The Anti-Royal
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Jim Seggie said:
Or the Walt detector van from the Minister of Housinge (yes, I spelled that right).
If you remember Monty Python's "Eric the Half a Bee" song . . .
Walts, posers & wannabes (merged)
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Or the Walt detector van from the Minister of Housinge (yes, I spelled that right).
If you remember Monty Python's "Eric the Half a Bee" song . . .
The Right To Lie
March 6, 2012
Article Link
Six years ago, the United States enacted a law (the Stolen Valor Act) that made it illegal to lie and claim you received military awards for valor. One of the men recently convicted of this has appealed his sentence (three years' probation, a fine, and community service) by claiming the Stolen Valor Act tramples on the right of free speech and that one aspect of free speech is the right to lie about one's military service.
One of the interesting items to come out of all this litigation is the fact that the U.S. Department of Defense does not have a central database for those awarded these medals. To find out if someone had received a particular medal, one has to contact the service (army, navy, air force, marines, coast guard) involved and then the service record of the individual, or a database maintained by that service, must be inspected to see if the award was actually made.
Part of the problem is that all the services use some of the same medals, like the Bronze Star (for "meritorious service" or bravery in combat), Silver Star (for bravery in combat), and Purple Heart (for getting wounded). All the awards with the same name are supposed to represent the same degree of bravery and sacrifice but they don't. All services also award the Medal of Honor, and there are plenty of people keeping lists of who has received this award as this is the nation's highest award and rarely given. Right below it is the Distinguished Service Cross (for the army, Navy Cross for sailors, and the Air Force Cross for airmen), which is given out more freely. And then there's the Distinguished Flying Cross, just for people who fly. As far back as 1926, when the Distinguished Flying Cross was established, the first one to be awarded went to a civilian (Charles Lindbergh) for a non-combat bit of bravery (flying a single engine aircraft across the Atlantic). Some particularly brave and intrepid Air Force pilots have racked up as many as 13 Distinguished Flying Crosses, while no one has received more than two Medals of Honor. One person has received as many as seven Distinguished Service Crosses but this was a World War I pilot who got it for daring air operations. The Distinguished Flying Cross was invented partly to take care of the multiple awards that the brass loved to lavish on successful pilots. The Distinguished Flying Cross tends to be given out fifty times more frequently than the Distinguished Service Cross. So one reason for not keeping a central database is the possibility that it might start a squabble over why it seems to be easier to get medals in some services versus others.
Meanwhile, the government has other ways of cracking down on those who falsely claim military service. For example, after years of pressure from veterans the U.S. government finally cracked down on phony veterans, particularly those who claim to have been POWs (Prisoners Of War). Many of these fakes went even farther and claimed to be POWS when they claimed disability payments from the Veterans Administration. There is a financial incentive to make the claim, and for years the Veterans Administration ignored obvious evidence of fraud.
There are only 661 officially recognized U.S. POWs from the Vietnam period. About 500 of those are alive, but when questioned VA found that they were paying disability payments to nearly a thousand "Vietnam POWs." It got worse after the 1991 Gulf War. There were 21 officially recognized POWs during that conflict but the VA found it was paying disability to 286 Gulf War POWs. For years the VA claimed that they checked out the records before recognizing all these phony POW vets. Apparently there were not a lot of people at the VA who knew how to count.
Once recognized as a POW by the VA, you have several financial benefits (like not having to make copayments for medical services). Thus the fake POWs are also guilty of stealing money from the government. Veterans groups believe the VA resisted dealing with this obvious fraud because of unwillingness to deal with the resulting bad publicity.
Veteran groups have, increasingly, been going after these phonies independently and have unmasked thousands of POW poseurs. These groups have also exposed many more non-veterans who claimed service, including medals not earned. Some of these imposters even used fake documents to claim veterans' benefits. But most just did it to impress friends and acquaintances.
Some of the most outrageous fakers pretended to be veterans of elite units (Special Forces, Delta Force, Rangers, and SEALS). The boldest fakes pretend to have been U.S. Navy SEALs. The real SEALs are elite amphibious commandoes and there aren’t many of them (fewer than a thousand on active duty at any one time). There are only a few thousand real SEAL veterans out there. Yet in the last decade, over 25,000 people have been exposed as pretending to be former SEALs. There are volunteer organizations out there that expose these phonies. Only one in 200 people examined by these organizations turn out of have been SEALs. Some of the phonies have threatened lawsuits but none has ever followed through.
The number of phonies goes up whenever SEALs are in the news, either because of combat activity or because of a movie or TV show about them. Many civilians accuse the authenticating organizations of being vigilantes, as many people find nothing wrong in a little make believe. But SEALs, or any combat troops, operate in a very dangerous environment and have to train hard to acquire the skills that civilians are so keen on pretending they have. The phonies are seen by the troops as dishonoring the effort and sacrifices of the real SEALs. Moreover, the phonies are often embarrassing specimens of humanity who make the real SEALs look bad simply by association. So it’s not just a little harmless make-believe, it’s bad for the morale of people who risk their lives for all of us.
end
March 6, 2012
Article Link
Six years ago, the United States enacted a law (the Stolen Valor Act) that made it illegal to lie and claim you received military awards for valor. One of the men recently convicted of this has appealed his sentence (three years' probation, a fine, and community service) by claiming the Stolen Valor Act tramples on the right of free speech and that one aspect of free speech is the right to lie about one's military service.
One of the interesting items to come out of all this litigation is the fact that the U.S. Department of Defense does not have a central database for those awarded these medals. To find out if someone had received a particular medal, one has to contact the service (army, navy, air force, marines, coast guard) involved and then the service record of the individual, or a database maintained by that service, must be inspected to see if the award was actually made.
Part of the problem is that all the services use some of the same medals, like the Bronze Star (for "meritorious service" or bravery in combat), Silver Star (for bravery in combat), and Purple Heart (for getting wounded). All the awards with the same name are supposed to represent the same degree of bravery and sacrifice but they don't. All services also award the Medal of Honor, and there are plenty of people keeping lists of who has received this award as this is the nation's highest award and rarely given. Right below it is the Distinguished Service Cross (for the army, Navy Cross for sailors, and the Air Force Cross for airmen), which is given out more freely. And then there's the Distinguished Flying Cross, just for people who fly. As far back as 1926, when the Distinguished Flying Cross was established, the first one to be awarded went to a civilian (Charles Lindbergh) for a non-combat bit of bravery (flying a single engine aircraft across the Atlantic). Some particularly brave and intrepid Air Force pilots have racked up as many as 13 Distinguished Flying Crosses, while no one has received more than two Medals of Honor. One person has received as many as seven Distinguished Service Crosses but this was a World War I pilot who got it for daring air operations. The Distinguished Flying Cross was invented partly to take care of the multiple awards that the brass loved to lavish on successful pilots. The Distinguished Flying Cross tends to be given out fifty times more frequently than the Distinguished Service Cross. So one reason for not keeping a central database is the possibility that it might start a squabble over why it seems to be easier to get medals in some services versus others.
Meanwhile, the government has other ways of cracking down on those who falsely claim military service. For example, after years of pressure from veterans the U.S. government finally cracked down on phony veterans, particularly those who claim to have been POWs (Prisoners Of War). Many of these fakes went even farther and claimed to be POWS when they claimed disability payments from the Veterans Administration. There is a financial incentive to make the claim, and for years the Veterans Administration ignored obvious evidence of fraud.
There are only 661 officially recognized U.S. POWs from the Vietnam period. About 500 of those are alive, but when questioned VA found that they were paying disability payments to nearly a thousand "Vietnam POWs." It got worse after the 1991 Gulf War. There were 21 officially recognized POWs during that conflict but the VA found it was paying disability to 286 Gulf War POWs. For years the VA claimed that they checked out the records before recognizing all these phony POW vets. Apparently there were not a lot of people at the VA who knew how to count.
Once recognized as a POW by the VA, you have several financial benefits (like not having to make copayments for medical services). Thus the fake POWs are also guilty of stealing money from the government. Veterans groups believe the VA resisted dealing with this obvious fraud because of unwillingness to deal with the resulting bad publicity.
Veteran groups have, increasingly, been going after these phonies independently and have unmasked thousands of POW poseurs. These groups have also exposed many more non-veterans who claimed service, including medals not earned. Some of these imposters even used fake documents to claim veterans' benefits. But most just did it to impress friends and acquaintances.
Some of the most outrageous fakers pretended to be veterans of elite units (Special Forces, Delta Force, Rangers, and SEALS). The boldest fakes pretend to have been U.S. Navy SEALs. The real SEALs are elite amphibious commandoes and there aren’t many of them (fewer than a thousand on active duty at any one time). There are only a few thousand real SEAL veterans out there. Yet in the last decade, over 25,000 people have been exposed as pretending to be former SEALs. There are volunteer organizations out there that expose these phonies. Only one in 200 people examined by these organizations turn out of have been SEALs. Some of the phonies have threatened lawsuits but none has ever followed through.
The number of phonies goes up whenever SEALs are in the news, either because of combat activity or because of a movie or TV show about them. Many civilians accuse the authenticating organizations of being vigilantes, as many people find nothing wrong in a little make believe. But SEALs, or any combat troops, operate in a very dangerous environment and have to train hard to acquire the skills that civilians are so keen on pretending they have. The phonies are seen by the troops as dishonoring the effort and sacrifices of the real SEALs. Moreover, the phonies are often embarrassing specimens of humanity who make the real SEALs look bad simply by association. So it’s not just a little harmless make-believe, it’s bad for the morale of people who risk their lives for all of us.
end
ArmyRick
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I am not a lawyer and certainly not an American lawyer BUT the right to free speech is not the same as the right to lie as far as I understand it. For example if a person lies in a US court room, I know thats a criminal offence or if they lie to US LAw enforcement authorities, thats also a criminal offence.
I don't beleive they have the right to lie.
As for this pretending horse sh*t? Forget pretending to be a JTF2-SAS-Sniper-SEAL-PAthfinder robo-commando! I am going to be an original fake.
I am going to wear a grizzly bear suit and pretend to be a freaking rampaging grizzly bear! If your gonna be a fake, might as well go all out and have fun with it. Imagine, me in a grizzly suit running around simcoe county pretending to growl and root through the garbage....til I get shot by animal control. Damn I better think this idea out more.
I don't beleive they have the right to lie.
As for this pretending horse sh*t? Forget pretending to be a JTF2-SAS-Sniper-SEAL-PAthfinder robo-commando! I am going to be an original fake.
I am going to wear a grizzly bear suit and pretend to be a freaking rampaging grizzly bear! If your gonna be a fake, might as well go all out and have fun with it. Imagine, me in a grizzly suit running around simcoe county pretending to growl and root through the garbage....til I get shot by animal control. Damn I better think this idea out more.
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I am not a lawyer and certainly not an American lawyer BUT the right to free speech is not the same as the right to lie as far as I understand it. For example if a person lies in a US court room, I know that's a criminal offence or if they lie to US Law enforcement authorities, that's also a criminal offence.
OK but could he then use this?
I have the right to not incriminate my self so buy telling the truth now I incriminate my self. Catch 22.
I think they should all go to jail but then the tax payers would still be supporting them.
OK but could he then use this?
I have the right to not incriminate my self so buy telling the truth now I incriminate my self. Catch 22.
I think they should all go to jail but then the tax payers would still be supporting them.
Pusser
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It was Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr (Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court and a Civil War Veteran) who stated words to the effect that, "the right of free speech does not give the right to shout "fire" in a crowded theatre." In other words, reasonable limits can indeed be placed on free speech (and other "rights" for that matter). The Canadian Consititution also allows for the placement of limits on rights.
Colin Parkinson
Army.ca Myth
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One day I intend to impersonate being Chief cook and bottle washer for an elite long range patrol group. Maybe even be a cabin boy for seal team 6...... :nod:
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Well, if we're just seeing how ridiculous we can get....maybe I'll impersonate someone who cares about the sick/lame/lazy who post in the Recruiting threads how awesome they'd be in JTF2. :nod:
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Journeyman said:
Impersonating yourself isn't too spectacular of an acting feat though. A REAL walt will pretnend to be something he's not
(Deep down, we all know you care about every Canadian, young and old, on these boards, even if they have under 150 logged hours as a sniper on MW3)
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Danger Will Robinson, my arms are flailing wildly!Jim Seggie said:
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This idea may not fly for all walts as there are some who just say they were in X unit but nothing more. This applies to the ones who goto a surplus store, buy the gear and parade around as a member:
Isn't it a criminal offense to impersonate a police officer? This guy was charged with 'impersonating a police officer' ref: here. In Ohio, a lawsite says this. And there is a conversation of Canadian laws on this site here
So for those walts (like that 'Duke' in England who is a famous walt), can't they be charged and convicted? I am not too familiar with law so I do know if they would qualify for such.
By all these references, those folk who say that they have a medal for 'Order of XYZ', their own VC , or even falsely wear medals to have bragging right on Remembrance Day, aren't they falsely stating that they have earned a decoration which is awarded on authority of the GG/Queen and thus be subject to these laws too?
I understand that what I am proposing hypotetically proposes many police detachments around Canada being filled with a bunch of old gentlemen on Nov 11, but I am merely asking for my own knowledge.
Isn't it a criminal offense to impersonate a police officer? This guy was charged with 'impersonating a police officer' ref: here. In Ohio, a lawsite says this. And there is a conversation of Canadian laws on this site here
So for those walts (like that 'Duke' in England who is a famous walt), can't they be charged and convicted? I am not too familiar with law so I do know if they would qualify for such.
By all these references, those folk who say that they have a medal for 'Order of XYZ', their own VC , or even falsely wear medals to have bragging right on Remembrance Day, aren't they falsely stating that they have earned a decoration which is awarded on authority of the GG/Queen and thus be subject to these laws too?
I understand that what I am proposing hypotetically proposes many police detachments around Canada being filled with a bunch of old gentlemen on Nov 11, but I am merely asking for my own knowledge.
Pusser
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GhostofJacK said:
Section 419 of the Criminal Code of Canada covers this:
419. Every one who without lawful authority, the proof of which lies on him,
(a) wears a uniform of the Canadian Forces or any other naval, army or air force or a uniform that is so similar to the uniform of any of those forces that it is likely to be mistaken therefor,
(b) wears a distinctive mark relating to wounds received or service performed in war, or a military medal, ribbon, badge, chevron or any decoration or order that is awarded for war services, or any imitation thereof, or any mark or device or thing that is likely to be mistaken for any such mark, medal, ribbon, badge, chevron, decoration or order,
(c) has in his possession a certificate of discharge, certificate of release, statement of service or identity card from the Canadian Forces or any other naval, army or air force that has not been issued to and does not belong to him, or
(d) has in his possession a commission or warrant or a certificate of discharge, certificate of release, statement of service or identity card, issued to an officer or a person in or who has been in the Canadian Forces or any other naval, army or air force, that contains any alteration that is not verified by the initials of the officer who issued it, or by the initials of an officer thereto lawfully authorized,
is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.
R.S., c. C-34, s. 377.
medicineman
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GhostofJacK said:
The cops feel there are more important things to do with their time than arrest these asshats...guess more complaints have to be lodged and followed up on for them take it more seriously.
MM
Pusser
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GhostofJacK said:
There's a law against robbing banks, but people still do it....
The main reason is likely that with limited police and justice system resources available, this falls to the bottom of the list of priorities. There are prosecutions, but not many (I know of at least one investigation going on now). Most folks, when called out, simply scurry away in embarrassment and are not seen again (until they pop us somewhere else).
PJOsborne
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So I just read this entire thread (all 37 pages of it) over the last 2 days, and I found the contents to be very entertaining. I wish I could have found out what happened to Booty, though. The links to the Arrse pages are broken now, so I can't see what they dug up on him unfortunately.
My experiences with walts are fairly limited, thankfully. However, way back when I was a cadet, I'd get some CIC instructor types telling some very tall tales. Some that have stuck with me are:
a) There's a special unit in the Army Reserves called "The Rifle Sergeant Corps" where you join up and are immediately promoted to "Rifle Sergeant" and all you do is train with the weapons of other countries and become expert marksmen.
b) The .22 Long Rifle cartridge is the 'most powerful and accurate' bullet on earth, because it can 'fly perfectly straight for 2 KM before gravity starts to affect it'. (we were being taught our introduction to the C.No7 cadet rifle at the time :facepalm
c) The artillery trains with "a 37mm training howitzer" (whatever that is)
I was fortunate enough to bump into this guy years later.. he was never an actual uniform-wearing CIC officer, just a "civillian instructor" who taught at my old cadet unit. I ran into him by chance when he was with the entire cadet unit as they were practicing for their annual parade. He was wearing makeup and nailpolish and tattered goth clothing (at what was supposed to be the most important event on that cadet unit's calendar), and after some awkward chatting, I told him that I was now in the army reserves, and told him about the training I had received. He tried to impress me by telling me that he owned several "fully automatic M4 carbines with silencers and lasers". I would have probably said something to the Police, since I knew he didn't have the appropriate licences to own those kinds of guns.. but I egged him on a bit and asked for more details. He started to make a lot of basic and elementary mistakes about how they function and even how you'd open one up for disassembly (I asked him how many take down pins his had, 3 or 4?), and I knew he had gone back to his sad, lonely little world of trying to BS people.
I probably should have stayed and started something, but I was far too disgusted at the time to want to hang around any longer. It's sad that people like that exist and are in contact with Cadets, spreading lies and misinformation. I've since learned that he has left the CIC altogether.
That's my :2c:
My experiences with walts are fairly limited, thankfully. However, way back when I was a cadet, I'd get some CIC instructor types telling some very tall tales. Some that have stuck with me are:
a) There's a special unit in the Army Reserves called "The Rifle Sergeant Corps" where you join up and are immediately promoted to "Rifle Sergeant" and all you do is train with the weapons of other countries and become expert marksmen.
b) The .22 Long Rifle cartridge is the 'most powerful and accurate' bullet on earth, because it can 'fly perfectly straight for 2 KM before gravity starts to affect it'. (we were being taught our introduction to the C.No7 cadet rifle at the time :facepalm
c) The artillery trains with "a 37mm training howitzer" (whatever that is)
I was fortunate enough to bump into this guy years later.. he was never an actual uniform-wearing CIC officer, just a "civillian instructor" who taught at my old cadet unit. I ran into him by chance when he was with the entire cadet unit as they were practicing for their annual parade. He was wearing makeup and nailpolish and tattered goth clothing (at what was supposed to be the most important event on that cadet unit's calendar), and after some awkward chatting, I told him that I was now in the army reserves, and told him about the training I had received. He tried to impress me by telling me that he owned several "fully automatic M4 carbines with silencers and lasers". I would have probably said something to the Police, since I knew he didn't have the appropriate licences to own those kinds of guns.. but I egged him on a bit and asked for more details. He started to make a lot of basic and elementary mistakes about how they function and even how you'd open one up for disassembly (I asked him how many take down pins his had, 3 or 4?), and I knew he had gone back to his sad, lonely little world of trying to BS people.
I probably should have stayed and started something, but I was far too disgusted at the time to want to hang around any longer. It's sad that people like that exist and are in contact with Cadets, spreading lies and misinformation. I've since learned that he has left the CIC altogether.
That's my :2c:
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