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The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

Do you honestly think Canada is not going to diversify any of its economy away from the US? I’m quite confident in postulating that Canada’s business with France will increase.
If you've read any of my posts you'd know that I'm very much in favour of diversification of Canadian trade and military purchases. However, I'm not in favour of making decisions based on purely emotion that disadvantage Canada in the long run. I would contend that our F-35 purchase is one of these things. The other options currently available are not as capable as the F-35 and there is no guarantee that any of those other suppliers would be any more focused on OUR interests over THEIR interests than the US would be.
 
"Efforts".

Call me when they actually grow a spine and stop the batshit crazy things going on.
Arguing with Trump in public is a bad idea for two reasons. He doubles down, and Musks goons come and burn your houses down.

Till then. No government in their right mind should be betting the farm on the US. And that's what committing to the full 88 frame number means. It means we sign up for "Ride or die." With Donald Trump.
You had 122 some off original Hornets.
Get 88 F-35 and 60 some player to be named later airframe if it makes you sleep better at night.
 
If you've read any of my posts you'd know that I'm very much in favour of diversification of Canadian trade and military purchases. However, I'm not in favour of making decisions based on purely emotion that disadvantage Canada in the long run. I would contend that our F-35 purchase is one of these things.
Not questioning the F-35 given notable changes in the prime nation’s mindset isn’t to some degree emotional?

The other options currently available are not as capable as the F-35
depends on what the overall capability-requirement-sustainability-affordability-survivability space is. The F35 isn’t an F22, it’s a stealthier F-16 that has some enhanced digital battle space connectivity capability.

and I think there is no guarantee that any of those other suppliers would be any more focused on OUR interests over THEIR interests than the US would be.
TFTFY…
 
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Compare Canada's trade with France vs our trade with the United States

Edit because original spreadsheet attachment didn't display correctly:

USA: $1,193,856,5 million dollars per year
France: $12,323.9 million dollars per year
Our trade with the US is 61 times our trade with France.

To be blunt....yes. Let's be honest, should we expect ANY foreign nation to view us in any way other than through the prism of their own national interest? Did the fact that the Fulda Gap was viewed as a "speed bump" to the Red Army make West Germany any less of a sovereign state? I'm sure the Germans were quite happy to have the US invested in their defence during the Cold War even if it was in their own self interest.
Well, at least France isn’t trying to force us to become their 19th (?) Region or whatever equivalent it is to the 51st state. By all means let us one day be friends again with the Americans and do business with them. Just keep them from getting too close and too friendly.
 
Not questioning the F-35 given notable changes in the prime nation’s mindset isn’t to some degree emotional?


depends on what the overall capability-requirement-sustainability-affordability-survivability space is. The F35 isn’t an F22, it’s a stealthier F-16 that has some enhanced digital battle space connectivity capability.


TFTFY…
Ok. Please provide me a list of countries that can be guaranteed to put Canada's interests ahead of their own.
 
You had 122 some off original Hornets.
Get 88 F-35 and 60 some player to be named later airframe if it makes you sleep better at night.
I’m leaning more towards this. Getting only 88 fighters all in sounds incredibly puny to me. I mean, in the 1970’s, we had 200 CF104s, 130 Voodoos and 130 CF5s. In the 1950’s, we had almost 700 Canucks and almost 1200 Sabres.

Not that I think we need that many fighters, but as a G7 air force, we should be setting our sights a little higher.
 
Ok. Please provide me a list of countries that can be guaranteed to put Canada's interests ahead of their own.
Easy. None.


But let’s not pretend that the U.S. is somehow our friend any more than UK, France, Mexico, South Korea, Turks and Caicos, etc.
 
Easy. None.


But let’s not pretend that the U.S. is somehow our friend any more than UK, France, Mexico, South Korea, Turks and Caicos, etc.
That's exactly my point. We can't count on France, the UK, SK or anyone else to put our interests above our own.

However, the self interests of the US for Canada to protect our own territory is greater than that of any other nation. So, do you trust the US to want us to protect our arctic more than France to want us to protect our arctic?
 
You had 122 some off original Hornets.
Get 88 F-35 and 60 some player to be named later airframe if it makes you sleep better at night.

Or get 65 Panthers and 88 of something else.

Like I said earlier. It's not clear that we don't have options here. Show up with a juicy order and we can see what bridge fleet options materialize. The bigger that second fleet option, the more motivated potential suppliers will be.
 
I’m leaning more towards this. Getting only 88 fighters all in sounds incredibly puny to me. I mean, in the 1970’s, we had 200 CF104s, 130 Voodoos and 130 CF5s. In the 1950’s, we had almost 700 Canucks and almost 1200 Sabres.

Not that I think we need that many fighters, but as a G7 air force, we should be setting our sights a little higher.

Every combat air force has shrunk. In no small part because fighter aircraft these days are so much more capable that dedicated roles are substantially reduced. Your strike package of fighter sweep, wild weasels, fighter-bombers and escort is more reduced to a flight of F-35s. It's a bit weird to extol the virtues of how capable fifth generation aircraft are and then insist that all those virtues be ignored for the purposes of force design.

Let's keep in mind a few points.

1) The F-35 isn't just a little bit better. It's scoring an order of magnitude more kills in exercises.

2) The network effects of a mixed fleet have also been proven. Both in exercises and combat. Having fifth gen there makes the rest of the fleet much more effective. It's a good quarterback.

3) The primary adversary in the theatre that we have to worry about is Russia. And they aren't fielding hoardes of fifth gen. So a mixed air force over the Arctic and in Europe will still be overmatch for the foreseeable future.

4) All these dreams of fighting in the Pacific and worrying about China may be over for Canada, if the Americans are abandoning Europe. Limited defence resources will be prioritized. And our commitment to the Indo-Pacific may end up being mostly naval.
 
However, I'm not in favour of making decisions based on purely emotion that disadvantage Canada in the long run.

There is nothing emotional about it. It's straight up business. And you can see how well it's working. LockMart is already making offers. You're watching leverage play it in real time. I think if the PM hadn't announced a review and flown to Europe, we wouldn't have seen this offer.

I would contend that our F-35 purchase is one of these things. The other options currently available are not as capable as the F-35 and there is no guarantee that any of those other suppliers would be any more focused on OUR interests over THEIR interests than the US would be.

The F-35 isn't as good as what is currently on offer. But what is currently on offer is not a static position either. GCAP is due to EIS by 2035. And FCAS by 2040. And those programs could well be accelerated. Especially if new partners (cough cough Canada) sign up and demand that acceleration. Given that whatever we buy is going to be in service in 2050, the actual question is what is the capability gap we're willing to accept in the 2030s to have even more capability than the originally planned 88 Panther purchase, in 2045.

Think of this period 2030-2040. What are the options?

1) 88 F-35s.

2) Original 65 F-35s and wait for GCAP/FCAS to EIS.

3) x F-35s + y Rafales/Typhoons/Gripens where x + y ≥ 88 frames.

COA 1 is the most capability. But it's also now, paradoxically, the most risk, because the US will treat us like a b**ch if we're wholly dependent. They may use that dependency to literally dictate foreign policy and sovereignty. Dispute over Arctic archipelago being domestic or international waters? No spare parts. Help Ukraine without permission? No spare parts. Etc.

COA 2 & COA 3 is less capability for the 2030s. But not substantially less capability as some here are asserting (see network effects of fifth gen). But they reduce the risk of American meddling. The reduced capability is also temporary till that 6th Gen fleet enters service. At which point, we could end up with even more capability than we would have had with 88 F-35s.

As for who is dependable and can be trusted? Well the Americans are literally telling everybody that they intend to view relationships are exclusively transactional and mercantilist going forward. Assuming they will behave as they did in the past is strange when they are openly saying they will not do that. And it's not just Trump. This is now the guiding doctrine for foreign policy in the Republican Party. And may also be the case in the Democratic Party eventually.

You're saying why should we take a risk on France? I ask, what makes you think America is not a risk going forward? If you're worried about both the US and France being a risk, diversification (with a dual fleet) is risk mitigation.

This is uncomfortable territory for many who are not used to seeing the US, as anything but a reliable ally. But we didn't take an oath to preserve a friendship. We took an oath to serve Canada. And increasingly what is best for Canada is to ensure that we're not wholly dependent on the US.
 
To be honest, no. The U.S. is in the middle of breaking something that wasn’t broken, so no, I don’t trust that the US has even its own best interests at stake.

Well put. The historical parallel for what we're seeing, that comes to mind is Mao's Cultural Revolution. It took the Chinese decades to deal with the aftermath. They are still not over it. And the CCP only got over the worst excesses by basically abandoning substantial parts of Maoist Communism. The Americans are going through their version of this. Right up to abandoning some democratic and capitalist principles we've all taken for granted.

On the topic at hand. Their Director of National Intelligence is a well known long-tine Assadist. Their FBI director (responsible for counter intelligence) is a conspiracy theorist. And DOGE looks a lot like Mao's Red Guards smashing everything that the Chinese people had held sacred. DOGE is also cutting up their security and intelligence apparatus and Musk is openly questioning the value of the very aircraft platform being debated here.

What's to say that the Trump administration doesn't compromise the F-35 by offering it up to a Russia friendly nation? Say... India. Or increasingly Saudi Arabia. Or the Emirates. Heck, the Israelis are openly pining for the Russians to come back to Syria. I'm not sure that Netanyahu might not pull an Erdogan with Putin after he's gotten everything he can out of Trump. Just gotta get that attack on Iran in first.

And what's to say that Musk doesn't win the day and we see future development in the F-35 substantially cut short, or even orders substantially cut. The guy can fire nuclear weapons workers and apparently have no consequences but an "Oopsie!".

Exclusively buying F-35s is basically tying us to all that crazy for the next 30 years with no other option or back up. We have to buy some F-35s. But there's no way at this point, that we should be buying only F-35s.
 
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Arguing with Trump in public is a bad idea for two reasons. He doubles down, and Musks goons come and burn your houses down.

Serbians put out half a million on to the streets of Belgrade to protest their Russian stooge. That's in a country of 6.5M.

Americans, meanwhile, fear angry tweets from the guy they elected.

All of this is really not helping the argument that we should be maximizing purchases from the US. We're watching the US basically devolve into an Orbanesque autocracy and kakistocracy in real time. And there's really nothing that says this ends in 4 years or 8 years or 12 years. The following generation looks even worse. What's the gym bro Defence Secretary or Jewish Space Laser lady's foreign policy? What about Jr or Ivanka? We're all going to be left wondering what their opinions are, of the F-35 and on Canadian sovereignty in 2028. What might President Sean Hannity or President Joe Rogan think in 2032? Because this is who the US is now.
 
So with the F-35, P8 and potentially a Wedgetail. Will Canada be looking closely at the Loyal Wingman idea as a force multiplier?
 
At this time. And we've already paid for 16. The question is:

1) Do we need 88 frames? Original requirement was 65 for NORAD and NATO commitments. So can the growth go elsewhere?
Given the fact that the RCAF had 138 CF-18's and we've still ran into availability issues which required us to purchase nearly 20 additional airframes/aircraft, I do not think the 88 airframe figure is sufficient and you can likely guess where my opinion lies as to the original 65 figure. Canada is the second largest nation on Earth, a prolific NATO partner and increasingly are pushing our support for partners in Asia. It does not fly with me that 88 airframes alone are sufficient, let alone 65 in this climate.

2) Do we need 65 frames? Split the NATO and NORAD requirements and the hard coded NORAD fleet is probably 40-45 frames. Let's not forget that Eurofighter didn't bid and Dassault pulled out because of concerns meeting CAN/US security requirements. If that requirement isn't relevant for the aircraft committed to supporting NORAD, well that creates new options.
As I stated above, 65 airframes is woefully insufficient. 88 airframes are likely workable for NORAD and some limited NATO missions but as the airframes get older and availability drops, especially as we look towards Asia, I do not even think that figure is sufficient. I'd like to see us coming back to something like the 140 that we had with the CF-18 purchase, maybe even 160 if you include the additional option that we never ended up exercising. Obviously the fleet would be highly stretched to maintain, pilot and operate this many aircraft in its current state, but I think it is something to consider.

There's some options here:

1) Ignore it all. Accept the high risk of policy control from Washington. Take 88 Panthers.

2) Make room for a future more capable second fleet. Cut the order to 65 as originally envisioned. Try and get into one of the 6th gen programs. Take delivery in the late 30s or early 40s as capability growth.

3) Immediate second fleet. Cut the Panther order to just 45 frames. Immediately begin negotiations with Eurofighter and Dassault for a 45 frame order. Maybe even consider used frames that have 15 years left in them. Three used fleet could even be a bridge to the 6th gen fleet.
1.) As unpopular with the frothing nationalists as this option current is, I would put forward that it is the only sensible option here. There has been no inkling of even talk from Washington that anything touching the F-35 is on the table, and the cascading effect that any attacks or pressure on the Canadian F-35 program has for the 20~ other operators abroad is apocalyptic. The US has been pushing for Canada to pull its weight on NATO and NORAD, our F-35 procurement handily does this while being the most interoperable system with the US, and also being the best bang for buck capability. People should remember that even if we lose our collective minds and cancel the F-35 procurement entirely, the Canadians and Americans will still have to work together for NORAD duties. We both need each other and such a breakdown is entirely off the table. I personally think we should be looking towards purchasing additional F-35A's if at all possible in the future.

2.) I don't trust this option for a few reasons. All of these European next gen fighter programs are unproven, none of the partners have actually developed a modern stealth fighters through to service. Looking at the American NGAD program potential cost figures, you are looking at a per unit cost of like $300m USD, roughly 3-4 F-35A's. Such a figure will eventually come down however, it will fundamentally remain high due to the advanced nature of these platforms and their low adoption rates compared to the F-35's huge economies of scale. With how desperate the Europeans are for fighters, how many partners/customers already exist and the charitable nature of their timelines, I don't think a late 30's to early 40's RCAF 6th gen deliver date is especially realistic. How many 6th gen aircraft will a future RCAF procure when they could be individually worth 2-4 F-35's? You also have to consider their increased size and complexity above the F-35, that is a logistical burden alongside the operation of two airframes.

Given these facts, I could easily see a future Canadian govt throwing that expensive idea aside. I think you could argue reasonably as well that 6th generation fighters are entirely overkill for Canadian requirements, and the F-35 is more than sufficient for the foreseeable future.

3.) Very bad idea, used airframes never work out well and the political baggage that would bring would be substantial. The Europeans are scrambling to have their own forces be brought up to a modern and reasonable state, are they going to give us half decent fighters? Or are we going to be given the table scraps of the Rafale and Eurofighter fleet? Both fighters seemingly have many orders already on the books and no solid timeline for delivery, let alone throwing nearly 50 additional RCAF fighters into the fray. At the end of the day, you'll have a bunch of used and/or new airframes with limited longevity even for our NORAD roles. Everybody loves to point and laugh at the Russians for their lack of stealth fighters now however, expecting that to last forever is a bet I wouldn't take. The F-35 can reasonably meet and exceed their potential aircraft, I do not expect souped up last generation European fighters to be doing the same. Dealing with the training, logistics and infrastructure issues of operating a conga line of CF-18's, CF-35's, used European fighters, new European fighters and potentially 6th generation European fighters sounds like a rife schedule to be interrupted by changing political attitudes towards defence in the future.

Keep it simple stupid applies here quite well, which seems to fall back to the F-35.

We're Canada. Let's be honest. We'll bitch and moan about the risk and then go with option 1 because every other option requires a ton of work on the part of DND, the CAF and industry. But if we're being honest about the risk from the US and the utility of using defence purchases as leverage, we should be looking at something like option #2 at least.
Hopefully we do, all of these other options seem like various flights of fancy in a situation where everybody is high off the nationalism supply going around right now. We can make leverage elsewhere where realistic and good alternatives to US purchases exist, the fighter program really isn't one of those.
 
And our commitment to the Indo-Pacific may end up being mostly naval.

Our commitment to the Indo-Pacific is, and always was meant to continue being, mostly naval. We're not sending soldiers to defend whomever against Chinese soldiers, nor do we have or plan to have any forward deployed air forces.
 
Our commitment to the Indo-Pacific is, and always was meant to continue being, mostly naval. We're not sending soldiers to defend whomever against Chinese soldiers, nor do we have or plan to have any forward deployed air forces.

I think there's some who imagine we'll have significant air deployments. That's why they want a fighter force that can join the Americans fighting the Chinese. 6 months ago I'd have been onboard this. But now? We need to triage the security threats and our resource commitments. And the Pacific is below home and Europe.
 
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