The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

[ytz]

I’m still having a hard time justifying NGAD, I’m pretty sure when the math is all done that building a few hundred more F-22 would have been a more efficient and practical usage of taxpayers money.

I’m all for technology and pushing the envelope, but when the tier 2 Fighter (F-35) is generationally ahead of others, does replacing the tier 1 Fighter (F-22) make sense?

Few points.

1) As pointed out in the video, maintaining the industrial base and skill requires continuous development. Don't develop a new fighter and those industrial and design skills atrophy.

2) The industrial base to build new F-22s is gone. Restarting that was estimated at double digit billions. And still no guarantee that it would provide sufficient overmatch against recently released Chinese platforms.

3) The Chinese are closing the gap substantially quickly and there's worries about the balance in the 2030s. And for them, they don't even have to contest the US globally. Just in their backyard. See this (now 2 yr old) analysis on the air power balance:

 

[Czech_pivo]

When it comes to the Chinese and the Russians, I think it might be best to remember this quote by Stalin - ‘Quantity has a Quality all its own.’

 

[OldSolduer]

When it comes to the Chinese and the Russians, I think it might be best to remember this quote by Stalin - ‘Quantity has a Quality all its own.’

Correct. Arguably the Germans had one of the best tanks in WW2, but too few of them. Same with their soldiers. The Soviets had millions of soldiers.

The Americans had the Sherman - but actual shiploads of them.

 

[PrairieFella]

Correct. Arguably the Germans had one of the best tanks in WW2, but too few of them. Same with their soldiers. The Soviets had millions of soldiers.

The Americans had the Sherman - but actual shiploads of them.

This is actually a myth. The  wunderwaffe tanks had terrible reliability, poor mobility and couldn't be supplied. The Soviet IS series was vastly superior and late war Shermans like the E8 or Firefly had zero problems with Tiger 1s or Panthers. Heck, the British Comet had an early APDS round that could frontal Tiger IIs.

 

[ytz]

When it comes to the Chinese and the Russians, I think it might be best to remember this quote by Stalin - ‘Quantity has a Quality all its own.’

Watch the video. The Chinese are pumping out quantity and quality. They are actually learning and increasingly adopting Western practices to close the gap. Including continuous learning and improvement. And unlike the Russians they don't brag loudly. Stuff takes a long time to leak. And even then you're unsure. This is very different from the Russians who will flog every demonstrator they make.

 

[Good2Golf]

This is very different from the Russians who will flog every demonstrator they make.

…until It breaks…during the May Day parade in front of the Kremlin…

Russia's newest tank breaks down during 2015 parade rehearsal

The T-14 Armata, of which Russia has built at least seven due to the procurement programme being beset by financial problems, broke down in a rehearsal for the May 9 victory day parade in 2015.

metro.co.uk

 

[FJAG]

Did anyone else note the little tidbit announcement from the White House that Boeing will be the main contractor for the USAF's new 6th generation (NGAD) fighter which some lickspittle general (and if you believe that . . .) has decided to call the F-47?

Eyeing China threat, Trump announces Boeing wins contract for secretive future fighter jet

Known as Next Generation Air Dominance, or NGAD, the manned jet will serve as quarterback to a fleet of future drone aircraft designed to be able to penetrate the air defenses of China and any other potential foes.

apnews.com

 

[PrairieFella]

Did anyone else note the little tidbit announcement from the White House that Boeing will be the main contractor for the USAF's new 6th generation (NGAD) fighter which some lickspittle general (and if you believe that . . .) has decided to call the F-47?

F-47, callsign FELON.

 

[Maxman1]

F-47, callsign FELON.

Paint the nose orange.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Did anyone else note the little tidbit announcement from the White House that Boeing will be the main contractor for the USAF's new 6th generation (NGAD) fighter which some lickspittle general (and if you believe that . . .) has decided to call the F-47?

Because 'P-47' would be a pretty high bar for Boeing to vault these days

 

[Quirky]

Would be interesting how the supply chains work with a Rafale, I hear getting parts for the 295 from Europe is....a challenge even for basic consumables.

Dassault Aviation Offers Rafale to Portugal, Canada as Alternatives to F-35

Last week, French president advocated for European-made military systems to replace American products

www.defensemirror.com

 

[Maxman1]

I've heard we can't even get parts for the Leopard 2 in Europe, they have to be shipped to Rheinmettal Canada, then shipped to Latvia.

 

[MJP]

I've heard we can't even get parts for the Leopard 2 in Europe, they have to be shipped to Rheinmettal Canada, then shipped to Latvia.

That is how contractual obligations work. Generally for CA fleets we buy many parts at once in larger quantities, usually only having them delivered to 3rd line facilities ( depots or coastal BLogs) to allow for distribution across the CAF and to maintain quality control/technical inspections, plus a bunch of other sundry 3rd line functions that are blind to the rest of the CAF. If DND/CAF want to change the end delivery address of some parts then they can through contract amendments.

That said 2nd line facilities especially those on operations are generally not set up to do all the 3rd line activities required (it isn't just recieving the parts) so it is a trade-off. We absolutely could received parts in theater if we needed too, but the juice needs to be with the squeeze.

The better way to approach this is have healthy theater holdings with backfill coming from a regional support warehouse like the OSH in Germany. That way if we need, the OSH can become a 3rd line recieving facility and/or continue to be replenished by 3rd line in Canada.

 

[childs56]

That is how contractual obligations work. Generally for CA fleets we buy many parts at once in larger quantities, usually only having them delivered to 3rd line facilities ( depots or coastal BLogs) to allow for distribution across the CAF and to maintain quality control/technical inspections, plus a bunch of other sundry 3rd line functions that are blind to the rest of the CAF. If DND/CAF want to change the end delivery address of some parts then they can through contract amendments.

That said 2nd line facilities especially those on operations are generally not set up to do all the 3rd line activities required (it isn't just recieving the parts) so it is a trade-off. We absolutely could received parts in theater if we needed too, but the juice needs to be with the squeeze.

The better way to approach this is have healthy theater holdings with backfill coming from a regional support warehouse like the OSH in Germany. That way if we need, the OSH can become a 3rd line recieving facility and/or continue to be replenished by 3rd line in Canada.

That is a garbage way of doing things. If the contract states the part must come through the supplier in Canada then so be it. That supplier can send a person to Latvia to twiddle their thumbs doing parts person.
Or do like many companies do, get the part fix the machine. Let the office figure out who gets paid what.
But to have a tank or other equipment down, have to order a part, have it shipped across the ocean, clear customs. Then be shipped back. Not a very efficient program at all.

I've heard we can't even get parts for the Leopard 2 in Europe, they have to be shipped to Rheinmettal Canada, then shipped to Latvia.

Thats one of the large reasons Canadian Procurement is such a mess.