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US Presidential Election 2024 - Trump vs Harris - Vote Hard with a Vengence

You don’t seem to have anything to refute any of it though.

Not saying I agree but what do you have beyond a one word non backed retort?

Trump isn't an unknown quantity. You have a lifetime of public persona, TV, appearances on talk shows, interviews, etc... and four years as POTUS to measure him against. He is one of the most well known public figures in the US. I don't have to refute Lumber's post. It is ludicrous.
 
Trump isn't an unknown quantity. You have a lifetime of public persona, TV, appearances on talk shows, interviews, etc... and four years as POTUS to measure him against. He is one of the most well known public figures in the US. I don't have to refute Lumber's post. It is ludicrous.
Absolutely. And we are using said 4 years, as well as the state of the party now, to base the claims.
 
Trump isn't an unknown quantity. You have a lifetime of public persona, TV, appearances on talk shows, interviews, etc... and four years as POTUS to measure him against. He is one of the most well known public figures in the US. I don't have to refute Lumber's post. It is ludicrous.
Again, that isn’t really a refutation of the points though. All you’ve done is provide the library of content that is being used to make the claim that he and maga is facist or at least facist like.

My interest lies in the other side’s refutation points that dispels or disputes those claims.

Lumber provided a list with some justifications as to why the claim is made. It is a simple exercise to counter those points if a counter exists.

Perhaps an agreement on the definition of fascism is in order. Is Lumber’s definition of facism a wrong one and if not the what is a better definition?
 
Trump isn't an unknown quantity. You have a lifetime of public persona, TV, appearances on talk shows, interviews, etc... and four years as POTUS to measure him against. He is one of the most well known public figures in the US. I don't have to refute Lumber's post. It is ludicrous.
You're using the wrong yardstick.

You think that because he didn't outlaw other political parties that he isn't a fascist.
You think that because he didn't enact emergency powers that allowed him to act outside the constitution that he isn't a fascist.
You think that because Muslims or Mexican immigrants didn't end up in concentration camps that he isn't a fascist.

Don't look only at what he did do or did not do during his term in office. Rather, look at what he tried to do, how he did/does things, and what he himself has expressed an interest in doing.
 
I will concede that comparing Trump to Hitler and to MAGA as Nazis is not an accurate comparison. Calling the rally at MSG a "Nazi rally" is also, inaccurate. Clearly, the Democrats are inflaming the situation for political expediency, and as someone who wishes for everyone to call a spade a spade, I disagree with this tactic. It's like calling every civilian death anywhere "genocide". It's cheapens the word.

However, what you CAN call Trump, MAGA, and the MSG rally in particular, is fascist.

Key aspects of fascism:
  • Cult of Personality: Fascist movements often center around a charismatic leader who is portrayed as a savior. At the rally, Trump frequently referred to himself in grandiose terms, emphasizing his unique ability to lead and restore America. This self-aggrandizing rhetoric created a sense of dependency among attendees, reflecting a classic fascist reliance on a singular, dominant figure.
  • Populist Rhetoric Against Elites: Fascism typically employs a populist narrative that pits "the people" against a perceived corrupt elite. Throughout the rally, Trump and other speakers condemned political elites and media figures, framing them as enemies of the common citizen. This "us versus them" mentality is a hallmark of fascist discourse, designed to unify supporters against a common adversary.
  • Nationalism and Xenophobia: Fascist movements emphasize an extreme form of nationalism, often accompanied by xenophobia. At the rally, there were overt calls to prioritize American interests over those of immigrants and foreign nations, including derogatory comments aimed at immigrants. This rhetoric fosters an exclusionary nationalism that aligns with fascist ideologies.
  • Violence and Intimidation: Fascism often employs or endorses violence as a means of achieving political ends. During the rally, there were veiled threats of violence against political opponents, with Trump suggesting that those who oppose his agenda should face consequences. Such language can incite aggression and reflects the fascist tendency to normalize violence in the political sphere.
  • Rejection of Democratic Norms: Fascist movements frequently undermine democratic institutions and norms. At the event, speakers expressed disdain for electoral processes, hinting at the illegitimacy of outcomes that do not favor Trump. This rhetoric not only questions the integrity of democracy but also encourages a mindset where the rejection of democratic principles is justified if they conflict with the movement's goals.

It was fascist rally. Trump is a fascist. MAGA is fascist.
Key aspects of fascism are corporatism and the subordination of legislature, courts, military, and media to the leader. None of those are in evidence. Because those attributes as well as the ones you cited can be found in other ideologies, it's necessary to have the complete package. Otherwise you might as well be describing communism - cult of personality (Lenin, Stalin, Mao), the people against the elite (workers and bosses), nationalism and xenophobia (motherland, ethnocentrism favouring particular groups), violence and threats against opponents and dissidents, rejection of democratic norms.

It also doesn't sell well when the accusers are guilty of the same specifics. Veiled threats against judiciary. Hillary Clinton calling Trump "illegitimate", more than once. Deprecation of the USSC because it doesn't make "correct" decisions. Constant efforts to censor conservative media.

Trying to hard to fit people in the fascist shoe just makes fascism a useless descriptor and weakens the arguments of whoever is doing it. If fascism ever really does come to the US, it'll be progressives that bring it. They're the ones who are openly hostile to elements of the constitution and who are proposing major institutional changes.

Republicans are going to keep the constitution. They will nominate and confirm federal judges and USSC justices as slots become available, but they won't propose legislation to pack the USSC or force anyone off of it. They will respect processes for nomination and confirmation of appointed positions. They will act independently of the executive in Congress if they control it, and won't overthrow Democrats if they don't. Elections will continue to be held normally. Officers of the US military will still swear oaths to the constitution. Republicans may act to curb illegal immigration, but will continue to support legal paths of immigration and citizenship. They will not be rounding up people who haven't broken laws for imprisonment or deportation. They are not going to appoint government censors to sit alongside the editorial staff in the media. They are unlikely to be the ones dressed in black rioting in the streets whenever the next social justice cause breaks. If you believe Trump and Republicans are imminently fascist, you have to believe almost none of these things will be true.
 
Key aspects of fascism are corporatism and the subordination of legislature, courts, military, and media to the leader. None of those are in evidence. Because those attributes as well as the ones you cited can be found in other ideologies, it's necessary to have the complete package. Otherwise you might as well be describing communism - cult of personality (Lenin, Stalin, Mao), the people against the elite (workers and bosses), nationalism and xenophobia (motherland, ethnocentrism favouring particular groups), violence and threats against opponents and dissidents, rejection of democratic norms.

It also doesn't sell well when the accusers are guilty of the same specifics. Veiled threats against judiciary. Hillary Clinton calling Trump "illegitimate", more than once. Deprecation of the USSC because it doesn't make "correct" decisions. Constant efforts to censor conservative media.

Trying to hard to fit people in the fascist shoe just makes fascism a useless descriptor and weakens the arguments of whoever is doing it. If fascism ever really does come to the US, it'll be progressives that bring it. They're the ones who are openly hostile to elements of the constitution and who are proposing major institutional changes.

Republicans are going to keep the constitution. They will nominate and confirm federal judges and USSC justices as slots become available, but they won't propose legislation to pack the USSC or force anyone off of it. They will respect processes for nomination and confirmation of appointed positions. They will act independently of the executive in Congress if they control it, and won't overthrow Democrats if they don't. Elections will continue to be held normally. Officers of the US military will still swear oaths to the constitution. Republicans may act to curb illegal immigration, but will continue to support legal paths of immigration and citizenship. They will not be rounding up people who haven't broken laws for imprisonment or deportation. They are not going to appoint government censors to sit alongside the editorial staff in the media. They are unlikely to be the ones dressed in black rioting in the streets whenever the next social justice cause breaks. If you believe Trump and Republicans are imminently fascist, you have to believe almost none of these things will be true.
I very deliberately did not say I thought Republicans were fascist. I do not think the the GOP or republicans at large are fascist. I believe Trump and MAGA are fascist.

Edit to add:

It's a mistake to equate fascism and communism; they have fundamentally different goals and methods. Fascism is built on extreme nationalism, promoting the idea of a superior group and often scapegoating others to create a sense of unity. Communism, on the other hand, focuses on class struggle and aims to eliminate social hierarchies. While both can lead to authoritarianism, they emerge from different ideologies and contexts, so using one to define the other oversimplifies the discussion.

When it comes to Trump, even if he didn’t fully achieve a fascist regime, his actions and rhetoric demonstrate fascist traits. His "America First" stance and harsh rhetoric toward immigrants reflect a nationalist sentiment reminiscent of fascism. He cultivated a personal loyalty that often overshadowed institutional norms, and his repeated attacks on the electoral process—claiming widespread fraud without evidence—undermine trust in democratic institutions. This pattern of delegitimizing the electoral system is a tactic often seen in fascist regimes, aimed at consolidating power by discrediting opposition and creating an environment of fear and suspicion.

Regarding Republicans not letting this happen, that's exactly what they said in 1939:

Both within Germany and abroad, there were initially few fears that Hitler could use his position to establish his later dictatorial single-party regime. Rather, the conservatives that helped to make him chancellor were convinced that they could control Hitler and "tame" the Nazi Party while setting the relevant impulses in the government themselves; foreign ambassadors played down worries by emphasizing that Hitler was "mediocre" if not a bad copy of Mussolini; even SPD politician Kurt Schumacher trivialized Hitler as a Dekorationsstück ("piece of scenery/decoration") of the new government. German newspapers wrote that, without doubt, the Hitler-led government would try to fight its political enemies (the left-wing parties), but that it would be impossible to establish a dictatorship in Germany because there was "a barrier, over which violence cannot proceed" and because of the German nation being proud of "the freedom of speech and thought".

Again, I'm not saying Trump is Hitler and that MAGA are Nazis, and I don't think the Trump would do the kind of evil things the Nazis did, but the above is an example of how a fascist can come to power through the naivety of "good" people.
 
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I very deliberately did not say I thought Republicans were fascist. I do not think the the GOP or republicans at large are fascist. I believe Trump and MAGA are fascist.
It makes no difference. The same applies if "MAGA" - whoever they are - are members of the administration, Congress, lower levels of government, etc. I make the same claim as to all the things they will and won't do, even without requiring that "MAGA" be nailed down to something specific (because like "fascism", one or two characteristics seem to be enough to fix the label).
It's a mistake to equate fascism and communism; they have fundamentally different goals and methods. Fascism is built on extreme nationalism, promoting the idea of a superior group and often scapegoating others to create a sense of unity. Communism, on the other hand, focuses on class struggle and aims to eliminate social hierarchies. While both can lead to authoritarianism, they emerge from different ideologies and contexts, so using one to define the other oversimplifies the discussion.
It does not oversimplify anything. They were grown from the same roots, with a couple of main ideological splits - corporatism versus public ownership, and ethnic solidarity versus class solidarity - which are subject to the unavoidable limitations of human behaviour. Most importantly, the elimination of hierarchy will never happen. There will always be a leader, a nomenklatura, a stratum of underbosses and aparatchiks and middle managers, and the proletariat. So the "classless" attribute is meaningless, and attempts to apply it are vacuous. Ethnic Russians have always been privileged, as have Han Chinese. Ask Uyghers about unity.

They wind up at the same place. Is modern China more communist or more fascist? Consider Venezuela, where Chavez would allow interests to remain private until they didn't do what he wanted, at which point he nationalized them. I observe that and conclude that the distinctions people fight so hard to make and maintain on key points (because the political left long ago worked to make the stink of Nazism a "right" ideology) do not really exist.
When it comes to Trump, even if he didn’t fully achieve a fascist regime
Fully? He didn't barely achieve a fascist regime. How the hell does a misleading word like "fully" slip in there?
, his actions and rhetoric demonstrate fascist traits. His "America First" stance and harsh rhetoric toward immigrants reflect a nationalist sentiment reminiscent of fascism. He cultivated a personal loyalty that often overshadowed institutional norms, and his repeated attacks on the electoral process—claiming widespread fraud without evidence—undermine trust in democratic institutions. This pattern of delegitimizing the electoral system is a tactic often seen in fascist regimes, aimed at consolidating power by discrediting opposition and creating an environment of fear and suspicion.
Nationalism is just nationalism until it's tied to a full suite of ideological markers. He is not the only politician who demands personal loyalty (eg. Hillary Clinton). Simple explanation: Trump attacked the system after the system attacked him. It's not hard to see why he felt persecuted, but I am perpetually amazed at the people who can't situate themselves in his place and see why he might not trust the establishment. Any diagnosis of the situation without that factor is faulty. And he is far, far from alone in deprecating "democratic institutions" (which is a long list of things).

Trump has an authoritarian instinct, as does almost anyone at the apex of an organization. Plenty of people just want to say "make it so". He is not an authoritarian. To be something, you have to pursue it. Trump lacks sense of purpose to use the power he does have to extend power to all the necessary places he would have to wield power in order to be an authoritarian. We know this from his first administration.

Here is the core of my beef. People keep seizing on a few attributes which are mostly common to flavours of totalitarianism and pronouncing the diagnosis "fascism". "Fascist traits" is a cute way of applying the "fascist" label without acknowledging that not all criteria have been examined and met, or that another ideological endpoint might be correct. It's "fascist, fascist, fascist" all the way down; a hundred-and-one disingenuous ways of applying the tag.

"Doctor, I have a high temperature and a headache and my body is sore".

"Oh dear, you have Ebola."
 
Fully? He didn't barely achieve a fascist regime. How the hell does a misleading word like "fully" slip in there?
Yea definitely a misspeak on my part. I definitely do not think he made any inroads at all to achieve a fascist regime. Please advise the jury to ignore this statement.

MTF.
 
I will concede that comparing Trump to Hitler and to MAGA as Nazis is not an accurate comparison. Calling the rally at MSG a "Nazi rally" is also, inaccurate. Clearly, the Democrats are inflaming the situation for political expediency, and as someone who wishes for everyone to call a spade a spade, I disagree with this tactic. It's like calling every civilian death anywhere "genocide". It's cheapens the word.

However, what you CAN call Trump, MAGA, and the MSG rally in particular, is fascist.

Key aspects of fascism:
  • Cult of Personality: Fascist movements often center around a charismatic leader who is portrayed as a savior. At the rally, Trump frequently referred to himself in grandiose terms, emphasizing his unique ability to lead and restore America. This self-aggrandizing rhetoric created a sense of dependency among attendees, reflecting a classic fascist reliance on a singular, dominant figure.
  • Populist Rhetoric Against Elites: Fascism typically employs a populist narrative that pits "the people" against a perceived corrupt elite. Throughout the rally, Trump and other speakers condemned political elites and media figures, framing them as enemies of the common citizen. This "us versus them" mentality is a hallmark of fascist discourse, designed to unify supporters against a common adversary.
  • Nationalism and Xenophobia: Fascist movements emphasize an extreme form of nationalism, often accompanied by xenophobia. At the rally, there were overt calls to prioritize American interests over those of immigrants and foreign nations, including derogatory comments aimed at immigrants. This rhetoric fosters an exclusionary nationalism that aligns with fascist ideologies.
  • Violence and Intimidation: Fascism often employs or endorses violence as a means of achieving political ends. During the rally, there were veiled threats of violence against political opponents, with Trump suggesting that those who oppose his agenda should face consequences. Such language can incite aggression and reflects the fascist tendency to normalize violence in the political sphere.
  • Rejection of Democratic Norms: Fascist movements frequently undermine democratic institutions and norms. At the event, speakers expressed disdain for electoral processes, hinting at the illegitimacy of outcomes that do not favor Trump. This rhetoric not only questions the integrity of democracy but also encourages a mindset where the rejection of democratic principles is justified if they conflict with the movement's goals.

It was fascist rally. Trump is a fascist. MAGA is fascist.
"I will concede that comparing Trump to Hitler and to MAGA as Nazis is not an accurate comparison. Calling the rally at MSG a "Nazi rally" is also, inaccurate. Clearly, the Democrats are inflaming the situation for political expediency, and as someone who wishes for everyone to call a spade a spade, I disagree with this tactic. It's like calling every civilian death anywhere "genocide". It's cheapens the word."
And then you go on to do exactly that. Can you be any more hypocritical?

Every single point can be nullified by switching out republican for democrat and Trump for Biden, Obama, Harris or Clinton, to name a few.

The only ones questioning the integrity of democracy and encouraging a mindset rejecting democratic principles is Lumber and those that support his premise.

The US is a republic. It's right in their Pledge of Allegiance.

'I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands.'

Why would anyone describe it otherwise.
 
Trump isn't a Nazi.

He's like a 2LT who has been appointed CO. He has no idea how to wield his authority wisely and with some kind of dignity. His bombastic personality doesn't do him any favors.
 
I very deliberately did not say I thought Republicans were fascist. I do not think the the GOP or republicans at large are fascist. I believe Trump and MAGA are fascist.

Edit to add:

It's a mistake to equate fascism and communism; they have fundamentally different goals and methods. Fascism is built on extreme nationalism, promoting the idea of a superior group and often scapegoating others to create a sense of unity. Communism, on the other hand, focuses on class struggle and aims to eliminate social hierarchies. While both can lead to authoritarianism, they emerge from different ideologies and contexts, so using one to define the other oversimplifies the discussion.

When it comes to Trump, even if he didn’t fully achieve a fascist regime, his actions and rhetoric demonstrate fascist traits. His "America First" stance and harsh rhetoric toward immigrants reflect a nationalist sentiment reminiscent of fascism. He cultivated a personal loyalty that often overshadowed institutional norms, and his repeated attacks on the electoral process—claiming widespread fraud without evidence—undermine trust in democratic institutions. This pattern of delegitimizing the electoral system is a tactic often seen in fascist regimes, aimed at consolidating power by discrediting opposition and creating an environment of fear and suspicion.

Regarding Republicans not letting this happen, that's exactly what they said in 1939:



Again, I'm not saying Trump is Hitler and that MAGA are Nazis, and I don't think the Trump would do the kind of evil things the Nazis did, but the above is an example of how a fascist can come to power through the naivety of "good" people.
Hmm. How to call someone a fascist, without calling someone a fascist.
 
The only ones questioning the integrity of democracy and encouraging a mindset rejecting democratic principles is Lumber and those that support his premise.

Did you actually type that with a straight face? Trump’s side filed and lost over 60 lawsuits and challenges largely premised on their claim that the election was not legitimately won. He continues to peddle the Big Lie about a stolen election and to suggest he did not legitimately lose. His ideological allies do the same. He tried to get the lawfully elected state electors discounted and fraudulent electors subbed in in their place to upend the electoral college vote. He tried to get his VP to refuse to certify and send it to the House, an illegitimate attempt to usurp the election results by abusing the VP’s ceremonial function.

His ideological and political allies continue to peddle the same. As recently as a couple days ago Kari Lake continues to refuse to admit she lost the Arizona governorship, and maintains that the election was stolen. On Friday, Representative Andy Harris, leader of the House Freedom Caucus, pulled the mask all the way off and said that it would make sense to convene North Carolina’s legislature on November 5th, and simply award North Carolina’s electoral votes to Trump without bothering to get the actual results from voters. This was on the flimsy excuse of the recent hurricane.

One could go on for pages and pages of examples of Trump and his ilk “questioning the integrity of democracy and encouraging a mindset rejecting democratic principles”. To try to deny that is an absolute farce. It’s been one of the pillars of his entire political and legal strategy for the last four years, since even before he lost the election.
 
Trump isn't a Nazi.

He's like a 2LT who has been appointed CO. He has no idea how to wield his authority wisely and with some kind of dignity. His bombastic personality doesn't do him any favors.
2016 to 2020 don't agree with you. He's already spent 4 successful years as POTUS.
 
2016 to 2020 don't agree with you. He's already spent 4 successful years as POTUS.
The administration was successful - most of it was approximately an average Republican administration - but it ought not be difficult to concede that he had 4 years of OJT and opportunities to learn a bit about governance, about how the US system in particular works, and how to behave like most reasonable adults, and failed to pick up much or to demonstrate that he did. If Harris weren't prone to her own brand of wishful thinking when it comes to constitutional limits or "how will you get this through Congress" despite also being in an administration for 4 years, he'd be alone on that island.
 
Did you actually type that with a straight face? Trump’s side filed and lost over 60 lawsuits and challenges largely premised on their claim that the election was not legitimately won. He continues to peddle the Big Lie about a stolen election and to suggest he did not legitimately lose. His ideological allies do the same. He tried to get the lawfully elected state electors discounted and fraudulent electors subbed in in their place to upend the electoral college vote. He tried to get his VP to refuse to certify and send it to the House, an illegitimate attempt to usurp the election results by abusing the VP’s ceremonial function.

His ideological and political allies continue to peddle the same. As recently as a couple days ago Kari Lake continues to refuse to admit she lost the Arizona governorship, and maintains that the election was stolen. On Friday, Representative Andy Harris, leader of the House Freedom Caucus, pulled the mask all the way off and said that it would make sense to convene North Carolina’s legislature on November 5th, and simply award North Carolina’s electoral votes to Trump without bothering to get the actual results from voters. This was on the flimsy excuse of the recent hurricane.

One could go on for pages and pages of examples of Trump and his ilk “questioning the integrity of democracy and encouraging a mindset rejecting democratic principles”. To try to deny that is an absolute farce. It’s been one of the pillars of his entire political and legal strategy for the last four years, since even before he lost the election.

Did he lose all 60 lawsuits or were many dismissed on lack of standing?

You have to concede that challenging elections has a long history on both sides of the aisle in the US. And arguably much more effort was put into fraudulently influencing electoral outcomes in 2020.
 
The administration was successful - most of it was approximately an average Republican administration - but it ought not be difficult to concede that he had 4 years of OJT and opportunities to learn a bit about governance, about how the US system in particular works, and how to behave like most reasonable adults, and failed to pick up much or to demonstrate that he did. If Harris weren't prone to her own brand of wishful thinking when it comes to constitutional limits or "how will you get this through Congress" despite also being in an administration for 4 years, he'd be alone on that island.
When a war is lost, do you blame the soldiers? No, you blame the general. When a corporation goes bad, do you blame the workers? No, you blame the CEO. When an administration makes gains, you credit the President. If you don't like his style, that may be understandable, but with the backing he's getting, I don't think most people care. They are willing to forsake style for substance. He could be Bozo the Clown, but if he delivers the results people want, who cares? China, Russia, North Korea and Islamist terrorists took notice and paid attention to what he promised, not his style as a politician. He has admitted that he didn't realize what he was getting into, but is much more cognizant of how Washington works. We'll have to wait a week to see how much people care about a businessman being POTUS, as opposed to a politician.
 
Wait what? In this post I literally did call Trump a fascist? And I stand by it.
Hey, it's a free country. Think what you want. It doesn't make you right. Not by a long shot.

Given trudeau's antics, are you finally willing to say the same about him?
 
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