Hamas invaded Israel 2023

[Furniture]

Some fairly disturbing results from the IDF Air campaign in Gaza.

https://x.com/Nrg8000/status/1712505217529659711?s=20

The secret to preventing it is to not build legitimate military targets under/in homes...

If the people of Gaza don't want to face the IDF, they should take the fight to the monsters that brought this to their homes.

 

[KevinB]

The secret to preventing it is to not build legitimate military targets under/in homes...

If the people of Gaza don't want to face the IDF, they should take the fight to the monsters that brought this to their homes.

Hamas is more than willing to kill argumentative Palestinians who disrupt them as Israelis.

I totally understand the Israeli rage and requirements to respond. I however think that in the long run, unless they plan on totally wiping out Gaza, Lebanon, Syria and Iran, that the massive destruction via air power and artillery in Gaza is counterproductive.

Just because an area may have lost its legal protections due to use by Hamas doesn’t make it morally right to inflict mass casualties on the civilian population as well.

Frankly I think a lot of Israeli rage should also be directed internally at their government who ignore all the warnings about this.

I support Israel, but not to the point that I ignore excesses.

 

[daftandbarmy]

H-hour is on its way...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1712664629065793885

 

[GR66]

The secret to preventing it is to not build legitimate military targets under/in homes...

If the people of Gaza don't want to face the IDF, they should take the fight to the monsters that brought this to their homes.

Some fairly disturbing results from the IDF Air campaign in Gaza.

https://x.com/Nrg8000/status/1712505217529659711?s=20

It's well known that Hamas has built tunnels under sites like Mosques, Schools, Hospitals and residential buildings explicitly for the purpose of deterring the Israelis from attacking them for fear of causing civilian casualties.

It's interesting to me that reportedly the Israelis have been making extensive use of bunker buster bombs in Gaza in order to take out the infrastructure under these buildings (and potentially collapsing nearby underground structures). Presumably it's exactly these underground facilities where the hostages seized from Gaza could potentially be held. This suggests to me that the Israeli response is focused on the destruction of Hamas even at the risk of killing some of the hostages in the process. This doesn't bode well for Gaza in my mind.

Reportedly Gazans have been told to concentrate in the more densely populated areas of the Gaza strip. Makes me wonder if the plan is to separate Gaza City proper from the rest of the Gaza Strip by occupying a middle section of the Gaza Strip in order to be able to control any movement of people or materials from Egypt into Gaza City. It would be an easier task to bisect the Gaza Strip than to try to fight an urban battle in Gaza City.

Edited to add picture of Gaza Strip

 

[KevinB]

It's well known that Hamas has built tunnels under sites like Mosques, Schools, Hospitals and residential buildings explicitly for the purpose of deterring the Israelis from attacking them for fear of causing civilian casualties.

It's interesting to me that reportedly the Israelis have been making extensive use of bunker buster bombs in Gaza in order to take out the infrastructure under these buildings (and potentially collapsing nearby underground structures). Presumably it's exactly these underground facilities where the hostages seized from Gaza could potentially be held. This suggests to me that the Israeli response is focused on the destruction of Hamas even at the risk of killing some of the hostages in the process. This doesn't bode well for Gaza in my mind.

Reportedly Gazans have been told to concentrate in the more densely populated areas of the Gaza strip. Makes me wonder if the plan is to separate Gaza City proper from the rest of the Gaza Strip by occupying a middle section of the Gaza Strip in order to be able to control any movement of people or materials from Egypt into Gaza City. It would be an easier task to bisect the Gaza Strip than to try to fight an urban battle in Gaza City.

Israel doesn’t negotiate, and their idea of a Hostage Negotiator is spelled JDAM.
They have no interest in a Mogadishu like street battle trying to rescue hostages and I believe feel that bombing them is most likely the most humane option.

 

[GR66]

Israel doesn’t negotiate, and their idea of a Hostage Negotiator is spelled JDAM.
They have no interest in a Mogadishu like street battle trying to rescue hostages and I believe feel that bombing them is most likely the most humane option.

That's not historically true. Israel released 1,027 prisoners (Gilad Shalit) to get the release of a single Israeli soldier being held hostage by Hamas in 2011. I think the bombing of Hamas sites in Gaza (6,000 strike and counting by current reports) marks a change in Israeli policy. They seem willing to potentially put Israeli hostages at risk by striking underground Hamas facilities even though there is a risk that hostages might be in those locations.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

 

[Brad Sallows]

At the end of the day we moved a large group of people into the area in the late 40s who proceeded to evict the people actually living in the area based off some questionable land claim from 2000 years ago.

Not exactly. The early years were characterized by Jews moving themselves in, and the existing inhabitants weren't expected to become refugees in a foreign country.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Just because an area may have lost its legal protections due to use by Hamas doesn’t make it morally right to inflict mass casualties on the civilian population as well.

What's the alternative?

"Well, they've all gone to ground and burrowed in deeply among the civil population and its infrastructure. I suppose we're done for this round."

Sure, I exaggerate for effect. But the extreme alternative is basically to accept the calls for immediate ceasefire. The deaths and destruction of the attack can't be undone, but further death and destruction can be avoided by simply standing down. This makes complete sense as a utilitarian calculation. The weakness, of course, is that enough cycles of "attack-then-ceasefire" will do more damage than one "win-this-one-and-all-the-next-ones" war.

 

[KevinB]

What's the alternative?

"Well, they've all gone to ground and burrowed in deeply among the civil population and its infrastructure. I suppose we're done for this round."

Sure, I exaggerate for effect. But the extreme alternative is basically to accept the calls for immediate ceasefire. The deaths and destruction of the attack can't be undone, but further death and destruction can be avoided by simply standing down. This makes complete sense as a utilitarian calculation. The weakness, of course, is that enough cycles of "attack-then-ceasefire" will do more damage than one "win-this-one-and-all-the-next-ones" war.

I’m not suggesting a ceasefire.
I’m simply suggesting a little less collateral damage in urban areas should be the goal.

Which would mean ground forces conducting cordons with call outs - as opposed to leveling entire neighborhoods first.

Dropping a 500lb bomb on a roof, then following it up with a 2,000lb bomb so you knock down the entire structure just seems a little damage oriented.

Secondly using White Phosphorus airburst against civilians is something we expect from Russia, it’s being used as an incendiary and shouldn’t be tolerated.

 

[brihard]

H-hour is on its way...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1712664629065793885

Ugh. Historically in various conflicts at various scales, this is a tried and true prelude to entering an area in force and not really caring who you kill because it’s presumed anyone still there stayed by choice and is a combatant…

 

[ueo]

That's not really new though...

 

[KevinB]

Tom Coopers take Israel/Palestine, 13 October 2023: Peace through kinetic Solutions

 

[Kirkhill]

Distance from the Gaza border to the sea at Wadi Gaza on the southern edge of Gaza City is about 6 km. South of the city is an area of about 6x6 km that is relatively open farm land and olive groves.

Most of the worst atrocities reported seem to have been in the north at Sderot, Kfar Aza, Be'eri and Re'im.

A drive across the northern border and then another down Wadi Gaza would isolate Gaza City and permit the establishment of a tight cordon of the city.

If Hamas has been using the Palestinians as human shields then they are likely to have concentrated their administrative structures in Gaza.

The bombing of the City is probably already encouraging the locals to move away from the bombing to less bombed areas.

If the Israelis can establish a presence on the Wadi Gaza line then they can start sieving out the population.

Cordon and search is a well practiced skill set in the area. Although Dare Wilson's version didn't involve Lancaster runs.

 

[daftandbarmy]

If the Israelis can establish a presence on the Wadi Gaza line then they can start sieving out the population.

Cordon and search is a well practiced skill set in the area. Although Dare Wilson's version didn't involve Lancaster runs.

My guess is that this 'sieving out' process will involve the killing, or capture and internment, of most fighting age males. A weaponized civilian population like Gaza's will have little hope of rehabilitation.

I'm also guessing that Hamas will continue to fight it out and we'll see some 'squirters', which might extend the conflict into Egypt etc with all the attendant political ramifications.

 

[Kirkhill]

My guess is that this 'sieving out' process will involve the killing, or capture and internment, of most fighting age males. A weaponized civilian population like Gaza's will have little hope of rehabilitation.

I'm also guessing that Hamas will continue to fight it out and we'll see some 'squirters', which might extend the conflict into Egypt etc with all the attendant political ramifications.

There were alternatives to The Maze. I wonder how the Israelis rate the Long Kesh solution.

 

[Kirkhill]

Palestinians who want to “save their lives” must follow Israel’s warning to flee as the possibility of a land invasion looms, Israeli Defence Minister Yoav Gallant said on Friday.

Mr Gallant said that Israel is “fighting for its future” as he spoke during a news conference with his US counterpart Lloyd Austin.

“This is a war for the existence of Israel as a prosperous state, as a democratic state, as the homeland of the Jewish people,” Mr Gallant said.

He went on to pledge that Israel would win in the fight against Hamas.

“We are fighting for our home. We are fighting for our future,” he said. “The path will be long, but ultimately I promise you we will win.”

It follows orders by Hamas to ignore Israeli advice to evacuate towards southern Gaza.

Rock. Meet "Hard Place".

Israel-Palestine latest news: Get out now to save your lives, Israel tells Gazans

Palestinians who want to “save their lives” must follow Israel’s warning to flee as the possibility of a land invasion looms, Yoav Gallant, Israel’s defence minister, said on Friday.

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[daftandbarmy]

There were alternatives to The Maze. I wonder how the Israelis rate the Long Kesh solution.

I'm sure that the Israeli version of internment will be quite a bit different from the British version, such as relatively few traced terrorists will actually make it that far

 

[Kirkhill]

At the Al Aqsa Mosque on Friday

Israel-Palestine latest news: Get out now to save your lives, Israel tells Gazans

Palestinians who want to “save their lives” must follow Israel’s warning to flee as the possibility of a land invasion looms, Yoav Gallant, Israel’s defence minister, said on Friday.

www.telegraph.co.uk

Those troops look to be pretty tired already and the initial shock and adrenaline rush will have worn off.

 

[Kirkhill]

Israelis clearing one of their bases taken by Hamas.