What's Wrong with University Campuses Today?

[MissMolsonIndy]

It's easy to slam the West while living under the aegis of a liberal democratic order, isn't it.

About as easy as it is to slam protestors struggling to uphold values that others cannot personally identify with. I agree with you that their conduct was unruly, but ask yourself this:

If that same group of protestors used forms of violence and unprecedented behaviour in an effort to defend values that you both identified with and upheld, would you still ground the same position on the issue?

If the violence facilitated by these protests has been common in the past, then perhaps we're moreover debating the nature of the values protested, rather than the conduct...

 

[Bograt]

Oh, to be in university again. The lobby parties, late night pizza orders, girls away from home for the first time... ahhh those were the days. Funny though, I don't remember slapping anyone in the face because they held a different point of view than me, and I don't recall mentioning that my classmates were responsible for killing Palestinian babies. I don't recall anyone ever saying to me that they would rather die as a suicide bomber than live under my tyranny... but if was often loud at the parties I went to and on many occasions I only pretended to hear what the other person was saying.  :

MissMolsonIndy, your defence of the right to say these things is academically admirable. Unfortunately, the Ivory towers of academia is far removed from reality- and this is why campuses these days are petri dishes of angst and moral self righteousness. These two characteristics don't do so well in the real world. I fear that these "activist" will wake up one day and wonder where did their university days go. Instead of wearing gas masks and chanting "Death to Bush" they will be regretting that they didn't "drag off" that "granola chick" from first year sociology.

When I was going to university, environmentalism was all the rage. Saving rainforest, wearing hemp, sexual experimentation... I loved those girls. They all smelled like the body shop. I feel sorry for all the "regular guys" going to school now. I don't imagine they are saying this at the campus bar..
"Hey Jim, take a look at that hottie"
"Where"
"Next to the guy defecating on the Israeli flag"

 

[Torlyn]

"Hey Jim, take a look at that hottie"
"Where"
"Next to the guy defecating on the Israeli flag"

Dear lord, Bograt...  I *LOVE* that...    hehe...  ;D

T

 

[48Highlander]

About as easy as it is to slam protestors struggling to uphold values that others cannot personally identify with. I agree with you that their conduct was unruly, but ask yourself this:
If that same group of protestors used forms of violence and unprecedented behaviour in an effort to defend values that you both identified with and upheld, would you still ground the same position on the issue?

I don't know about Infanteer, but I can tell you that I sure as hell would.  I'm pretty sure he would as well.  This type of behavior is utterly unacceptable regaurdless of what the cause or political leaning of the individuals may be.  What's really infuriating though is that this sort of behavior is almost always ignored by the faculty/administration as long as it occurs against people whom they can classify as either conservative or holding views which clash with whatever the causes of the moment may be.  A group protesting against Israel and screaming for the extermination of the Zionist Invaders will rarely receive much in the way of a reprimand from the faculty, whereas a similar group advocating the destruction of Palestine would very likely receive threats from both the faculty and other students.  It seems that threats and violence are acceptable as long as they're directed at those who disagree with campus politics.  Check out infanteers link for a video which very clearly illustrates that point.

 

[canadianblue]

I'm glad that I'm not applying to any universities any time soon. Right now I'm just trying to get into police studies programs, and the University of Regina Police Studies program, I hope that their are'nt many radical left wing nuts were I'm going.

If those people have such a problem with the states, move the f%$# back to were ever they came from before saying bulls^%$ about the country that took them in.

 

[MissMolsonIndy]

MissMolsonIndy, your defence of the right to say these things is academically admirable. Unfortunately, the Ivory towers of academia is far removed from reality- and this is why campuses these days are petri dishes of angst and moral self righteousness. These two characteristics don't do so well in the real world. I fear that these "activist" will wake up one day and wonder where did their university days go. Instead of wearing gas masks and chanting "Death to Bush" they will be regretting that they didn't "drag off" that "granola chick" from first year sociology.

No, the Ivory Towers of academia are one of many vehicles to the real world, a vehicle that you and many others in fact took, and a vehicle that millions, myself included, are taking at present. Otherwise your statement implies that professionals cannot construe the idea of reality until they have stepped foot into a non-academic setting (which is untrue). And furthermore, your statement implies that many of those who have never dipped a toe into the academic waters are predispositionally "in touch" with reality (which is also untrue). If every individual makes and creates his and her own truths, using evidence, fact and sometimes the appeal to the metaphysical to back his/her principles and claims, and ultimately create reality for his/her self, in what position are you to comment on the validity of another's reality and moreover the legitimacy of one's pathway to reality?

It is my understanding that the university should have taken more appropriate measures in terms of dealing with the violent group, and perhaps should have outruled the protest at the slightest indication of violent and in some cases counterproductive behaviour, however the many of you have successfully turned a blind eye to the numerous off campus institutions, which harbour groups of people who have and continue to resort to forms of violence to make themselves heard. The bottom line is, while it appears that these students were protesting on university grounds, I fail to see the connection specific to the phenomenon of protesting/violent behaviour and the university setting, when for the most part these incidences have occurred and continue to occur off campus. Accounting for the rest of society would not weaken your argument, instead, it would force others to look at the array of underlying factors involved.

 

[George Wallace]

No, the Ivory Towers of academia are one of many vehicles to the real world, a vehicle that you and many others in fact took, and a vehicle that millions, myself included, are taking at present. Otherwise your statement implies that professionals cannot construe the idea of reality until they have stepped foot into a non-academic setting (which is untrue). And furthermore, your statement implies that many of those who have never dipped a toe into the academic waters are predispositionally "in touch" with reality (which is also untrue). If every individual makes and creates his and her own truths, using evidence, fact and sometimes the appeal to the metaphysical to back his/her principles and claims, and ultimately create reality for his/her self, in what position are you to comment on the validity of another's reality and moreover the legitimacy of one's pathway to reality?

Very brave statement to make for one who has only known the wonderful real world of Academia.  Why do you not accept what is said contrary to that by people who have been through that world and then went on to be employed outside of the walls of Academia and found that there are in fact a fantasy world and a real world?

GW

 

[MissMolsonIndy]

I'm glad that I'm not applying to any universities any time soon. Right now I'm just trying to get into police studies programs, and the University of Regina Police Studies program, I hope that their are'nt many radical left wing nuts were I'm going.

If those people have such a problem with the states, move the f%$# back to were ever they came from before saying bulls^%$ about the country that took them in.

Please. Radical left, right, and all that is inbetween wing nuts are not specific to the university setting. In fact, you will be surprised to know that this "breed of the population" is found in all walks of life, including the Police Studies program in which you hope to enroll. It is not arguable that certain professions have a tendency to draw in a greater number of the loud, aggressive sectors of the population (law; politics; government; military; municipal, national and international policing etc...), but for good reason: most of these fields grant a certain burst of authority, power and prestige, and that appeals to select individuals. I do however refuse to overlook the professions that don't make such guarantees, and yet still manage to collect wing nuts.

Lastly, the students are protesting political ends, and not targeting "free and prosperous" America. That is a common fallacy. Many of those, although I won't try to speak for all, who oppose the war in Iraq oppose the war due to American foreign policy. By outlining these individuals as pinpointing the American populace at large, you are undercutting their cause by emphasizing their "hate" for individuals who have little to do, if anything with foreign policy. Also, it is wrongly assumed that opposition to the war situates an individual on the "left" somewhere, when a portion of those who oppose the war share many rightist customs and values.

 

[MissMolsonIndy]

Very brave statement to make for one who has only known the wonderful real world of Academia.   Why do you not accept what is said contrary to that by people who have been through that world and then went on to be employed outside of the walls of Academia and found that there are in fact a fantasy world and a real world?

True, but that statement can only hold ground in so forth that you assume that the world of Academia is the only way in which one can gain and sustain real world experience (which is clearly not the case). Furthermore you have undercut any real world experience that I may have acquired in other walks of life (such as travel, work experience, living abroad, interaction with individuals). So, really, you have made the brave statement.

It is not that I do not accept what has been said by those who have been through the process and are currently employed outside of the academic setting, but rather I challenge the belief that the academic world falls so outside the realms of reality, when, depending on how you define reality, the same could be argued for any other institution, including the military. I accept that all paths converge into reality and or a world that is far beyond reality, but as far as I'm concerned, the path one takes to reality holds no less ground than another's: one's reality is another's fantasy.

On that note, I am going to go sell my surreal books back to candyland.

 

[a_majoor]

I have a few things to say about MMI's recent posts, and I hope she won't take these the wrong way:

1: No matter what setting you are in, resorting to violence is always unacceptable. I cannot jump over the lunchroom table and "drift" you because I disagree with what you are saying or doing, either at the University, the local Macdonald's or in your house or mine. Even in uniform, outside of an actual war, my ability to resort to force is limited to "proportional" response to prevent crime or injury to self or others. Only when I am fairly certain that my life or other's lives are in danger may I resort to deadly force!

2: Reality is , well, real. You might have different interpretations of what you are seeing based on education, life experience etc., but for the most part, the things you see are just as they are, and very little nuance is required to interpret these events. This may be demonstrated by the following conversation: "Gravity is only a theory" "O.K. step off this balcony..." The story which started this post clearly describes a group of people using violence and the threat of violence to stop the free exchange of ideas and information. I have bashed Concordia for allowing the same thing to happen, because no amount of "nuance" takes away from the facts. Historical analogies between the actions of these people and 1930 era "brownshirts" are as close and exact as you can get, the only difference is these attacks are the outward manifestation of a different "ethnic" group, in this case Palestinians.

Finally, I have met a great many University educated people in my time, and trained a lot of them too. University education, in my experience, has about zero correlation with their abilities and effectiveness as leaders in a military environment. Some are fantastic people, and some cannot organize a breakfast line (and I am not speaking metaphorically either). The one correlation I do find is that people with rigid mind sets are not well equipped to deal with the real world. University students that I have encountered in the recent past seem "pre programmed" with certain ideas, so unless that person is flexible enough to compare the real world to what they have been taught, and discard ideas which do not match what is being seen out there, they are in for a very rough ride. I thought the ideal of University was to give people the ability to look at the evidence and form their own conclusions. I guess I am an idealist at heart.

 

[Bograt]

No, the Ivory Towers of academia are one of many vehicles to the real world, a vehicle that you and many others in fact took, and a vehicle that millions, .......

LOL. Oh to be young again. Anyone see where I put my toga?

 

[CivU]

" I love RMC, I love RMC, I love RMC... I am so glad I don't have to put up with crap like that."

Bigfoot,

I hope you were refferring to not having to put up with rioting...because if you mean that you don't have to put up with radical viewpoints, from either end of the spectrum, protest in a variety of peacefully effective functions and any diversity of political/social opinion, and are suggesting that makes RMC a good place to broaden your knowledge and grow as a person and student, then you are definetly missing a major part of what attending university is all about...

While violent rioting is unacceptable, so too is trying to quiet persons from either spectrum and remove a persons freedom of speech...to attend a ideologically homogenized university would hardly be an education...

As far as, "I hope that their are'nt many radical left wing nuts were I'm going"

Futuretrooper, is this not the kind of attitude that plays a fundamental role in taking a person protesting or voicing their opinion and escalates it into violence? It's fine to have your viewpoint, but its not acceptable to condemn another person as being radical because they are not consistent with yours...

"That is a common fallacy. Many of those, although I won't try to speak for all, who oppose the war in Iraq oppose the war due to American foreign policy. By outlining these individuals as pinpointing the American populace at large, you are undercutting their cause by emphasizing their "hate" for individuals who have little to do, if anything with foreign policy. Also, it is wrongly assumed that opposition to the war situates an individual on the "left" somewhere, when a portion of those who oppose the war share many rightist customs and values."

I must agree with this statement...I know many people who are conservative, liberal, marxist, anarchist...the list goes on, who dispute the War in Iraq not as an insult to the American 'everyman' but instead to the foreign policy of the present administration...

 

[Bert]

After reading Infanteer's initial post and the posts that follow, I'm struck by the idea that its
not a question of issue, opinion or point of view, but the method or act of disagreement that
is startling. 

I've had the opportunity to visit many parts of the world and have listened to points of view
on geo-political issues and observed local customs very different from that of typical Canada.  Even
in Canada, I've visited demonstrations and street debates and observed how easily communication
breaks down to lower levels like violence.  This is a human condition that is tempered by the rule
of law and by accepted practices of society.

MMI mentioned violent protest or the reaction to it is not increasing just on campuses but can
be observed in mainstream society.  As seen on TV, many protests devolve into brawls, breaking
of windows, vandalism, looting, the burning of vehicles, back to the stone ages, all in the name of
freedom of speech and protest, and the rule of law is tossed aside.  If a method of protest
happens once and gets a reaction, it is observed again in another protest.

To me, increasing violent protest in Canada suggests a greater problem within society.  It wonder
if everyone had to take a conflict resolution or negotiating course would it alter anything.

 

[CivU]

"If those people have such a problem with the states, move the f%$# back to were ever they came from before saying bulls^%$ about the country that took them in. "

Futuretrooper, this statement is so racially loaded I'm not sure whether to address it or hope that you had a momentary lapse (and not that your hood fell over your eyes while typing...).  Who are "those people" and where do you suggest they move back to? 

 

[a_majoor]

This is what's wrong with University today: (Linked from Instapundit)

http://www.rightwingnews.com/archives/week_2004_12_12.PHP#003239

What Could Be More Funny Than Going On A Republican Killing Spree?

You ready for a little humor folks? Well, prepare yourself for the comedy stylings of Pat Rothfuss, a teacher at the University of Wisconsin-Stevens Point. Make sure you're not sitting down so you can keel over with laughter as you read this...

"Pat Rothfuss, a University of Wisconsin-Stevens Point faculty member, has been writing his sarcastic, satirical column in UWSP's student newspaper for years.

He started "Your College Survival Guide" while still a UWSP student, continued writing while away at graduate school and has kept up the column since becoming an associate lecturer of English.

The column, which Rothfuss pens under his own name and describes as "about 80 percent stupid humor," is an outlet for an almost fictionalized, crazed version of himself as the perpetual student, he said. Irreverent advice from past columns, which are published in The Pointer, UWSP's student newspaper, has included everything from corporate America to voodoo and prostitution.

But a group of students from the UWSP College Republicans organization wasn't laughing Nov. 4 when a post-election Rothfuss column included phrases like "punching smug-looking Republicans in the mouth" and "key every car you see with a Bush bumper sticker." The column's premise was that Rothfuss was drunk while writing to himself, and it suggested, "why don't you go on a killing spree? I pet you can take out fixteen for sisteen republicans beofre they gun you down. Duke, youd' be like a heroe."

Ha, ha, ha, going on a "a killing spree," "punching smug-looking Republicans," and keying cars with "Bush bumper sticker(s)," oh the HILARITY! If you look at his actual column, you'll also see that he also calls the people who voted for Bush "retarded" & refers to America as a "pitiufl deluded sh*thol of a country". Is this guy funnier than Carrot Top or what (wait, don't answer that). Someone call Showtime at the Apollo, I think they have a headliner for next week.

Of course, the mirthless College Republicans at the University of Wisconsin-Stevens Point didn't understand the comedic genius of Pat Rothfuss and complained, but they got nowhere....

"The issue isn't Rothfuss' right to free speech, some College Republicans have said, but rather the appropriateness of a faculty member making such statements. Conservative or Republican students might feel uncomfortable or intimidated expressing their opinions in Rothfuss' classes, said College Republican Josh Schroeder.

"I understood that he wasn't being serious," Schroeder said. "But I also feel that if someone with a conservative point of view would have said anything half as incredulous in a satire article, ... we would have had the book thrown at us."

But Rothfuss maintains that his teaching persona and column-writing persona should be kept separate. He refused to apologize for the incident, a request made but then retracted by organization vice president Aaron Michels. Michels wrote a response to Rothfuss' column - minus the original apology request - in a letter to the editor published in The Pointer. Rothfuss also attended a College Republicans meeting to discuss the issue."

Come on you College Republicans, you're being too sensitive. Why, if you'd written a "comedy piece" that suggested keying the cars of faculty members, punching them in the mouth, and shooting 15 or 16 of them, why I'm sure they wouldn't have immediately expelled you, they would have just laughed and laughed and laughed!

But, you know what's going to be really funny? Right Wing News is a pretty good sized website and I'm sure there will be more than a few links to this post. Fast forward a month or two and when people do a search for the University of Wisconsin-Stevens Point, you know like Republican Alumni who are thinking about donating or Republican parents who are wondering where to send their kids, this post should be fairly close to the top.

That means those Republicans will learn that members of the faculty publicly joke about murdering people like them and that's apparently A-OK at UWSP! Personally, I expect that some of those folks may consider another school or place to send their money, perhaps one where the teachers don't consider America to be a "pitiufl deluded sh*thol of a country". Now that's my idea of funny...

 

[Infanteer]

"If those people have such a problem with the states, move the f%$# back to were ever they came from before saying bulls^%$ about the country that took them in. "

Futuretrooper, this statement is so racially loaded I'm not sure whether to address it or hope that you had a momentary lapse (and not that your hood fell over your eyes while typing...).   Who are "those people" and where do you suggest they move back to?  

Probably "these people"....

Lee Wolf, another College Republicans member, described one of the women on Monday as shouting, â Å“The only way we can defeat you is to kill as many as possible! I'd rather die a suicide bomber's death than to call myself an American!â ?

 

[CivU]

"one of the women on Monday as shouting, â Å“The only way we can defeat you is to kill as many as possible! I'd rather die a suicide bomber's death than to call myself an American!â ?

Where does this imply that she isn't from America? And whether she is or not, how is that relevant?  It was said, "If those people have such a problem with the states, move the f%$# back to were ever they came from before saying bulls^%$ about the country that took them in. "  Why is it assumed that someone questioning American foreign policy is not American born...and why is it acceptable to tell people to "move the f%$# back to were ever they came from" ?

 

[Infanteer]

I'm failing to see how "The only way we can defeat you is to kill as many as possible!" can be regarded as a "questioning of American Foreign policy."

As well, I am assuming by the fact that the the person used the terms we and you implies that she was:

A) Not American.

B) If she was American, did not wish to be American.

The fact that she is waiving a Palestinian flag and promoting violence against the US administration and its citizens gives me a good clue as to where her loyalties lie, so relax - the young guy getting pissed off is only a natural response to someone hurling threats of mortal harm upon your neighbour.

Hopefully, the people in the article will have the cojones to go to Palestine and put their money where there mouth is - maybe we'll all be lucky and they'll join this "patriot"

http://www.rachelcorrie.org/

 

[Acorn]

Well, considering Ms Corrie was killed underquestionable circumstances in Gaza, we could grant that at least she was willing to put her life on the line for her beliefs.

Acorn

 

[CivU]

"As well, I am assuming by the fact that the the person used the terms we and you implies that she was:

A) Not American.

B) If she was American, did not wish to be American."


I don't wish to reduce this to semantics, but the "we" and "you" distinction can simply represent a differention between a person supporting one cause and another person opposing it; I see no reason to assume that this ensures a difference in nationality...

"The fact that she is waiving a Palestinian flag and promoting violence against the US administration and its citizens gives me a good clue as to where her loyalties lie"

Her loyalties could be based on the American support of Israel...though I insist we do not reduce this to a futile battle over the deeply rooted Israeli / Palestinian issue, one must recognize that, if she is Palestinian as you suggest, she must have some connection to the fate of her peoples who are dying everyday in Israel...