Updated Army Service Dress project

[rmc_wannabe]

https://www.army.mod.uk/news-and-events/news/2023/03/his-majesty-the-kings-coronation-heralds-new-era-for-british-army-cap-badges/

Looks like the British went and redesigned all the cap badges at once. I suppose it will take considerable time to actually produce and issue, but I was under the impression that it would be a more gradual process.

My guess is that we will see the Tudor Crown ranks come in with the new uniforms.

Enh.... Not necessarily.

His Majesty's royal cipher in the UK uses the Tudor Crown



His Majesty's cipher in Scotland uses the Scottish Crown (looks very similar to St. Edward's Crown)



This is due in part to there being separate Colleges of Arms for Scotland and the other parts of the UK. Canada has its own College of Arms and thus far, there hasn't been any announcement or changes to Canadian Heraldry items since the ascension in September 2022.

Hell, we haven't seen an official Canadian portrait of His Majesty yet, let alone changes with currency or medals. I think this will be a can that gets kicked down the road until the 6th of May, when CHA finally says "oh crap....uh....here!" Like a highschool student leaving their essay to the last minute

 

[Kilted]

Enh.... Not necessarily.

His Majesty's royal cipher in the UK uses the Tudor Crown

View attachment 77051

His Majesty's cipher in Scotland uses the Scottish Crown (looks very similar to St. Edward's Crown)

View attachment 77052

This is due in part to there being separate Colleges of Arms for Scotland and the other parts of the UK. Canada has its own College of Arms and thus far, there hasn't been any announcement or changes to Canadian Heraldry items since the ascension in September 2022.

Hell, we haven't seen an official Canadian portrait of His Majesty yet, let alone changes with currency or medals. I think this will be a can that gets kicked down the road until the 6th of May, when CHA finally says "oh crap....uh....here!" Like a highschool student leaving their essay to the last minute

I don't think that it is the CHA that is dragging their feet on this. This must be the most exciting time to be a Herald in Canada since the creation of the CHA.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

I don't think that it is the CHA that is dragging their feet on this. This must be the most exciting time to be a Herald in Canada since the creation of the CHA.

Fair point.

Perhaps they have everything in their back pocket and are in Watch and Shoot mode, waiting for the nod from Her Excellency the GG to pull the trigger.

Then again, I have very little faith that any organization at Rideau Hall would be that practical

 

[RangerRay]

The Winnipeg Police Service updated their badge a couple weeks ago.

 

[GK .Dundas]

The Winnipeg Police Service updated their badge a couple weeks ago.

View attachment 77057

Again ?
Didn't they do it just a couple years ago?

 

[WLSC]

The Winnipeg Police Service updated their badge a couple weeks ago.

View attachment 77057

That would funny IF and I doubt Canada decide to keep this crown as the House of Canada

 

[torg003]

Getting back to the uniform topic (sorry), I wonder if things might have gone a bit more smoothly if the CF greens hadn't been adopted during unification. There seemed to be a bit (or a lot) of resistance to the new uniform, which may have been lessened if they had chosen a different colour. I was thinking what might have happened if they had gone with a dark grey (charcoal or a bit lighter) and had different colours for the cloth backing for NCM insignia and "lights" between the gold lace for officers. I was also thinking that cloth band of the same colour could've been attached to the hat band area of the peaked cap. I was thinking something along the lines of red for army trades, dark blue for navy, sky blue for air personnel, as well as other colours for trades that weren't element specific (such as a darker red for medical personnel, etc.).
This kind of idea might have made unification go over a bit better than it did (or maybe not), but I think might have been better than what we have now. If there's going to be different uniforms for Army, Navy, and AF, then just de-unify and have separate services under the DND. Just a thought.

BTW, why do army uniforms have to been green, khaki, brown, or some earthy colour? It's not like troops wear them into battle. The new army uniform could just as well be black, grey, dark blue, red, or even purple (OK, not the last one).

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Shhh you'll wake Zombie Heyller.

Seriously though, uniforms did not need to change with the original intent of the reorganization of the CAF from 3 distinct services to one unified force. The goal was entirely to streamline administration, logistics, training, and overall C2. Where things went off the rails was trying to model a national force with 3 distinct histories, traditions, and cultures off the USMC: which is itself a cadet branch of the U.S. Navy.

The Marines, while are pretty much a self sustaining force, maintain traditions and an appearance that has gone largely unchanged since 10 Nov 1775. Even then, there are cultural divides between the fleet, the MEUs, Air Wing, and everywhere else within the Corps.

Trying to Voltron the CA, RCN, and RCAF would have been difficult enough with the personalities involved. The fact that they burnt the barn down with the horses in it to build a new one created far more headaches than were needed.

The Rifle Green DEU can die an honourable death and we can move on from that last relic of 1970s fashion. I would personally rather see a return to Patrols for parade and do away with the No 3 service dress concept entirely. Then again, I don't make the rules so

 

[torg003]

If you run for office you could (in theory) make the rules (but you'd have to be made minister of National Defense).
Anyway, I'm wondering if they'd gone with a dark blue uniform for all (the army did have dress blues at one time) instead of the ugly green, might have gone a bit better. Personally, I think that the navy is unique enough in it's role and traditions, that it should be separate from the Army and AF (that is, a separate entity within DND, not a separate Department of the Navy, or anything like that).
Why not have Ceremonial dress for parades? The public would probably like to see soldiers marching in scarlet jackets, black pants with the stripe down the leg, and whatever silly hat the regiment wears than they would with everyone wearing their normal uniform.

 

[haidendyck]

Shhh you'll wake Zombie Heyller.

Seriously though, uniforms did not need to change with the original intent of the reorganization of the CAF from 3 distinct services to one unified force. The goal was entirely to streamline administration, logistics, training, and overall C2. Where things went off the rails was trying to model a national force with 3 distinct histories, traditions, and cultures off the USMC: which is itself a cadet branch of the U.S. Navy.

The Marines, while are pretty much a self sustaining force, maintain traditions and an appearance that has gone largely unchanged since 10 Nov 1775. Even then, there are cultural divides between the fleet, the MEUs, Air Wing, and everywhere else within the Corps.

Trying to Voltron the CA, RCN, and RCAF would have been difficult enough with the personalities involved. The fact that they burnt the barn down with the horses in it to build a new one created far more headaches than were needed.

The Rifle Green DEU can die an honourable death and we can move on from that last relic of 1970s fashion. I would personally rather see a return to Patrols for parade and do away with the No 3 service dress concept entirely. Then again, I don't make the rules so

I think the reason for khaki in particular is its association with the CA during WWII. It also is probably the most recognisable symbol of a commonwealth army out there. I do like patrols, but I'd far rather see Khaki and regimental head-dresses (stetsons for cavalry, wedges/services caps, etc) than see a soul-less, standardised Patrol DEU.

 

[Castus]

Shhh you'll wake Zombie Heyller.

He has been subsumed and taken up by his alien friends, and now watches us from above like a malevolent patron spirit of unification. We must invoke our old saints to battle this malignant creature.

 

[Maxman1]

Here's a photo of Hellyer with a sailor in Square Rig, which was posted in an article on his passing last year.

 

[torg003]

Are you sure that's not a sea cadet? Seems pretty short.
Or maybe it's an alien dressed in square rig.

 

[Blackadder1916]

Are you sure that's not a sea cadet? Seems pretty short.
Or maybe it's an alien dressed in square rig.

His cap tally starts with HM . . . Sea Cadet tallys didn't use HMCS.

 

[torg003]

Good eye, Mr. Blackadder!

 

[dimsum]

I would personally rather see a return to Patrols for parade and do away with the No 3 service dress concept entirely.

I hate myself for thinking/saying this, but being in the NCR I do see a point for DEU.

If you're a senior officer in a meeting with equivalent Public Service folks, what should you wear? The PS folks would be wearing at least a button-down shirt, slacks, and dress shoes. Maybe a blazer/suit jacket, maybe a tie. Same with a conference, with industry and potentially other nations' militaries.

Patrols is too formal, and operational dress is too informal.

Something I would totally get rid of (or change drastically) is the damn sweater. The current iteration is awful in every sense - either return to the old thick wool version which is not an amorphous blob with a douche-neck V, or change it to a zippered sweater. I prefer the latter.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

I hate myself for thinking/saying this, but being in the NCR I do see a point for DEU.

If you're a senior officer in a meeting with equivalent Public Service folks, what should you wear? The PS folks would be wearing at least a button-down shirt, slacks, and dress shoes. Maybe a blazer/suit jacket, maybe a tie. Same with a conference, with industry and potentially other nations' militaries.

Patrols is too formal, and operational dress is too informal.

Something I would totally get rid of (or change drastically) is the damn sweater. The current iteration is awful in every sense - either return to the old thick wool version which is not an amorphous blob with a douche-neck V, or change it to a zippered sweater. I prefer the latter.

Then make it an optional Tier Item for pers posted to the NCR. Open up the No 3 catalogue once you're in that location.

Having spent the majority of my career in the field force, I am either in operational wear for most of my day to day or some iteration of number 1s for ceremonial occasions. That is most of the field force in general. I haven't seen hide nor hair of my 3C Sweater since it was shoved in a duffel bag after BMQ. That was 16 years and a good 60 lbs ago...

 

[dimsum]

Then make it an optional Tier Item for pers posted to the NCR. Open up the No 3 catalogue once you're in that location.

Having spent the majority of my career in the field force, I am either in operational wear for most of my day to day or some iteration of number 1s for ceremonial occasions. That is most of the field force in general. I haven't seen hide nor hair of my 3C Sweater since it was shoved in a duffel bag after BMQ. That was 16 years and a good 60 lbs ago...

I mean, is there a functional difference between opening up a catalogue when you're posted to a specific location, or just not using the points?

Folks in staff postings already get more points to use (or not use).

 

[haidendyck]

I hate myself for thinking/saying this, but being in the NCR I do see a point for DEU.

If you're a senior officer in a meeting with equivalent Public Service folks, what should you wear? The PS folks would be wearing at least a button-down shirt, slacks, and dress shoes. Maybe a blazer/suit jacket, maybe a tie. Same with a conference, with industry and potentially other nations' militaries.

Patrols is too formal, and operational dress is too informal.

Something I would totally get rid of (or change drastically) is the damn sweater. The current iteration is awful in every sense - either return to the old thick wool version which is not an amorphous blob with a douche-neck V, or change it to a zippered sweater. I prefer the latter.

RMC has a an undress uniform that swaps out the patrol tunics for windbreakers and sweaters. It's a great balance, as it gives the option of looking more business-casual, while keeping the ceremonial uniform (patrol dress) looming sharp.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

I mean, is there a functional difference between opening up a catalogue when you're posted to a specific location, or just not using the points?

Folks in staff postings already get more points to use (or not use).

Then convert the points used in the field force from No 3 to No 1. Provide initial issue and then provide the catalogue option based on UIC. If you are going to need CADPAT most of the year, you have that catalogue unlocked to replenish what you use day to day. HQ? Welcome to No 3 Catalogue Land. Ceremonial is your main jam (Bands, CG, etc...) You have more options for No 1 items.

Its easy enough to set this up in a Database, but then again, I also have seen Career Management via Excel spreadsheet so I have my doubts.