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USS John S. McCain Collision 20 Aug 17

Oldgateboatdriver said:
Allright, G2G. I've re-read the part underlined in yellow many times over and frankly ... what the hell are you talking about ??? 

I just can't picture what you mean, so as they say in Yes Minister, may I rephrase the question. Do you mean:

If McCain started from a position ahead of and about 30 degrees on Alnic's starboard bow and then suffered a steering breakdown that caused her to veer to port so that she would now cut off Alnic just as Alnic was almost coming level with the McCain, what would be the actions to take with the engines?

Is that the question?

My nautical parlance was no doubt off, Colin, but you got my question/thought 100% bang on -- thanks. I figured "ship at the 1 o'clock for X feet, swinging left to cross ship 2's path with contact" was a little further from the lexicon. 

Up in the thin stuff in a seized-rotor/plank job, a rudder hardcover, depending on the speed, would definitely call for a lot of differential power to the side of the malfunctioning rudder.  Anywhere, in a fling wing, directional control issues can turn nasty in a hurry...and usually at the most inopportune times.

In contrast to the air situation, where the pilot flying (PF) can, reaction time dependant, apply corrective controls almost immediately (due to hands on), in the ship, how much time are we talking about between even jest the command given by the CO/XO/OOW and the helm action physically being effected?

Regards,
G2G
 
You can stop a Canadian frigate going from full speed ahead (30+ Knots) to stop within a ship length (440 feet).
 
Good2Golf said:
In contrast to the air situation, where the pilot flying (PF) can, reaction time dependant, apply corrective controls almost immediately (due to hands on), in the ship, how much time are we talking about between even jest the command given by the CO/XO/OOW and the helm action physically being effected?

Depends on who's at the helm, but most of the time: 1-2 seconds.

Just like the Officer of the Watch, the "Watch-on-Deck" (Helmsmen, Lookouts, Bosnmate, QM) develop "bridge ears"; the ability to discern certain words and commands among a litany of other sounds. The helmsmen could be sitting there having a conversation about his favourite bar on Geroge St, even getting into a heated argument with the baymen who thinks he knows better than a townie, all the while looking like they couldn't possibly be paying attention, but if the OOW yellow out "Full Speed Ahead Port, Stop Stbd", he'll stop mid-sentence and input the engine orders immediately.

Now, that's with an experience helmsmen, which most of the are. However, if you've got a junior member of the log department (wpns systems technicians, basically) who is simply sitting at the helm because it's requirement of his training package, then he's probably going to panic, say "Say Again, Sir?" three time, and in the end just get thrown out of his chain by the Quartermaster who will promptly make shit happen.

Mind you, before you ever get into a close quarters/narrow passage situation, the OOW should already have ordered the inexperienced helmsmen replaced with someone like the sailor I described in para 1.
 
Interesting article on the more probable causes (ie. not hacking) of the at-sea incidents in 7th Fleet...
http://nationalinterest.org/feature/what-the-navy-doesnt-want-you-know-about-its-deadly-ship-22025?page=show

This Is What the Navy Doesn't Want You to Know about Its Deadly Ship Crashes


It would be premature to speculate too much about this year’s spate of accidents in the western Pacific and China seas, but the outlook can’t be good. Just ask the U.S. Navy. It was hardly unexpected when the navy leadership relieved the top leadership of the destroyer USS Fitzgerald for cause last June. Indeed, officials vowed to punish the entire watch team following that ship’s collision with a Philippine freighter off Japan. Spokesmen deployed the standard boilerplate language, citing a “loss of confidence” in the capacity of senior USS Fitzgerald officers and enlisted folk to command.


Foreign audiences may lose confidence in the U.S. Navy as well—corroding the U.S. alliance system in Asia and elsewhere around the globe. There are larger repercussions to incidents at sea.


Citing a loss of confidence is standard fare for naval officialdom. Naval chieftains justified dismissing the captain of the cruiser USS Antietam in similar terms last March, after the USS Antietam ran aground in Tokyo Bay. Nor is it uncommon for the navy leadership to ordain a “standdown” following a series of mishaps. I predicted as much early this week in an interview with a South American newspaper—and it was a safe prediction. Whatever command holds a standdown does just that. It stands down from daily routine, dropping everything for an interval of introspection. The point: to determine whether something baked into the system—faulty hardware, errant procedures or tactics, or substandard human training—accounts for a pattern of mishaps.


It’s rare, however, for the navy to censure a fleet commander for troubles at sea. And yet that’s what happened this week after the destroyer USS McCain collided with a merchantman near Singapore, ostensibly after a steering-gear failure. Vice Adm. Joseph Aucoin, commander of the Japan-based U.S. Seventh Fleet, was removed from his post in the aftermath of four high-seas accidents this year. Adm. Scott Swift, commander of the U.S. Pacific Fleet, rightly observes that the collisions came during “the most basic of operations” at sea—namely observing the rules of the road in close quarters with fellow ships on the highway that is the sea. Navy leaders evidently concluded that four accidents in a few months within a single fleet constitutes more than happenstance.


One of the more improbable theories about the USS McCain collision holds that a cyberattack of some type disabled the destroyer’s steering system. Meh. Steering gear is not new technology; nor is it especially complex. The helmsman turns the wheel. The helm mechanism detects the change of angle, transmitting an electrical signal to hydraulic pumps deep in the ship’s bowels. The pumps drive a hydraulic ram connected to the tiller, pushing the rudder to port or starboard to the angle ordered by the bridge team. Not much to hack there. McCain may have suffered a steering casualty of some type, but the “internet of things” has not infiltrated that far into marine engineering. May shipwrights keep it so.


Chances are the blame for recent woes lies with some malign confluence of material and human failings. Reputable commentators point out that the U.S. Navy fleet is overworked. The United States has taken on countless foreign commitments over the years while shedding ships, planes and armaments to save the taxpayers money. In short, the nation is living beyond its naval means. Sleep was in short supply in navy warships even a quarter-century ago, when the fleet was double its current size. The arithmetic is unforgiving: halve the number of hulls and airframes while requiring the fleet to do as much—or more—and you wear out crews and equipment over time.


Generational change is also at work in today’s navy. We oldtimers stood aghast in the early 2000s when the navy in its wisdom decided to shut down training for junior officers—also known as division officers—en route to their first ships. These are officers to whom skippers entrust the operation of vital systems. In yesteryear, division officers spent months at the Surface Warfare Officers School sites in Newport or Coronado, which is where they learned everything from the rudiments of navigation and piloting to the intricacies of engineering and weapons. After the training shutdown, though, division officers were issued a stack of CD-ROMs containing instructional materials, sent to sea, and told to learn it themselves under the tutelage of extraordinarily busy skippers.


No passenger wants to board an airliner flown by a self-taught pilot—but in effect the navy expected newcomers to surface warfare to school themselves on topics of like technical sophistication.


Guess where that generation of officers now stands in the naval hierarchy: they’re ship executive officers—in other words, commanding officers in waiting. It’s doubtful the reports on the USS Fitzgerald or USS McCain disasters will trace human problems back to those officers’ earliest days in uniform. Still, you have to wonder whether bad decisions back then are rippling into naval operations today. The surface force partially reinstated division officer training back in 2008—tacitly conceding the error of its ways, and trying to remedy the problems that resulted. Skimp on training and education now at your future peril.


Now lift your gaze above the minutiae of training and machinery, and even above the human traumas from recent cataclysms. Think about the damage the U.S. Navy’s reputation has endured this year. America’s ability to deter or coerce foreign foes while reassuring friends and allies depends on the U.S. military’s ability to execute its overseas commitments. If the U.S. Navy’s competence falls into disrepute—justly or unjustly—doubt will seep into foreign minds. They may wonder how U.S. forces would fare amid the rigors of combat if they cannot discharge the most basic of peacetime operations.


Allies may question whether the United States can uphold its security pledges, and look elsewhere to protect themselves. Foes may decide to try their luck against a navy in apparent disarray. If doubt prevails, those who need heartening may lose heart while those who need disheartening may take heart. In short, a foreign loss of confidence in the U.S. Navy would be a dismal thing all around. Let’s tend to the wounded and bereft, mend hulls, and revise procedures—and restore the confidence of key audiences in American seafarers’ prowess.
The world is watching—and judging.


James Holmes is Professor of Strategy at the Naval War College and coauthor ofRed Star over the Pacific (second edition forthcoming 2018). The views voiced here are his alone.
 
Good god, I didn't know the USN shut down ALL OOD training. And then they expect the ship's officers to get these people up to speed? What frikin Einstein came up with this "leading change" idea? Maybe USN ships should hoist 2 black balls every time they depart their berths just to make sure everyone else is safe!



 
Lumber said:
Now, that's with an experience helmsmen, which most of the are. However, if you've got a junior member of the log department (wpns systems technicians, basically) who is simply sitting at the helm because it's requirement of his training package, then he's probably going to panic, say "Say Again, Sir?" three time, and in the end just get thrown out of his chain by the Quartermaster who will promptly make crap happen.

Mind you, before you ever get into a close quarters/narrow passage situation, the OOW should already have ordered the inexperienced helmsmen replaced with someone like the sailor I described in para 1.

My sea time is somewhat dated (1997), but unless things have changed drastically, the only time you'll find someone inexperienced (OSUTs, or whatever they call them these days) sitting on the helm is as part of their OJT package - and even then, the "regularly scheduled" helmsman would be hovering directly over him, ready to pounce if necessary.  You mentioned Log and weapons systems technicians in the same breath, but I think you know that the W Eng Techs are part of the CSE department.  Last time I sailed, junior CSE dept pers mixed in with the Deck dept for regular Watch on Deck (WOD) positions like helm, lookout, lifebuoy sentry.  During Special Sea Dutymen (who would almost certainly be called for a channel passage), helmsman and throttleman were MS CSE dept technicians...and one would never find an inexperienced trainee at the helm/throttles during SSD.  Again, my experience is dated...has anything changed significantly?
 
I don't know about 1997, Occam, but let me tell you a little tale from 1978:

My division is onboard MACKENZIE for our Mars 2 sea phase. First night out and we are just cruising up and down Juan de Fuca strait. We, officer cadets are in a watch rotation for the first time, basically acting as shadows to the ship's crew to learn the basics.

The seaman I am shadowing and I come down to the wheelhouse for our stint at the helm. He is steering, of course and I observe. The guy is not particularly good or paying attention, keeping his course with one or one and half degree on either side, in flat calm. After about 40 minutes of this, I am looking positively bored so the QM decides to have little fun and asks me if I think I can do the job since I don't seem interested in watching. I say yes and he asks permission from the bridge, where the OOW, making a great show of this agrees with a tone that says "Oh! must he really!"

Anyway, they expect disaster and a repeat of the turn over report five times before I get it right.

Except that I zoom right through the report as if I had been doing it all my life, then proceed to steer to the nearest half degree on either side and execute all the orders that the bridge is throwing in just to test me with not a single mistake. The stint comes to an end and the QM takes over. Both my shadow and the QM look miffed and ask me if I had done this before. So I let them in on the little secret: I was leading seaman before switching to the officer program  :nod:

So the next rotation comes in - its my good friend Denis Gingras who is next in the wheelhouse.

Same situation unfolds: After about 40 mins he looks bored, and the QM figures now is his time to get his fun in with the newbies.

But to his great dismay, Denis does just as good, if not better, than I. You see, Denis was a Master Seaman before switching  ;D.
 
FSTO said:
Good god, I didn't know the USN shut down ALL OOD training. And then they expect the ship's officers to get these people up to speed? What frikin Einstein came up with this "leading change" idea? Maybe USN ships should hoist 2 black balls every time they depart their berths just to make sure everyone else is safe!

To be fair, later on in the article it says that it partially reinstated it in 2008.  Not sure what part was reinstated, but at least it's not just like DLN courses.

Still though, that is ridiculous - imagine replacing MARS II through IV with DLN except for the sea phase.
 
Shortly after the end of MARS II (in 1990) a group of us were selected to go to Newport Rhode Island to test out a ship's simulator. Since 4 (Training) Squadron was going to disappear soon the navy was seeing how (relatively) untrained officers would respond to the sim. It was an epic run ashore and driving the sim was pretty cool (when we weren't hung over to the gills).

The Navy went with the Simulator to replace 4 Squadron but they soon realized that nothing can simulate actual sailing, conning and running a watch. Hence the ORCA's were purchased to get some of that 4 Squadron capability back.
 
Rather than a new thread this article is about the Cruiser Antietam that had run aground shortly after weighing anchor. Although serious the article did cause more than a few chuckles.

https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2017/08/24/pacific-fleets-sloppy-seamanship-manifested-in-antietams-january-grounding/

Amid the fallout from the destroyer John S. McCain’s collision Monday, the four-star admiral who leads the Pacific Fleet lamented Tuesday that a series of at-sea disasters in 7th Fleet’s waters are taking place during ”the most basic of operations.”

Yet similar problems were apparent months ago, when the cruiser Antietam ran aground in Tokyo Bay in January, a costly mistake caused in part by sloppy anchoring, according to an internal Navy investigation.

That investigation raised questions about whether sailors could anchor a ship properly and led Surface Naval Force commander Vice Adm. T.S. Rowden to direct other commands to review whether existing technical manuals sufficiently explain how to anchor.  ::)

 
Browsing through the USNI blog page, I came across a link to an interesting article that was in Proceedings back in March 2017, so predating the events of Fitzgerald and McCain.  The quality of shiphandling skills of US Navy Surface Warfare Officers (SWO - their MARS) is questioned in two ways; the lack of initial training in seamanship prior to the first posting of newly commissioned ensigns and then compounded by decreased opportunities to gain the hands-on experience that their system expects them to have in order to learn seamanship on the job.

Too Many SWOs per Ship
By Lieutenant Brendan Cordial, U.S. Navy

This results in too many surface warfare junior officers leaving their first tours with inadequate shiphandling experience.

Surface warfare officer (SWO) division officer tours currently provide inadequate opportunities to develop and strengthen an officer’s shiphandling skills. Two systemic factors—the division officer’s report date relative to his or her ship’s position within its operational cycle and the number of division officers assigned to each wardroom—influence both the quality and quantity of the professional growth opportunities given to young SWOs. The surface community can adjust these two factors to equalize operational and leadership experience to develop more capable surface warriors.

Tours Are Not Created Equal

A senior officer commented recently that he spent his entire three-year division officer tour standing junior officer of the deck. He attributed his lack of experience—never having reported directly to the commanding officer for safe operation of the ship as officer of the deck—to the laziness of his senior watch officer, who loathed unnecessary changes to the watchbill. Having spent his subsequent tours in the Engineering Department—with the responsibility for plant control during special evolutions—this officer expounded that to his amazement, he continued to be promoted in a profession whose foundational competency is the safe and effective maneuver of a ship at sea, despite having been afforded few opportunities to demonstrate such ability. Fortunately, he served in an exchange program with a foreign navy where his primary duty as a deck officer allowed him the opportunity to accrue a significant amount of watch-standing experience, albeit not on a U.S. Navy ship.

This anecdote calls into question the quantity and quality of actual watch-standing experience afforded SWOs as they move from ensign to commanding officer. While individual ships may differ, most underway deck watches are stood by division officers. Department heads tend to be assigned watch as tactical action officers or in the Combat Information Center and are focused on developing tactical acumen. Executive officers typically are removed from the formal watchbill to focus on evolution safety. Deck watch-standing experience, then, generally must be gained during division officer tours.

Yet not all division officer tours are created equal. During my two division officer tours, for example, I experienced nearly two full dry-docking availabilities with a combined duration of 13 months. While maintenance availabilities are an integral part of a ship’s operational cycle, a SWO’s afloat tours are best spent at sea, particularly because professional viability depends on advanced qualifications.  1  All other things being equal, an officer with more underway time is more likely to have achieved advanced qualifications. But promotion and selection boards act as if all officers have had equal opportunities afloat.

Inequalities in experience are exacerbated by the sheer numbers of division officers assigned to surface combatants. An afloat SWO training program seeks to enhance the baseline knowledge learned during the Basic Division Officer Course and help ensigns to achieve their SWO qualification. Nothing is more important to the quality of those qualifications than watch-standing experience, particularly during special evolutions. Given a finite number of special evolutions, large wardrooms result in fewer watchbill assignments per officer. Watchbills either become bloated with under-instruction watch standers—often to the detriment of the watch team’s overall cohesion—or junior officers simply are not given more than a handful of opportunities to directly participate in special evolutions.

Timing Is Everything

Division officer opportunities to participate in special evolutions are driven by timing. A Monte Carlo simulation—conducted to analyze on-board opportunities for division officers—shows that the best time to report to a ship is at the seven-to-nine-month point in the Optimized Fleet Response Plan (O-FRP) cycle, just as the ship is beginning the basic phase. An officer reporting in this range experiences the ship’s preparations for and completion of a full deployment prior to transferring. The mean number of underway time for this officer is approximately 50 weeks, nearly half the afloat tour. This also is the best time to develop professionally for future positions of responsibility and to earn coveted advanced qualifications.

At the other extreme, the analysis shows the worst time to arrive is within the 25-to-27-month range, or immediately after deployment. This officer would experience both the post-deployment sustainment phase and the entire maintenance phase which have significantly less underway time than other phases of the ship’s operational cycle. On average, this officer experiences only 18 weeks of underway time.

Clearly, arriving in the 25-to-27-month range is unfair from a professional perspective, both to the officer and to the surface warfare community. Disadvantaged officers do not gain enough experience or earn advanced qualifications. The community cannot fairly compare these officers’ performance to that of officers who had more opportunities just because of their timing.

A new division officer assigned to an average wardroom can expect to be involved in just three underway replenishments (UNREPs) during his or her tour. An officer reporting during the ideal months can expect to participate in six UNREPs, while an officer reporting during the worst months can expect to participate in two or less. The model does not differentiate between levels of participation; some officers may never be assigned officer of the deck or overall responsibility to the captain for the evolution. It is possible that a serving commanding officer’s first time being in charge of a special evolution will be in command.

. . . . .

Much more at link
 
tomahawk6 said:
Rather than a new thread this article is about the Cruiser Antietam that had run aground shortly after weighing anchor. Although serious the article did cause more than a few chuckles.

https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2017/08/24/pacific-fleets-sloppy-seamanship-manifested-in-antietams-january-grounding/

Amid the fallout from the destroyer John S. McCain’s collision Monday, the four-star admiral who leads the Pacific Fleet lamented Tuesday that a series of at-sea disasters in 7th Fleet’s waters are taking place during ”the most basic of operations.”

Yet similar problems were apparent months ago, when the cruiser Antietam ran aground in Tokyo Bay in January, a costly mistake caused in part by sloppy anchoring, according to an internal Navy investigation.

That investigation raised questions about whether sailors could anchor a ship properly and led Surface Naval Force commander Vice Adm. T.S. Rowden to direct other commands to review whether existing technical manuals sufficiently explain how to anchor.  ::)



...add...

The [Antietam] skipper’s rush to get underway that morning, and a demeanor that stifled critical crew communications, were also factors, according to the investigation.

By no means limited to operations on the Sea.
 
Blackadder1916 said:
Browsing through the USNI blog page, I came across a link to an interesting article that was in Proceedings back in March 2017, so predating the events of Fitzgerald and McCain.  The quality of shiphandling skills of US Navy Surface Warfare Officers (SWO - their MARS) is questioned in two ways; the lack of initial training in seamanship prior to the first posting of newly commissioned ensigns and then compounded by decreased opportunities to gain the hands-on experience that their system expects them to have in order to learn seamanship on the job.

Much more at link

It's pretty crazy that MARS officers in the USN are also Engineering (and who knows what other departmental) officers - no wonder they don't have much experience in their "first job" if they get punted to a different department for an entire tour. 

I know that there are actual Engineering Officers in the USN, so what do they do?
 
It sounds like the USN needs a training squadron, a group of conventional smaller ships lightly armed that do nothing but training, with a dedicated smallish AOR. The purpose of the squadron would be to train officers and NCO in all the varied tasks from watch keeping, anchoring, convoy, replenishment and basic gunnery target engagement. The crew can remain the same, but you have classes go through. Perhaps 6 ships and 2 AOR, so they can operate in group of 4's, rotating so the crews can rest and maintain 
 
milnews.ca said:
Throwing this out there - one opinion, and not touching on the CNN-reported steering failure, but any thoughts from those who know naval things?
Hacking link to USS McCain warship collision? Expert says ‘I don’t believe in coincidence’
THE collision of a second US warship this year that has left 10 sailors missing points to the possibility of cyber espionage, an expert has warned....
An update:  no evidence to this point ...
Navy operations chief says there’s no evidence of a cyber attack on USS John S. McCain
By Sally Persons - The Washington Times - Friday, August 25, 2017

Chief of Naval Operations Adm. John M. Richardson said Friday that there is still no evidence of a cyber attack in the accident on the USS John S. McCain.

“We have no evidence to date that there has been any kind of a cyber intrusion, or a cyber attack. But I do want to make clear that you know in this digital world that we live in right now this will be a more routine part of investigations going forward,” Mr. Richardson said on CNN. “We’re going to have to as a matter of course investigate the digital and the cyber aspects of these problems.”

Mr. Richardson said there is an ongoing investigation into what happened on the ship that resulted in 10 missing sailors. Two bodies have been recovered and identified while other bodies are still in parts of the ship that remain inaccessible to divers.

When asked if reports that the steering had been tampered with, Mr. Richardson said that all questions will be answered in the course of the investigation ...
 
USNI News:

Navy ‘Orion Hammer’ Investigation into USS John McCain Collision Has Turned Up No Evidence of Cyber Attack
https://news.usni.org/2017/08/25/navy-orion-hammer-investigation-uss-john-mccain-collision-turned-no-evidence-cyber-attack

Mark
Ottawa
 
The steering gear arrangement is a "dumb" system and is not connected to any network at all.
This is all just know nothing land lubbers talking out of their collective arses.
 
Landlbubber reaction to following:

The steering gear arrangement is a "dumb" system and is not connected to any network at all.
This is all just know nothing land lubbers talking out of their collective arses.

:bowing:

Mark
Ottawa
 
FSTO said:
The steering gear arrangement is a "dumb" system and is not connected to any network at all.
This is all just know nothing land lubbers talking out of their collective arses.

Not entirely sure that your first statement is correct. With what experience and certainty have you audited this sytem?
When considering a potential threat surface to be the steering gear system, even if not intentionally "networked", a system may still be accessed indirectly through a pivot (another system), or through side-channel attack.

Many vehicle manufacturers (as one example) are finding this out the hard, and expensive way.
Sure, the braking system in your 2017 Jeep Cherokee isn't networked; but it IS on a CAN bus, which can be pivoted onto through other means.

All that being said, a more likely threat surface would be to influence human factors through GPS/AIS/anysystem, deception and jamming.
 
Brashendeavours said:
Not entirely sure that your first statement is correct. With what experience and certainty have you audited this sytem?
When considering a potential threat surface to be the steering gear system, even if not intentionally "networked", a system may still be accessed indirectly through a pivot (another system), or through side-channel attack.

Many vehicle manufacturers (as one example) are finding this out the hard, and expensive way.
Sure, the braking system in your 2017 Jeep Cherokee isn't networked; but it IS on a CAN bus, which can be pivoted onto through other means.

All that being said, a more likely threat surface would be to influence human factors through GPS/AIS/anysystem, deception and jamming.

I suppose what you are saying may be true, but it is not the most likely possibility. Steering systems on warships are fairly simple electro/mechanical arrangements. probably not even as sophisticated as a Jeep Cherokee.

More than likely, this is a simple and tragic case of a mechanical system failing at worst possible moment and the bridge crew being inadequately trained well enough to manage it in time.
 
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