USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges

[brihard]

There are those in the military that like Trump pardoned the men that he did because it showed that he had their back. Some of our policies are stupid . Like an AD might see a man get far more serious punishment than it should. Mistakes are common in the military. Look at ww2 photos and you might see soldiers posing with dead enemy. In todays pc world there is shock and horror. I looked at your profile to see if had even served or your opinions come from civvy street. I have concluded the latter.

Murder isn’t a mistake. It’s a war crime.

Out of curiosity, why do you weakly try to shift focus to Jarnhamar’s employment history rather than focusing on the merits of what he said? Is there a single part of his argument that depends on him having served to be correct? If hypothetically he *had* actually served in the military, would it strengthen his position? Is the law of armed conflict something that can only be meaningfully grasped by those in uniform? If someone were to make the same argument as him, except that that person had four tours in two different countries, had been blown up, ambushes, and had shot people, and had commanded soldiers downrange, would that person’s position automatically be stronger than his even if the exact same things were written?

I know I’ve been accused of arrogance on this site before, but buddy, you’re taking the cake.

 

[Good2Golf]

...I looked at your profile to see if had even served or your opinions come from civvy street. I have concluded the latter.

As the target of your incorrect assessment said, “irrelevant.”

It could be that for all your past talk about service to America, you are in fact a poser, a civilian with your imaginative story of having served, trying to self-aggrandize to make you feel more important than warranted...but like yours, such supposition doesn’t change the truth of the situation noted earlier...POTUS legally used his authority to protect a dishonorable soldier, full stop.

Regards
G2G

 

[Baz]

As someone who does not currently serve, I have both a right and a duty to ensure that the military that acts on my behalf follows the current social norms of my society.  We don't get to break the rules we established just because "they" do.

If our main ally decides to institutionally start to change the rules, on a pretext that war is war (ironically thereby creating a cycle of hatred, see the Hitler Youth vs Canadians at Normandy), then I'm certainly in a place to express my opinion,  and not just in corners of the internet (don't be surprised if some of us are actually trying to influence our government's response).

As I said earlier, this is not about supporting Trump; even though I think he is negatively disruptive, I understand why people support what he stands for.  However, he is (arguably unwittingly) changing the rules on this and other things.  I, and obviously other's in this discussion, find that concerning.

 

[QV]

If Trump's conduct is so wrong, then I expect both the house and the senate to impeach him.  And failing that, for him to lose the next election.

But, I believe most of the MSM reporting is purposely skewed to harm Trump and I think a lot of Americans think that way too.  The problem here is that now even if the MSM had something legitimate, true, and harmful to report on Trump, they have damaged their credibility to the point where everything is in doubt.  So, he now gets the benefit of that doubt. 

 

[Navy_Pete]

There are those in the military that like Trump pardoned the men that he did because it showed that he had their back. Some of our policies are stupid . Like an AD might see a man get far more serious punishment than it should.

The guy was turned in by his fellow SEALs.  Who has their back?  To me, this is like a union standing up for that total soup sandwich that is a danger to work with and ignoring the impact on all the other people in that shop. It's missing the obvious big picture to score cheap, short term points, and is bad for the majority of the group.

This action undermines the whole military justice system, and that's dangerous for everyone. ROEs and the Mil Justice are checks and balances against the kind of terrible abuses you can have otherwise, and those things are the difference between being professionals or roving death squads. Being proud of your troops doesn't mean unquestioning support in everything they do, and ignoring that this guy broke the code of conduct and others may have committed murder is an insult to the vast majority that follow the rules and don't condone this kind of behaviour, as it tarnished the reputation of the SEALs.

The guy wasn't convicted by a bunch of random civvies, it was his peers that made the decision, his peers that reported him, and the CoC that was overseeing the review. Please explain how a person that has never served knows better than them what is proper conduct for military member in a theatre of war.

 

[The Bread Guy]

This right here:

... The guy wasn't convicted by a bunch of random civvies, it was his peers that made the decision, his peers that reported him, and the CoC that was overseeing the review ...

... as well as his peers being denied a chance to determine whether or not he gets to stay in the SEALS.

Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's right.

Just because you can do it doesn't mean you should.

 

[brihard]

But, I believe most of the MSM reporting is purposely skewed to harm Trump and I think a lot of Americans think that way too.  The problem here is that now even if the MSM had something legitimate, true, and harmful to report on Trump, they have damaged their credibility to the point where everything is in doubt.  So, he now gets the benefit of that doubt.

Benefit of *what* doubt? By chance are you confusing this thread with the impeachment thread? There’s no point of fact that is contested with regards to the Gallagher case or the other war crimes files. Trump doesn’t deny any actions attributed to him here. On the contrary he positively revels in them. He DID interfere in navy proceedings regarding  Gallagher’s career status. He DID reverse his demotion. He DID order that he would keep his trident. This is all public record. He DID pardon a convicted war criminal- a man convicted of murder. He DID order that another murder trial not go forward.

There’s no doubt for him to get the benefit of. It’s not in question that he *can* do these things. Yes, the president of the United States has the legal power to stop a war crimes trial and to pardon a convicted war criminal. Yes, the president has the power to reach as deeply into the internal workings of military discipline, conduct, and performance as he feels and to meddle to his heart’s content.

Not a single person here contests that. The line is drawn between those that are specifically ok with him doing it and are willing to defend it (you and a scant few others seem on that side, though you seem reluctant to clarify what if any lines you aren’t comfortable seeing crossed), and those of us who are not ok with the legal, but unethical and immoral actions. These are not impeachment fodder, but they are the mark of an unprincipled and self-interested politician who will use the military for whatever crass ends catch his fancy between tweets. He forces the profession of arms to dishonor itself.

 

[Baz]

Brihard: agreed.

But I fear that a segment of society is so convinced that he is the only one that can "drain the swamp" and therefore he can do no wrong... anyone who opposes him is part of the "deep state," including members of his own military who have a long record of honorable service.

 

[Remius]

https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/27/politics/eddie-gallagher-navy-seals-video-interviews/index.html

Looks like his platoon mates had a strong opinion of him...

 

[QV]

https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/27/politics/eddie-gallagher-navy-seals-video-interviews/index.html

Looks like his platoon mates had a strong opinion of him...

For context, the CNN article has three platoon members with something bad to say and one of them was the actual person (SCOTT) who admitted to killing the wounded prisoner Gallagher was on trial for.  No wonder Gallagher was acquitted at trial.

       

 

[brihard]

For context, the CNN article has three platoon members with something bad to say and one of them was the actual person (SCOTT) who admitted to killing the wounded prisoner Gallagher was on trial for.  No wonder Gallagher was acquitted at trial.

Given the difficulty of prosecuting offences in a war zone, and the typical SEAL code of silence, I’m not surprised he was acquitted of most (but not all) charges. I’m inclined, however, to believe the seven members of his platoon who testified against him over his account. For this many SEALs to turn on one of their own and to describe the things they described in sworn testimony is damning.

I stand by my opinion of him. He is a war criminal and a disgrace, and it’s disgraceful and damaging to the profession of arms for the administration to have coddled and supported him.

National Post has a good article on this one: https://nationalpost.com/news/world/the-guy-is-freaking-evil-colleagues-say-navy-seal-pardoned-by-trump-cared-primarily-about-kill-counts

 

[Jarnhamar]

Eddie Gallagher ‘Is Freaking Evil’ Says Fellow Navy SEAL in Damning Leaked Videos

“You could tell he was perfectly OK with killing anybody that was moving,” said a Navy SEAL member in the special operations chief’s platoon

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/edward-gallagher-navy-seal-leaked-videos-931710/


Given these guys are essentially trained assassins I'm not surprised to read one of them described as okay with killing anyone that was moving.
Is that really a surprising admission though?

When the SEAL Team 10 2007 Lone survivor story broke the ethical dilemma of whether the team should have murdered the young boy and grandfather who discovered them, thus safeguarding the teams presence, was pretty big. A lot of people seemed to be perfectly fine (within the realm of online debating of course) with murdering the goat herders (or lookouts) to protect the SEALs.

Lots of justification why murdering them was okay, including the fact that the 9/11 hijackers trained in Afghanistan (trained what exactly I have no idea).

Eddie Gallagher seems to be pretty crazy and I'm absolutely not making excuses here but maybe the problems we're seeing surfacing (heh!) with the SEALs goes deeper than shitty leadership in the unit or a shitty culture in their teams.  Maybe it's a reflection of what their society are willing to deem acceptable behavior 'for freedom'.

And it appears their president not only just validated it but is promoting it as heroic.

 

[OldSolduer]

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/edward-gallagher-navy-seal-leaked-videos-931710/


Given these guys are essentially trained assassins I'm not surprised to read one of them described as okay with killing anyone that was moving.
Is that really a surprising admission though?

When the SEAL Team 10 2007 Lone survivor story broke the ethical dilemma of whether the team should have murdered the young boy and grandfather who discovered them, thus safeguarding the teams presence, was pretty big. A lot of people seemed to be perfectly fine (within the realm of online debating of course) with murdering the goat herders (or lookouts) to protect the SEALs.

Lots of justification why murdering them was okay, including the fact that the 9/11 hijackers trained in Afghanistan (trained what exactly I have no idea).

Eddie Gallagher seems to be pretty crazy and I'm absolutely not making excuses here but maybe the problems we're seeing surfacing (heh!) with the SEALs goes deeper than shitty leadership in the unit or a shitty culture in their teams.  Maybe it's a reflection of what their society are willing to deem acceptable behavior 'for freedom'.

And it appears their president not only just validated it but is promoting it as heroic.

Read "Bravo Two Zero". Its a similar story about an SAS patrol compromised during Gulf War 1 deep inside Iraq. IIRC the patrol also considered "slotting' the  sheep or goat herder as well, but elected not to.

Contact with the locals on these two deep missions seem to have been overlooked.

 

[Remius]

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/edward-gallagher-navy-seal-leaked-videos-931710/

Given these guys are essentially trained assassins I'm not surprised to read one of them described as okay with killing anyone that was moving.
Is that really a surprising admission though?

Eddie Gallagher seems to be pretty crazy and I'm absolutely not making excuses here but maybe the problems we're seeing surfacing (heh!) with the SEALs goes deeper than shitty leadership in the unit or a shitty culture in their teams.  Maybe it's a reflection of what their society are willing to deem acceptable behavior 'for freedom'.

Good points.  But given that it was his own peers (other trained assassins)  that reported him, and then described him as unhinged should be an indication that Gallagher's behaviour  was a bit more than they were willing to accept even by their own standards. 

 

[FJAG]

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/edward-gallagher-navy-seal-leaked-videos-931710/
...
When the SEAL Team 10 2007 Lone survivor story broke the ethical dilemma of whether the team should have murdered the young boy and grandfather who discovered them, thus safeguarding the teams presence, was pretty big. A lot of people seemed to be perfectly fine (within the realm of online debating of course) with murdering the goat herders (or lookouts) to protect the SEALs.

Lots of justification why murdering them was okay, including the fact that the 9/11 hijackers trained in Afghanistan (trained what exactly I have no idea).
...

If I had a nickle for every time this type of scenario came up during one of my LOAC lectures ...

Suffice it to say that there were always a significant number of students who were uncomprehending as to why they couldn't just "waste the f**ers" and who didn't respond well to being told that in consequence they would spend the rest of their lives in jail.

:cheers:

 

[Retired AF Guy]

For context, the CNN article has three platoon members with something bad to say and one of them was the actual person (SCOTT) who admitted to killing the wounded prisoner Gallagher was on trial for.  No wonder Gallagher was acquitted at trial.

My understanding is that the medics (Scott) actions took place after the ISIS member had been stabbed by Gallagher. His admission was also the opposite of what several other witnesses had seen and what Scott had previous stated.

Wikipedia has more here.

 

[mariomike]

Eddie strikes back,

https://www.google.com/search?q=eddie+gallagher&sxsrf=ACYBGNSQnzsc6j9jAXURS_WDWVVYA36kCQ:1580250679692&source=lnt&tbs=qdr:d&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjt46zDrKfnAhXpUt8KHSCHDs0QpwV6BAgPEBs&biw=1280&bih=641#spf=1580250697757

 

[brihard]

Eddie strikes back,

https://www.google.com/search?q=eddie+gallagher&sxsrf=ACYBGNSQnzsc6j9jAXURS_WDWVVYA36kCQ:1580250679692&source=lnt&tbs=qdr:d&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjt46zDrKfnAhXpUt8KHSCHDs0QpwV6BAgPEBs&biw=1280&bih=641#spf=1580250697757

I consider his numerous teammates who testified under oath to be considerably more consistent and credible. At this point I don't put any stock in what he said.

I'm not surprised he's cranky, he has deservedly seen his career end from this, despite avoiding accountability for the bulk of the choices he made. But his self-pity party is exactly that.

 

[FJAG]

Top Navy SEAL commander to resign after apparent disagreements with Trump
David Choi Feb 4, 2020, 9:01 AM

Special Warfare Rear Adm. Collin Green, the US Navy admiral responsible for the service's special-operations forces, will step down from his position in September, The Intercept reported over the weekend.

Green, the commander of Naval Special Warfare Command, graduated from the US Naval Academy in 1986 and completed the Basic Underwater Demolition/SEAL course two years later. He served in SEAL Teams 2, 3, and 5 and in senior roles for NATO's special-operations command and US Central Command.

His retirement follows the controversial court-martial of Special Warfare Operator Chief Eddie Gallagher. Green moved to withdraw Gallagher's Trident pin, which signifies membership in the Navy SEAL community.

Green in November ordered a peer evaluation of Gallagher, who had been demoted and charged with war crimes, including the murder of an ISIS prisoner of war and the shooting of two people in Iraq in 2017. Gallagher was acquitted of those counts but convicted of a lesser charge of posing for a picture with the dead ISIS fighter.

However, President Donald Trump intervened in the Navy's judicial system to free Gallagher from pretrial detention and to restore his rank after the conviction. Trump said that he was "sticking up for our armed forces" and that "there's never been a president that's going to stick up for them, and has, like I have."

The apparent disagreement between Green and the White House fueled the controversy in the Gallagher case.

"There's a long tradition in the military," Timothy Parlatore, Gallagher's civilian attorney, told Navy Times. "You don't rebel. You resign."

The incident led to other resignations by Navy leaders. Navy Secretary Richard Spencer was forced to resign after expressing disagreement with Trump's actions. According to a New York Times report, Spencer and Green had threatened to resign if Trump intervened on Gallagher's behalf.

After his ouster in November, Spencer told CBS News that he did not believe Trump "really understands the full definition of a warfighter."

"What message does that send to the troops?" said Spencer, a former Marine officer. "That you can get away with things. We have to have good order and discipline. It's the backbone of what we do, and the Trident review process with the senior enlisted reviewing fellow senior enlisted is critical.

"The senior enlisted of our military are the backbone of our military," Spencer added. "They are the girder of good order and discipline. They can handle this. They can handle this in each one of their communities."

https://www.businessinsider.com/navy-seal-resigns-disagreements-with-trump-collin-green-2020-2

 

[daftandbarmy]

"We have good corporals and good sergeants and some good lieutenants and captains, and those are far more important than good generals."
   

William Tecumseh Sherman

So, let's make sure that, at least, we have good Sergeants...