When Afghan tempers explode

[X-mo-1979]

What if we treated our emergency vehicles, with lights flashing, with contempt?  Yes, it's a nuisance when you just HAVE to get that litre of milk, or whatever, but those vehicles, with lights flashing, do have important things to do.

Now, suppose you are in Afghanistan.  You are driving, and then you see a military convoy coming over.  Pull over, get out of the way.  They are fighting a war (don't you know), and they just may be on their way into combat.

Comparing courtesy of the road here in North America with the rules of the road "over there" is just as sensible as comparing weather patterns on Venus with the intricacies of high school social life.  I could only imagine the outcry if those "Ugly Americans" didn't have security up, and some poor Afghan drove by, hitting a piece of that ordnance, causing injuries, or worse, death.  "Why didn't they protect us?"  :

Well said.
If everyone is so sick of having to wait for convoy's to get on with their business,maybe they all could start assisting the ANA/ANP and get rid of these taliban.The we all could travel without worry.It aint us blowing civilians up.

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

I have to agree with Piper.

I don't want to bash the Yanks but I don't think they have any business policing a country.  They are amazing at closing with and destroying but they don't quite have the serve and protect thing down.  

I think there is something inherent in our training that makes it very clear what is right and what is wrong in combat and peace keeping.   Everything I can gather from the American service men and women (that I have met personally and seen on TV) makes me think they don't quite get it.  

This is just the way I see things.  I could be a little biased but I truly believe we the CF are steps above most armed forces when it comes to dealing with people.    

Cheers

You seem to be painting with a fairly broad brush.  Have you been on operations in country?

As someone who has caused the odd inconvenience to Afghan road traffic I can sympathize with the leader in the story but I also feel bad for the motorists.  Still, at the end of the day that leader is responsible for everybody's safety and mission accomplishment.  While getting verbally abusive does not necessarily help the situation, it isn't like the big, bad leader in the convoy went up to her stopped car outside the cordon and started yelling at her interpreter for the heck of it.  Intentionally entering an established cordon is not the best thing to do in my view anywhere in the world and especially not in Afghanistan. 

We should certainly be as polite as possible and cause the minimum of disruption.  Along with that we should try to see it all from the local's point of view. That being said, sometimes you have to select the "least bad" course of action. 

 

[RHFC_piper]

We should certainly be as polite as possible and cause the minimum of disruption.  Along with that we should try to see it all from the local's point of view. That being said, sometimes you have to select the "least bad" course of action. 

This is, essentially, the point I was getting at.

The way I see it is; The mission is the most important, of course, but that doesn't mean we have to get it done by any means necessary...  As Tango put it; Select the least bad, the least disruptive, the least intrusive method possible.  If this means, based on the scenario, that civilians have to be held up for a while as a convoy fixes a potentially dangerous situation, so be it.  But, efforts should be made to minimize the effects; ie. letting an ambulance by and possibly working with local authority to redirect traffic (which would, invariably, be to our benefit... No traffic = less chance of VBIED). 

I hope that make some kinda sense. 

 

[armyvern]

It's all so easy when it isn't one of your own loved ones in the back of the emergency vehicle possibly in a life-threatening condition.

Just as soldiers want to protect themselves and their buddies ... citizens want to look out for the best interests of their own loved ones too. I guess, in a war zone, it's a matter of who has priority for looking out for their own.

It really sucks when soldiers have to assume that every vehicle is a threat until proven otherwise, or that every citizen is a threat until proven otherwise. Or that every ambulance may be done up as a VBIED until proven otherwise -- especially so if that ambulance being held up carries yet another innocent victim of the latest IED blast by the Taliban. I can imagine how I'd feel as a parent if it were my child (for example) in the back of an ambulance who was in critical need of care but was held up by people there to help them. It's a frustrating situation for everyone -- not just the soldiers. And you can't fault human feelings of compassion for the one laying in the back of the ambulance needing care either, that's an instinctive and normal reaction. Usually emergency vehicles with lights flashing indicate an emergency, not a threat.

Sadly, the Taliban are one fucked up bunch and normal human instincts will get people killed. Soldiers and innocent civilians. That sucks. Not a nice situation to be in at all - either as the soldier or that innocent civilian trying to get to the hospital.

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

I see your point, but I didn't say that it was easy.  The soldiers are also trying to protect everybody in that situation. Letting everybody crowd around invites a catastrophy for both soldiers and innocents in that situation since they are are fixed target.

 

[McG]

The way I see it is; The mission is the most important, ...

It is also important to remember that the mission is defeating the insurgency.  In the conduct of all the many tasks & operations executed, it is important to ensure we are not sacrificing the end goal in order to achieve today's milestone.

In fighting an insurgency, the civillian population is the vital ground.  Insurgents will thrive if they hold the popular support of the nation, but they may also thrive amongst a population that is indifferent & sees no gains subverting insurgent activities.  Often you will hear speak of the importance of morally isolating the insurgence or driving a wedge between insurgents and the population.  This is essential.  It is also essential that we avoid things which will drive a similar wedge between our own forces and the population.  This is not to say we need to "win hearts & minds" and become liked by the Afghans, but we must earn and retain their trust and respect.

It seems to me that the article described a situation which had the potential of eroding away from that strategic aim of defeating the insurgency.  I won't judge the forces on the ground; I can't.  There is by far not enough information about their situation and there is no indication that the convoy did or did not have the tools to handle the situation any different.  For all we know, there may have been an attempt, to communicate the situation, that failed to trickle the message back as more and more traffic arrived.  There may have been errors, but it is possible that there were none.  It does not matter.

There are lessons to be seen here still.  It is a warning that planning and development of tools are required to avoid/minimize future incidents and the resulting impact that may be had on the big-picture mission.

 

[armyvern]

I see your point, but I didn't say that it was easy.  The soldiers are also trying to protect everybody in that situation. Letting everybody crowd around invites a catastrophy for both soldiers and innocents in that situation since they are are fixed target.

I agree 100%.

My post actually wasn't related to yours at all.

Just the thoughts that came immediately to my mind after reading the article.

 

[Kiwi99]

I guess some people become experts in less than a month. You know who you are.

 

[Good2Golf]

Perhaps the situation could have used a blend of efforts.  Having driven that very road in the decent double-digits of times, I can understand the US soldiers' twitchiness just as much as the locals' frustrations.

In this situation, the major cause factor is a spill of munitions off a carrier that the troops are trying to get back on board.  At a calculated risk, knowing my convoy was the cause of the building slow up, not the other way around (some vehicle by the side of the road, perhaps by the "pink gas station" or other pinch point on that route - something that would definitely get my spidey sense going!) I would carefully approach the first vehicle in line and with my terp, explain (it should be obvious, but hearts and minds is not always obvious) that there is great risk because of the spilled munitions and that you are halting traffic until the area is safely secured; then ask the driver to pass the pessage down the line (minimizing risk to any of my guys having to continue down the line repeating the explination).  Hopefully the Afghans would appreciate the polite engagement, yet firm action, much of it for their own good as well.  The manner that the soldiers apparently barked back at the locals would clearly not help things.

Rosie was taking an incredible risk in what she did.  I like her, and I am especially respectful of Christie (hoping she would not have done the same as Rosie...she has enough field time [as should Rosie] to recognized spilled munitions and back off) but the guys were already on edge with spilled ammo all over the place....who's to say AQ hadn't co-opted Jihadiis with a more Western look, with faked Press Credentials, that frankly you couldn't tell from moldy toilet paper at 100m?  She's frickin lucky...could have turned out much worse.

In this situation, one could say the only damage done was one more story for Afghans to tell their children in the years to come.  Yes, it might have been done better, but it also could have been worse; a lot worse.

My 2 ¢

G2G