• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

U.S. 2012 Election

On Nov 6 Who Will Win President Obama or Mitt Romney ?

  • President Obama

    Votes: 39 61.9%
  • Mitt Romney

    Votes: 24 38.1%

  • Total voters
    63
  • Poll closed .
By the way, I agree with Niall Ferguson that "Mitt Romney is not the best candidate for the presidency ... but he was clearly the best of the Republican contenders for the nomination ... [and] he brings to the presidency precisely the kind of experience - both in the business world and in executive office - that Barack Obama manifestly lacked four years ago ... and by picking Ryan as his running mate, Romney has given the first real sign that - unlike Obama - he is a courageous leader who will not duck the challenges America faces."

We, Canadians, care about the next US president because he, it will be one of two men, will make decisions (of commission or omission) that will sideswipe us. We should wish that the choice our American friends will make will be between two heavyweights; sadly it will not be - we will get a seasoned, professional lightweight (Romney) or four more years of an amateur featherweight (Obama).
 
E.R. Campbell said:
You're welcome.

Thanks. I'd read it long ago. A few times, because I couldn't believe Newsweek published it at first glance, and then wanted to try to understand the arguments. Then all the fact checks came out, several of which are quite good.

Perhaps then I should steer you to this:

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/08/a-full-factcheck-of-niall-fergusons-very-bad-argument-against-obama/261306/

It takes apart several of the key arguments. Including the dateshifting. And the automatic spending cut deal. And the fact that Ferguson doesn't cite a source on his claims about median household incomes but that one of the more credible sources does and they are half what he claims? That rather than make reasoned arguments against PPACA, or what's happened with unemployment, he makes exaggerated claims. That he outright lies about the impact of Obamacare/PPACA on the deficit. That the whole thing is full of cognitive dissonance that rivals what's coming out of the Romney camp (as cupper alluded to). It explains why his assessment of the "fiscal gap" is a ridiculous prediction (because it assumes a 70 year timeline!) It also hacks into how debt-to-GDP, not debt-to-revenue is what matters.

There's also this which is more concise. http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/08/as-a-harvard-alum-i-apologize/261308/

The fact is, Ferguson doesn't present much in the way of cogent arguments, and he makes arguments that are disingenuous - and I'm sure he knew that.

I find myself particularly curious about the claim that Romney is a courageous leader. So courageous that he seems incapable of sticking to a position on just about anything. I don't know that he's presented anything that's particularly courageous, except maybe bringing out Paul Ryan, whose medicare ideas are already causing a backlash in some GOP circles. We'll see how it turns out.
 
As Edward says, it isn't about facts but about the "narrative". The US employment graph is pretty compelling "fact", since it clearly shows the assumptions and predictions of the Administration, as well as the actual results (so compelling that Instapundit, one of the most widely read blogs in the world, now posts it every day), yet when it is brought up it is ignored or passed over. I notice that none of the Administrations supporters (on ANY forum) will ever speak to the graphic, most likely because the two solid lines "were" the narrative in 2008, but arer not the narrative now.

The Washington examiner does a similar job here on the GM bailout; the conclusion is pretty straightforward and obvious yet the Administration campaigns on the "success" of the GM bailout (""So now I want to say that what we did with the auto industry, we can do in manufacturing across America. ") without any hard questions or commentary from the Legacy media.

 
Having read Krugman and Sullivan's responses and a handful of derived blog posts, I surmise that few - none of which I am aware - of the rebuttals which touch on the employment criticism will directly admit to the incontrovertible point that employment has not recovered, or even come close.  They continue to hide behind the false notion that Obama's accomplishments can only be measured relative to conditions as they existed on Obama's inauguration day.  That is either egregiously sloppy thinking or the abdication of rigour in favour of partisanship.  Every president must address issues which started before he took office.

Ferguson's article is not a bunch of fallacies.  The fallacies lie in the minds of people who introduce their own assumptions about what is to be measured and then demonstrate that Ferguson's conclusions are inappropriate to the new set of premises.  But new premises == different argument.

The "logical" case for Romney/Ryan is that they have proposals different from the administration's, while the administration favours continuation of policies which have not restored employment or reduced the deficit back to pre-recession levels.  The administration has had enough time to pursue its ideology, and has failed; it is time to try something different.  That is the fundamental point.  There is the way things were pre-recession, and the way things are now almost four years into a new administration.  No amount of clever finger-pointing and calendar-slicing can conceal the difference.

And Todd Akin's blunder is his, not anyone else's, to disavow or embrace.  No person with an intellectual backbone should expect any other person to personally answer for Akin.  However, the Democratic Party and its supporters are nothing if not reliable in their readiness to jettison their supposed principles in favour of partisanship.
 
>Including the dateshifting.

I assume you wish to be counted among the people who think Obama, as a president of the US, is not responsible for addressing issues that began before he took office.
 
>It takes apart several of the key arguments...And the automatic spending cut deal.

You keep writing as if the rebuttals to Ferguson's essay are accurate, factual, and meaningful, but many are not.  The correct response to Ferguson's point about Simpson-Bowles is "true", not to hide behind "tu quoque".  Do you see who is guilty of fallacious thinking there?  If not, explain which parts of the following are untrue or a misrepresentation:

---

"Having set up a bipartisan National Commission on Fiscal Responsibility and Reform, headed by retired Wyoming Republican senator Alan Simpson and former Clinton chief of staff Erskine Bowles, Obama effectively sidelined its recommendations of approximately $3 trillion in cuts and $1 trillion in added revenues over the coming decade. As a result there was no "grand bargain" with the House Republicans--which means that, barring some miracle, the country will hit a fiscal cliff on Jan. 1 as the Bush tax cuts expire and the first of $1.2 trillion of automatic, across-the-board spending cuts are imposed. The CBO estimates the net effect could be a 4 percent reduction in output."

---

"thrashed from myriad sources" is just a measure of noise.  The fact the dial is set to 11 is irrelevant.
 
Brad Sallows said:
Having read Krugman and Sullivan's responses and a handful of derived blog posts, I surmise that few - none of which I am aware - of the rebuttals which touch on the employment criticism will directly admit to the incontrovertible point that employment has not recovered, or even come close.  They continue to hide behind the false notion that Obama's accomplishments can only be measured relative to conditions as they existed on Obama's inauguration day.  That is either egregiously sloppy thinking or the abdication of rigour in favour of partisanship.  Every president must address issues which started before he took office.

The one I posted above did. Its initial argument was that Ferguson could have made a reasoned argument but failed to do so.

Brad Sallows said:
And Todd Akin's blunder is his, not anyone else's, to disavow or embrace.  No person with an intellectual backbone should expect any other person to personally answer for Akin.  However, the Democratic Party and its supporters are nothing if not reliable in their readiness to jettison their supposed principles in favour of partisanship.

So, they're like Republicans? Well, I'm glad that's cleared up at least. Interestingly, no one is expecting anyone to answer for Akin, but rather to rebuke him. Romney did, sort of. But the fact that there hasn't been widespread revulsion, and that some have even defended him, highlights a way that the GOP's view can be framed. And I don't see that working out well for them.
 
Funny how Akin gets savaged for a stupid rape comment while Whoppi Goldberg, a much bigger celebrity and dyed in the wool Obama/Democrat supporter sits on The View set and defends a 43 year man raping a 13 year old girl by saying sometimes rape "isn't rape-rape". 

Obama hadn't appeared before the Washington Press Press Corps for months. Months while his vacuous Foreign Policy stands idle and mute and Egypt violates the Peace Treaty with Israel by moving heavy armor into the  Sinai  and making nicey with Hamas in Gaza and supplying longer range rockets to the Terrorists,  the Iranians threatening Saudi Arabia, the revival of Japanese nationalism over  some Pacific Ocean rocks, the Syrian situation now out of control, bombs going  off in Turkey . . .  yadda, yadda, yadda.

Obama had time during all this happening to give interviews to Entertainment Tonight about his  pal George Clooney but couldn't find time to take questions from the WHPC.

Until Akin proves he has his head stuck  up his arse and all of a sudden Obama finds time to crash the daily Carney Press Briefing/Going Show and wax poetic about rape is rape.  Let's hope he called Whoppi to straighten her out.

Crass politics at the very best.  Leading a country rapidly approaching a fiscal cliff and in charge of a foreign policy that has been an abject  failure and all of a sudden he has time and encourages his media pals to get all hot and bothered over some stupid comment from a Senate candidate. A cheap political diversion that only provides cover for him to avoid dealing with the  serious issues facing America.

I am starting to think if this is the best Americans can hope for, they deserve an Obama second term.




 
Haletown said:
Leading a country rapidly approaching a fiscal cliff and in charge of a foreign policy that has been an abject  failure and all of a sudden he has time and encourages his media pals to get all hot and bothered over some stupid comment from a Senate candidate. A cheap political diversion that only provides cover for him to avoid dealing with the  serious issues facing America.

:goodpost:
 
>The one I posted above did.

If you mean O'Brien's, he made several of the errors of which I wrote.
 
Brad Sallows said:
>Including the dateshifting.

I assume you wish to be counted among the people who think Obama, as a president of the US, is not responsible for addressing issues that began before he took office.

No, I'm not. Nor do I know of anyone who is. He has to address those issues, yes, but that is not the same as attributing them to him. The most concise summation of it is this: he volunteered to become Captain of the Titanic after it hit the iceberg, and didn't have a crew all working to save the ship either, especially after the midterm elections. He had a GOP deadlocked Congress that forgot what its job is and decided merely to work to worsen partisanship. We'll see how the public views that particularly in House elections in November.
 
That is a lovely fairytale  . . .  that he "volunteers" to captain a doomed ship of state is so very, very heroic. 

Here's another one . . .

Once upon a time there was a man who wanted to be the leader of a great but troubled nation. He told the citizens that if they voted for him he would right the troubled ship of state by cutting the nation killing deficit spending in half, that he would go through the budget line by line and eliminate programs and regulations that prevented growth and limited opportunities. 

So the people believed him, or at least the him that he presented in his fairy tale autobiographies (they never wondered why a 50 year old need two autobiographies, but I digress).  And the national media, renowned for digging through garbage bins and doing whatever to vet candidates from  fly over country, went along with the fairy tale candidate because  it was the right thing to do and  citizens don't need the truth to get in the way of the who the national media wanted to be the new ship’s captain.

And so the people trusted  him and freely voted to make him the captain.  And once he sat in the captain’s chair, he decided to do things differently than what he promised, that he was so smart he could pick the winners and losers and then he found out he could spend money like a drunk sailor on shore leave.  Well not exactly, because a drunk sailor spends his own money and the new ship's captain was just borrowing and printing money to spend.

And the last page of this fairy tale is a picture.

 
>He had a GOP deadlocked Congress that forgot what its job is and decided merely to work to worsen partisanship.

Bullsh!t.  2008-2010 could have been legacy gravy for a president who undertook what needed to be done rather than what he wanted to do.  Obama chose the latter and burned his ships on the shoreline - "I won" - during which time his supporters stood firmly behind the idea that the minority Republicans would have to be the supplicants.

Consider what other presidents did: Reagan went to O'Neill, Clinton went to Gingrich, Bush went to Kennedy.

It is now Obama's turn to swallow his considerable ego and see whether he can grovel enough to atone for his arrogance, twist the arms of the equally obstructionist Democrats in Senate, and get something useful done.
 
Brad Sallows said:
>He had a GOP deadlocked Congress that forgot what its job is and decided merely to work to worsen partisanship.

Bullsh!t.  2008-2010 could have been legacy gravy for a president who undertook what needed to be done rather than what he wanted to do.  Obama chose the latter and burned his ships on the shoreline - "I won" - during which time his supporters stood firmly behind the idea that the minority Republicans would have to be the supplicants.

Careful Brad . . .  inflicting facts on the fairy tale crew might be too much for them to handle and the consequences of putting them into an infinite cognitive dissonance Do-Loop might just auger them deeper into denial, to a point where reality is but a fleeting memory.



 
An interesting article, with a useful graphic, in this month's Foreign Affairs at America The Undertaxed by Andrea Louise Campbell of MIT:

America the Undertaxed
U.S. Fiscal Policy in Perspective

By Andrea Louise Campbell

September/October 2012

The most important debates in U.S. politics today center on the cost and the role of government. Cutting taxes, limiting expenditures, and reducing debt have become the chief concerns of Republicans, whereas Democrats generally seek to preserve or even expand government spending and are willing to raise taxes to do so. The looming expiration of the George W. Bush tax cuts at the end of 2012 and the economy's weak recovery give these debates special urgency, as decisions made in the next few months are likely to shape the nation's economic, social, and political trajectory for years to come.

Behind each party's position lies not only a particular collection of interest groups but also a story about what the government's role in the U.S. economy is and what it should be. Democrats think Washington can and should play a more active part, using taxation, regulation, and spending to keep the economy growing while protecting vulnerable citizens from the ravages of volatile markets. Republicans, in contrast, think Washington already does too much; they want to scale government back to liberate markets and spur economic dynamism.

When mulling these stories, it can be useful to put U.S. fiscal policy in perspective. Compared with other developed countries, the United States has very low taxes, little redistribution of income, and an extraordinarily complex tax code. These three aspects of American exceptionalism deserve more attention than they typically receive.
More on Article link - but for subscribers only

Campbell_TaxChart_700.jpg


There IS room for Simpson-Bowles type revenue reform which can be had, without raising taxes, by simplifying the US Tax Code.

There IS, also, room, in Canada, for corporate tax cuts.
 
It would be interesting to cross reference that data with GDP per capita, to have a more pertinent frame of reference
 
I wonder if the Dems really know what they are doing by enlisting Bill CLinton to campaign? He is , after all, the guy who told the assembled press that "I'm the only person in the room who presented three balanced budgets" and makes other helpful comments to contrast his Presidency with the currrent Administration.

The other part that could be considered a miscalculation is the message which is at odds with the reality that Americans are seeing daily. High unelmployment (U3 at 11% means that more than one in ten Americans are unemployed, so the odds are very good that every voter knows at least one unemployed person in their family or circle of friends; if you go to U6 [unemployed and involuntarily underemployed] which is over 14% then the odds become far greater, and minority and youth unemployment pushing 20% and beyond [depending on the demographic breakdown you use]) means key voting blocks are being fed a message at varience to their actual experience.

Of course extra stressors like food and fuel inflation simply stick a fork in the electorate, despite the almost non stop negative campaigning against Governor Romney and Congressman Ryan people might decide the better course of action is to vote "against" the incumbents who caused so much misery rather than "for" the challengers:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/post/the-morning-plum-obamas-delicate-balancing-act-on-the-economy/2012/08/23/65d1bf26-ed0d-11e1-9ddc-340d5efb1e9c_blog.html

The Morning Plum: The Obama campaign’s theory of the presidential race
By Greg Sargent

Should President Obama be trying to persuade voters that the economy is recovering?

Some Democratic strategists think that could jar against public perceptions that things aren’t really getting better. They believe voters don’t want to hear Obama telling them things are improving. And yet, you’d think that it’s imperative that Obama rebut Mitt Romney’s charge that he’s failed to turn the economy around, that Obama has had his four years, that he hasn’t shown he has the answer to people’s problems, and that Romney does have the answer to them. How can Obama do that without doubling down on the claim that things really are getting better for people?

The Obama campaign is out with a new ad in seven swing states featuring Bill Clinton that sheds some light on this difficulty:

What we’re seeing here, I believe, is the beginning of the Obama campaign’s pivot to a more concerted effort to draw a contrast between what an Obama second term would look like and what a Romney presidency would look like. And yet, paradoxically, Clinton needs to reach into the distant past to draw this contrast.

In the spot, Clinton focuses on the future and on the past before Obama was president. The contrast it draws is between Clinton and Obama’s approach on the one hand and Bush’s and Romney’s approach on the other. As Steve Kornacki notes, the ad plays the Bush card without saying his name. The ad also draws this contrast without discussing what has happened under Obama. Clinton carefully says Obama has “a plan” and that we “need to keep going with his plan.” This stops just short of saying the recovery is underway, but it hints that we’re moving foward and promises recovery in the future, just as happened under Clinton.

In other words, the ad rebuts one key part of Romney’s argument (Obama doesn’t have the answer; I do) by reframing this as a choice between the Clinton and Bush approach. But it doesn’t directly take on the other part of Romney’s argument (you have already shown your approach has failed).

This is rooted, I believe, in a reading of the electorate by the Obama campaign that has gone underappreciated. The Obama camp makes a distinction between whether voters think Obama has failed, and whether they are merely disappointed that he hasn’t lived up to expectations, but find that understandable given the situation he inherited. This is a crucial difference that is central to understanding this race, one that turned up in my conversations with undecided voters in Colorado.

The Obama camp believes that the latter description is a more accurate reading of the electorate’s verdict. This allows them to make the case in the ad above — that Romney doesn’t have the answer. The gamble is that even if things are bad, Obama’s approach has not been discredited; voters won’t see this election as a decision to end a presidency that has failed; they will take a long view of the situation and see the election as a choice between two parties with differing views on a range of issues, between two overall visions of the future, and ultimately, between two men. Given the tattered shape of the GOP brand, voter willingness to blame Bush more than Obama for the current state of things, and Romney’s negatives, the Obama camp believes this framing will play in their favor.

Romney and his aides have different theory of the race: Voters are willing to accept Romney’s harsher assessment — that Obama’s presidency is “an extraordinary record of failure,” as Romney put it recently. Who has the more accurate reading of voter perceptions of the economy and of the Obama presidency?
 
PPCLI Guy said:
It would be interesting to cross reference that data with GDP per capita, to have a more pertinent frame of reference


Your wish is my command ...  :salute:

(Any transcription errors are my fault)
 
Time on my hands.....

Tax vs GDP vs Tax Revenue vs Takehome vs Tax/km2

The big number for me is the $/km2 number.  That is a two edged sword.  The Netherlands generates over $6,000,000 / km2 while Canada only generates $39,000 / km2. That means that the Netherlands has 150 times the revenue available to service 1 km2 that Canada does. 

Even if Canada concentrated its revenues on servicing just the arable lands (about 8% of the area and the majority of the population) it would still only have about $480,000 / km2 available to supply services.  The Dutch could still outspend us 12 to 1 in highways, rail, canals, electricity, gas, pipelines..... or distribute costs so that they would only cost the individual Dutchman somewhere between 1 and 8% of what they cost a Canadian.

That too has an impact on competitiveness.
 
While I found little correlation between total tax revenues and GDP, and despite Kirkhill's very interesting per km2 analysis, I think there is a good explanation - it is on the spreadsheet below and it shows a strong correlation between GDP and transparency (honesty) in government, as reported by Transparency International ~ and those who know me will not be surprised that I looked there for data.

I added one country and one quasi-independent territory that Prof Campbell omitted: Singapore and Hong Kong, because of their high standing on the Transparency Index and high per capita GDP.
 
Back
Top