Updated Army Service Dress project

[RangerRay]

I have thoughts…

First, since the horrible green cloth is going away with the dodo, what better time to revisit the uniform. And yes, I am biased aesthetically to the British/Australian/New Zealand pattern just because.

Since there always seems to be a shortage of operational clothing in all services, and there materials are more expensive than poly-cotton service uniforms, it makes no sense to wear them in non-ops settings. I get that they’re comfortable, but I don’t know of any other profession it’s appropriate to wear pajamas to the office. That’s really the only reason I preferred wearing combats in garrison over garrison dress. What’s needed is a practical and easy to care for ”garrison/work dress” (not the hideous blade dress we were saddled with in the 90’s) or lower order of service dress so that operational clothing doesn’t get wasted/worn out on office duty.

Another point is on the grooming standards. What often gets missed in these bun fights is the opinion of taxpayers who wouldn’t know the difference between a competent pilot or an incompetent infanteer. I can’t seem to find it online anymore, but a couple of years ago, there was a poll about modernizing the RCMP’s grooming standards. The poll found most taxpayers were not supportive of the changes and viewed them as “unprofessional”. It doesn’t matter how switched on you might be, the general public don’t like their uniformed services looking like 10 pounds of shit in a 5 pound bag. We still live in a society where first impressions count.

Rant off.

 

[FSTO]

The CA GOFO band doesn't correspond to the rank though - it's one thick band regardless of rank.

The RCAF sleeve rank is like the RCN one, so it's doubled with the shoulders, which is silly.

The thick band was on all GOFOs until the curl came back. Initially when the pips and crowns came out the band disappeared from the Army GOs but I think it was Vance who ordered it back.
Anyhoo not my monkeys ( but like a moth to the flame I can’t hep but keep commenting )

 

[Furniture]

I have thoughts…

First, since the horrible green cloth is going away with the dodo, what better time to revisit the uniform. And yes, I am biased aesthetically to the British/Australian/New Zealand pattern just because.

Since there always seems to be a shortage of operational clothing in all services, and there materials are more expensive than poly-cotton service uniforms, it makes no sense to wear them in non-ops settings. I get that they’re comfortable, but I don’t know of any other profession it’s appropriate to wear pajamas to the office. That’s really the only reason I preferred wearing combats in garrison over garrison dress. What’s needed is a practical and easy to care for ”garrison/work dress” (not the hideous blade dress we were saddled with in the 90’s) or lower order of service dress so that operational clothing doesn’t get wasted/worn out on office duty.

Another point is on the grooming standards. What often gets missed in these bun fights is the opinion of taxpayers who wouldn’t know the difference between a competent pilot or an incompetent infanteer. I can’t seem to find it online anymore, but a couple of years ago, there was a poll about modernizing the RCMP’s grooming standards. The poll found most taxpayers were not supportive of the changes and viewed them as “unprofessional”. It doesn’t matter how switched on you might be, the general public don’t like their uniformed services looking like 10 pounds of shit in a 5 pound bag. We still live in a society where first impressions count.

Rant off.

100% the bolded part.

When I joined we wore work dress to the office every day, and while it wasn't perfect, it was nicer than 3Bs. An updated wash and wear work dress that was comfortable and affordable would spare us the cost of wearing out operational kit entering data in spreadsheets, or sending emails.

While we are at it, drop hats and saluting outside of ceremonial occasions. Hats went out of fashion in the 60s, so apart from safety and comfort there is no valid reason to wear them daily now. With no hats we can drop the anachronism of saluting outside of ceremony, the troops aren't peasants and the officers aren't aristocrats. The common folk no longer doff their hats to their betters on the street, maybe we can catch up to the 1920s on that.

 

[eliminator]

Ref RCAF GO rank on both sleeves and shoulder....I think it was more about emulating the historical RAF/RCAF sleeve ranks while still maintaining 1/2/3/4 'star' (well, maple leaf) status on the shoulder when working with the USAF, especially within the NORAD realm.

Nevertheless, we're still tame compared to the RAF.

 

[FJAG]

100% the bolded part.

When I joined we wore work dress to the office every day, and while it wasn't perfect, it was nicer than 3Bs. An updated wash and wear work dress that was comfortable and affordable would spare us the cost of wearing out operational kit entering data in spreadsheets, or sending emails.

While we are at it, drop hats and saluting outside of ceremonial occasions. Hats went out of fashion in the 60s, so apart from safety and comfort there is no valid reason to wear them daily now. With no hats we can drop the anachronism of saluting outside of ceremony, the troops aren't peasants and the officers aren't aristocrats. The common folk no longer doff their hats to their betters on the street, maybe we can catch up to the 1920s on that.

I agree with all of that except the saluting part. There's no magic in the hat when it comes to saluting. It's just one of those little rules we made up. The drill can simply become salute with or without a hat.

The real question is whether or not saluting per se is an anachronism worth keeping and I honestly haven't given that a thought. My gut says keep it. Hell, even Chinese communists salute. Besides, salutes are a sign of respect that goes both ways otherwise officers wouldn't return a salute with a salute. At least that's what I was taught on my BOTC and my drill sergeants made sure I knew to always, always return a salute.

 

[Furniture]

I agree with all of that except the saluting part. There's no magic in the hat when it comes to saluting. It's just one of those little rules we made up. The drill can simply become salute with or without a hat.

The real question is whether or not saluting per se is an anachronism worth keeping and I honestly haven't given that a thought. My gut says keep it. Hell, even Chinese communists salute. Besides, salutes are a sign of respect that goes both ways otherwise officers wouldn't return a salute with a salute. At least that's what I was taught on my BOTC and my drill sergeants made sure I knew to always, always return a salute.

Saluting is an anachronism based on class, rather than respect, if it was otherwise the bar for receiving salutes would be at the earliest leadership level(S1-MS).

It's not a big deal, and I agree that it should be kept for ceremony, but if S1 Bloggins understands they have to respect a PO 2 without saluting, they can also understand they have to respect a LCdr sans salute.

 

[OldSolduer]

Just remember you’re saluting the King’s Commission. In my mind - and this tradition of saluting officers goes back centuries- it is a necessary part of military life.

 

[quadrapiper]

Thoughts on adopting a suitably Armified HCW jacket for No. 1 and 3 summer dress? Plenty of pre-unification/British/Commonwealth precedent for it.

Infinitely more comfortable than anything with a tie in warm weather.

 

[dimsum]

Ref RCAF GO rank on both sleeves and shoulder....I think it was more about emulating the historical RAF/RCAF sleeve ranks while still maintaining 1/2/3/4 'star' (well, maple leaf) status on the shoulder when working with the USAF, especially within the NORAD realm.

The RCN (and USN) Flag Officers wear only sleeve rings on their tunics, but on slip-ons and shoulder boards they wear leaves / stars. People don’t seem to be confused .

I trust that USAF folks can figure out leaves as equivalents to USAF stars.

Nevertheless, we're still tame compared to the RAF.

That’s not the norm though - I think the thick shoulder board is for a specific position. I think he was the Comd of the RAF.

 

[Halifax Tar]

While we are at it, drop hats and saluting outside of ceremonial occasions. Hats went out of fashion in the 60s, so apart from safety and comfort there is no valid reason to wear them daily now. With no hats we can drop the anachronism of saluting outside of ceremony, the troops aren't peasants and the officers aren't aristocrats. The common folk no longer doff their hats to their betters on the street, maybe we can catch up to the 1920s on that.

I like it. Or make hats an optional thing. I grew up with a Yankees hat on my head at all times and I still wear a ballcap every time I leave the house. And I was born in '79.

But IMHO the time to strict uniformity is on the drill deck. Going about your daily business, not so much.

Saluting, nothing is sacred. And perhaps this should be investigated. As the gap between Commissioned and Non has seems to be disappearing perhaps this is an anachronism that is being found wanting.

When I joined we wore work dress to the office every day, and while it wasn't perfect, it was nicer than 3Bs. An updated wash and wear work dress that was comfortable and affordable would spare us the cost of wearing out operational kit entering data in spreadsheets, or sending emails.

I don't have an issue with combats as a work dress. But I hate wearing any formal order of dress including 3Bs.

Perhaps what we need to do is reestablish the Officer/NCM relationship; and a move for Officers in staff/office positions be required to wear a more formal order of dress while NCMs wear work dress ? Peaked caps on the bridge for the officers I say

 

[FSTO]

I like it. Or make hats an optional thing. I grew up with a Yankees hat on my head at all times and I still wear a ballcap every time I leave the house. And I was born in '79.

But IMHO the time to strict uniformity is on the drill deck. Going about your daily business, not so much.

Saluting, nothing is sacred. And perhaps this should be investigated. As the gap between Commissioned and Non has seems to be disappearing perhaps this is an anachronism that is being found wanting.



I don't have an issue with combats as a work dress. But I hate wearing any formal order of dress including 3Bs.

Perhaps what we need to do is reestablish the Officer/NCM relationship and a move for that perhaps officers in Staffs positions should be required to wear a more formal order of dress while NCMs wear work dress ? Peaked caps on the bridge for the officers I say

At least for the OOW so that everyone knows who that person is.

 

[Halifax Tar]

At least for the OOW so that everyone knows who that person is.

I really have to stop posting before coffee! lol

Agreed. I think peaked caps for all officers and CPOs in ships. But I also want 8 buttons and RN styled NCM rank insignia for us, so perhaps I myself am a anachronism...

 

[dimsum]

Perhaps what we need to do is reestablish the Officer/NCM relationship; and a move for Officers in staff/office positions be required to wear a more formal order of dress while NCMs wear work dress ?

That is basically what happens in most of the NCR, except that MCpl and below wear operational dress all the time.

At least for the OOW so that everyone knows who that person is.

Or a specially-coloured patch.

"I have the watch. I have the patch."

Yes I am being facetious.

 

[FSTO]

Or a specially-coloured patch.

"I have the watch. I have the patch."

Yes I am being facetious.

I’d rather have the skull cap with a blinking light on top!

 

[Edward Campbell]

So, this?

 

[Halifax Tar]

So, this?

I like it.

 

[Edward Campbell]

I like it.

I think it looks terminally bloody silly, but, I repeat, as long as this is OK for the Unknown Soldier, then why not that for any ceremonial occasion including the GG and a state/royal visit?

 

[mariomike]

Another point is on the grooming standards.

We still live in a society where first impressions count.

I believe that to be especially true when entering someone's home as a professional.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I think it looks terminally bloody silly, but, I repeat, as long as this is OK for the Unknown Soldier, then why not that for any ceremonial occasion including the GG and a state/royal visit?

Maybe those occasions you mention should call for a ceremonial uniform and organization, vice service dress and anyone ?

 

[Furniture]

Just remember you’re saluting the King’s Commission. In my mind - and this tradition of saluting officers goes back centuries- it is a necessary part of military life.

Traditions like that have a place on the parade square, and in other ceremonies/routines, but don't add value in the daily routine.

It doesn't need to be big parades, simple things are like reporting to the OOW, crossing the brow of a ship, etc., are all mini routine ceremonial events. They are a link back to the past and tradition far more than a groggy high five in a poorly lit parking lot at 0530 is.

Edit: The Avr getting jacked up at at sunrise because they couldn't see the half hidden subdued bars on a Capt.'s flight suit slip-ons isn't thinking about the traditional link back to the days of buying commissions from the crown.