I think you mean Lot 15. That's fine. All our aircraft will be TR3 and have sidekick. And every TR3 hardware aircraft can get Block IV software. The issue is that international customers are excluded from getting the APG-85 radar. Five Eyes have been arguing that it should at least be an option for us. No indication yet that it will be shared. So the Americans are already doing the thing where they don't share with their allies....
The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
- Thread starter WingsofFury
- Start date
I think you mean Lot 15. That's fine. All our aircraft will be TR3 and have sidekick. And every TR3 hardware aircraft can get Block IV software. The issue is that international customers are excluded from getting the APG-85 radar. Five Eyes have been arguing that it should at least be an option for us. No indication yet that it will be shared. So the Americans are already doing the thing where they don't share with their allies....
KevinB
Army.ca Relic
- Reaction score
- 24,630
- Points
- 1,260
FWIW, its Congressional restrictions on the F-22, XF-47, and the DU armor on vehicles, and of course Nuclear technology issues.
It is theoretically possible for a country to get stuff like that, but would require HASC and SASC, as well as possibly the Intelligence Committees to authorize.
There are also contingency operations to ensure that in the event of a major conflict that certain technologies can be quickly and effectively transferred to allies to enable them to build advanced capabilities as well.
It is theoretically possible for a country to get stuff like that, but would require HASC and SASC, as well as possibly the Intelligence Committees to authorize.
There are also contingency operations to ensure that in the event of a major conflict that certain technologies can be quickly and effectively transferred to allies to enable them to build advanced capabilities as well.
- Reaction score
- 9,761
- Points
- 1,160
I wonder if the LockMart outreach is a result of fear of loss of interest. Both abroad and at home.
Buyers abroad are concerned that when they need the kit LockMart will find itself in the same situation that Rheinmetall found itself on Gepard Ammunition - the Swiss wouldn't release it for use in a war zone, and that applied to stocks held by third parties. Leos. Same thing. Taurus. Same thing. Storm Shadows / Scalps. Same thing.
They would also be concerned that The Doge gets his way and shuts down the F35 leaving everybody stranded.
Both those prospects would be of concern to LockMart and its share holders.
....
Possibility?
LockMart diversifies internationally. Makes it look more like Ford. Ford is widely produced around the world, supplying vehicles tailored to meet local markets and stays competitive. They send money back to the US and get support from there but they don't force US models on the international market.
Is there a possibility of LockMart decentralizing? Of making kit for the locals? Of making non-ITAR versions of their kit? Trump might have opened the door to that with his talk of two-(multi-?)tiered F47s.
....
As to the question of buying all 88 aircraft rather than some smaller number, rather than betting on replacing Gen 5 with some Gen 4s that are stale-dated or Gen 6s that are a ways down the road how about placing a cheaper bet on a future option?
For a long-range Quick Reaction Force - Bomarc on steroids, and ones that can actually reach out and touch without needing a nuclear warhead.
aviationweek.com
www.kratosdefense.com
Safe bet? Who knows but they are the only one in the field that has been doing what they have been doing for decades, not months.
There have been hints that Kratos has been in the Hypersonic business for a while.
The Big Guys seem to have struggled with Hypersonics. Meanwhile smaller players, like Kratos and Nammo, have played away at the edges with smaller ventures.
Buyers abroad are concerned that when they need the kit LockMart will find itself in the same situation that Rheinmetall found itself on Gepard Ammunition - the Swiss wouldn't release it for use in a war zone, and that applied to stocks held by third parties. Leos. Same thing. Taurus. Same thing. Storm Shadows / Scalps. Same thing.
They would also be concerned that The Doge gets his way and shuts down the F35 leaving everybody stranded.
Both those prospects would be of concern to LockMart and its share holders.
....
Possibility?
LockMart diversifies internationally. Makes it look more like Ford. Ford is widely produced around the world, supplying vehicles tailored to meet local markets and stays competitive. They send money back to the US and get support from there but they don't force US models on the international market.
Is there a possibility of LockMart decentralizing? Of making kit for the locals? Of making non-ITAR versions of their kit? Trump might have opened the door to that with his talk of two-(multi-?)tiered F47s.
....
As to the question of buying all 88 aircraft rather than some smaller number, rather than betting on replacing Gen 5 with some Gen 4s that are stale-dated or Gen 6s that are a ways down the road how about placing a cheaper bet on a future option?
For a long-range Quick Reaction Force - Bomarc on steroids, and ones that can actually reach out and touch without needing a nuclear warhead.
Kratos Reveals Secret Hypersonic Drone Program | Aviation Week Network
All further details of the Kratos project—including the design, performance and schedule—cannot yet be released.
aviationweek.com
Hypersonic and Ballistic Systems
www.kratosdefense.com
Safe bet? Who knows but they are the only one in the field that has been doing what they have been doing for decades, not months.
There have been hints that Kratos has been in the Hypersonic business for a while.
The Big Guys seem to have struggled with Hypersonics. Meanwhile smaller players, like Kratos and Nammo, have played away at the edges with smaller ventures.
Yes, Lot.I will stand by what I said. Start 6th gen negotiations immediately. And then based on outcome, we can decide whether 88 or 65.
LockMart wants guarantees? Cool. Force them to provision critical spares in Canada or even move some of that manufacturing here. And force the US to include the latest tech. Like the APG-85. Those should be the minimum conditions to avoid an order cut.
LockMart wants guarantees? Cool. Force them to provision critical spares in Canada or even move some of that manufacturing here. And force the US to include the latest tech. Like the APG-85. Those should be the minimum conditions to avoid an order cut.
You keep thinking this is only about capability. It's not. Every development block costs almost as much as an entire aircraft development program. Block IV was supposedly pushing $20B. There is even discussions on Block V including a new engine.
It's not a coincidence that the F-35 is only $85M and still delivers that much capability. This value comes from a large amortization base. Every anticipated order cut, makes that base smaller. Cuts would drive up the unit costs for each Block. And that may well mean the LockMart has to eat losses or increase flyaway costs, which may well see American orders scaled back.
That's why they want a commitment from Canada to the full planned buy. It's the only way to firm up their accounting and reduce uncertainty. And knowing that, it's time for Canada to squeeze every single concession possible.
Colin Parkinson
Army.ca Relic
- Reaction score
- 13,414
- Points
- 1,160
As I recall Canada and a few other countries are already making components of the fighter, not sure of the percentage made outside of the US?
- Reaction score
- 9,761
- Points
- 1,160
Turkey's involvement from the get-go always surprised me.
Maybe Trump is willing to sell because somebody has convinced him that the F35 is yesterday's technology. True or not.
Cool. So the Trump Administration has no issues with Russia getting detailed radar signature of the F-35 through Turkish owned S-400s.
Add one more reason to diversify.
- Reaction score
- 9,761
- Points
- 1,160
Canada should maybe take a lesson from Turkiye.
They have discarded cost efficiency to buy whatever is being offered. F16s, F35s and Typhoons. Russian SAMs and NASAMs. They learn.
And they they create their own local solutions, often in competition.
TAI TF Kaan - Wikipedia
SİPER - Wikipedia
This doesn't mean much. Critical components are mostly manufactured in the US. They ship non-critical work (mostly structural) elsewhere, based on their needs to win contracts. It doesn't really add much to any of those customer countries. We're not substantially adding intellectual property. Or getting real vetos over who the US sells the F-35 too. This is even true for the UK, the largest partner.
This is not the case for the European shared programs where original partners actually get valuable work share. 6th gen jets maybe double or triple the price of an F-35 and I still think it would be worthwhile for a Canada to participate, both for industrial and military reasons.
armrdsoul77
Full Member
- Reaction score
- 560
- Points
- 960
Panther?
In case anyone else was wondering "Panther" is a nickname given to
the F-35 by the USAF's Weapons School.
The Air Force's Elite Weapons School Has Given The F-35 A New Nickname
In case anyone else was wondering "Panther" is a nickname given to
the F-35 by the USAF's Weapons School.
The Air Force's Elite Weapons School Has Given The F-35 A New Nickname
KevinB
Army.ca Relic
- Reaction score
- 24,630
- Points
- 1,260
Turkey already let us go over the S-400 in detail, and I think you will see the S-400 out of service in Turkey as part of the F-35 acquisition.
I’m significantly more skeptical that the Europeans can build an actual Gen 5 fighter, and not another 4.5 (ish with a tail wind), let alone anything beyond that.
We hope. Let's see.
I'm not. I'm skeptical they can build real 6th gen. But they have the tech and industrial base to build 5th gen. And most of them are F-35 partners with substantial experience. Especially the GCAP program with the UK, Japan and Italy (which literally has an F-35 FAL). I strongly suggest watching Preun's interview with Prof.Justin Bronk of RUSI. Having met the Prof at least year's RCAF symposium I can safely say he knows more about air power, aviation history and the industrial capacity of aviation than most of us could learn in a lifetime.
You'll be happy to know that Prof. Bronk did have the highest confidence in NGAD. That should scratch you itch.
KevinB
Army.ca Relic
- Reaction score
- 24,630
- Points
- 1,260
Roger that thanks.
I’m still having a hard time justifying NGAD, I’m pretty sure when the math is all done that building a few hundred more F-22 would have been a more efficient and practical usage of taxpayers money.
I’m all for technology and pushing the envelope, but when the tier 2 Fighter (F-35) is generationally ahead of others, does replacing the tier 1 Fighter (F-22) make sense?
Czech_pivo
Army.ca Veteran
- Reaction score
- 3,075
- Points
- 1,260
Only if the Chinese are pushing the envelope.
KevinB
Army.ca Relic
- Reaction score
- 24,630
- Points
- 1,260
Color me not impressed by their envelopes
Several other threat concerns/claims have been a big ball of nothing with vastly exaggerated capabilities than reality, and while I’m not read into anything related to their aerospace, based on other things, I’d rate it similar to Russia (some aspect above that exceedingly low bar, and some below)…
- Reaction score
- 1,813
- Points
- 1,140
Not sure where you get your info but China is not Russia.Color me not impressed by their envelopes
Several other threat concerns/claims have been a big ball of nothing with vastly exaggerated capabilities than reality, and while I’m not read into anything related to their aerospace, based on other things, I’d rate it similar to Russia (some aspect above that exceedingly low bar, and some below)…
KevinB
Army.ca Relic
- Reaction score
- 24,630
- Points
- 1,260
As I said I’m not in the Aerospace world. But on land, well it’s underwhelming.
Average Westerner who is clueless about reality and will happily discount the threat to prevent injury to their ego.
