interesting dichotemy, isn't it? Lowering the training standards to ensure gender equality....

As far as women in combat goes, when one looks at the three block war, it doesn't matter if the person, male or female, is badged combat arms or not. The risk is virtually the same in any of those blocks.

 

[Horse_Soldier]

Well, the topic is "Issues of Women in Combat".

I think it is clear that the majority here have no problem with issues of women in combat, so the question now is: what should be the scale of issue?

One per - just like the scale of issue of combat boots these days  ;D

 

[Highland Lad]

The issue is OLD - the approach taken by 1st world nations around the world over the last 50-60 yrs is relatively new.

There are many good reasons why women should never have to face combat - they are the same reasons why men should never have to face combat. There were many other historical reasons, most of which do not apply in today's world.

I was once involved in a conversation (at the time of Desert Shield / Desert Storm) that almost exactly followed one I read a while later in a book (fiction) about GW1 - two soldiers, 1 male 1 female were discussing what would happen to the unit if the fit hit the shan and we had to go as a unit; would we leave the female soldiers behind? His reasoning was that, if they were taken captive, Iraqi soldiers would not hesitate to use rape as a means of torture, so would she be willing to face that? She said that she couldn't think of anything that she would rather avoid - then asked him how he would stand up to being raped... He kind of waffled on this one and then turned around and walked away.

My point - capability and performance should determine whether someone is tasked cbt arms or not - plumbing is basically irrelevant.

 

[pbi]

My point - capability and performance should determine whether someone is tasked cbt arms or not - plumbing is basically irrelevant.

I am with you on this.

Cheers

 

[Block 1]

      I don't really understand what this is all about. There are woman in combats, they do a good job, and they will be staying!!! I think it's more of the other side of the conversation. The question should be revisited and read â Å“Man that have a problem with woman in the militaryâ ? Now list that up and lets do some bashing.

Soldiers First

 

[Britney Spears]

One per - just like the scale of issue of combat boots these days  Grin

So guess what the troops are going to ask next: Can we use Non-issued/aftermarket women? What if the issued women are not adequate for the mission? But 3VP can use whatever they feel like!  The jump coys are of course going to say that you can't jump with the issued women..........

<a href=http://www.warriormindset.com/Videos/Negligence.mpg>Women and firearms</a>







Thanks folks, I'm here all week.

 

[nawk]

Wow that cop is an idiot.  I bet that person being restrained must be scared shitless.  However it is not fair to make an assumption from this one incident that all women can't handle firearms.

 

[George Wallace]

Wow that cop is an idiot. I bet that person being restrained must be scared shitless. .

???

 

[Chags]

Britney.. that was hilarious..  I hope they have my size!!  Will I have to return my issued woman when I get out, or is that considered a next to skin item??

Seriously though..  as long as we maintain a high standard for our soldiers, we will get the best soldiers, man or woman..  As Block 1 mentionned, we are all soldiers first.  I've worked with a couple female infantry officers in 1 RCR.. actually I did phase trg with both at separate times, and both are excellent soldiers.  You can ask any of the soldiers there too, and they will say the same..  (as was mentionned in an preceding thread, one is now the EA to the CLS.. and she deserves it).

I also know another who didnt do so well, and was removed from the unit.. but that isnt saying much..  3 pl comds were "fired" that year. :threat:

 

[Britney Spears]

I hope they have my size!

Well, you know what they say about there being 2 sizes in the army,(and if you're talking about the FPV, the 2 sizes are large and extra large.). Don't forget to pick up some tan spraypaint too.

George:  You gotta click on the link