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Please move the discussion along :
Milnet.ca Staff
Milnet.ca Staff
Tory minority in jeopardy as opposition talks coalition. Will there be another election?
- Thread starter Zell_Dietrich
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Christmas in Canada.
Brad Sallows
Army.ca Legend
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>...we must also acknowledge that the system you just described also has a Political Party system conventionally grafted on. This system includes Party discipline, Party Campaigning, and the notion of a Party Leader.
Ironically, many of the same people who argue that the coalition deserves to govern because that's how parliament is supposed to work - people vote in ridings, ridings elect MPs, MPs "elect" their own government and PM - can also be found to argue in support of proportional representation (PR) at other times, without any suggestion of constitutional tinkering. All the PR schemes I've looked at tend to further emphasize and formalize the role of parties in the system. The MPs would still select their government - perhaps even their PM (unlikely) - but the direct line of accountability between MP and riding voter would be diluted, and for some schemes, non-existent.
Ironically, many of the same people who argue that the coalition deserves to govern because that's how parliament is supposed to work - people vote in ridings, ridings elect MPs, MPs "elect" their own government and PM - can also be found to argue in support of proportional representation (PR) at other times, without any suggestion of constitutional tinkering. All the PR schemes I've looked at tend to further emphasize and formalize the role of parties in the system. The MPs would still select their government - perhaps even their PM (unlikely) - but the direct line of accountability between MP and riding voter would be diluted, and for some schemes, non-existent.
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In the Canadian context I believe, I stand to be corrected, it might have been Diefenbaker, that it was MacKenzie King that blew up the old informal party system, just as he blew up the relationship with the Governor-General, and created the modern disciplined party.
If I'm not mistaken it was MacKenzie King who, when confronted by a caucus revolt, responded by claiming that his legitimacy came not from caucus, but from the party membership at large. And that is the reason that the Libs are having so much trouble turfing Dion and electing Ignatieff.
If the system actually worked the way that Messrs Rodahn and Dietrich proclaim then the coalition would have no trouble at all in finding one of their 165 members to stand as leader of the coalition in the house. Instead they find themselves hamstrung by Party Constitutions with three equally partisan Leaders that can be widely suspected of reversing our usual formulation of "Mission, Men, Machines, Myself".
Edited to include the salient player: MacKenzie King
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Rodahn said:
Fair enough.
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Funny how we SAY we don't elect a Prime Minister yet we sure kick the leader of the party that comes in second right in the teeth.........
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ArmyVern said:
I'd bet that way....
MCG said:
Don't know about that - I've heard Iggy saying on the radio (and, apparently, he's been saying it to TV as well) saying, "a coalition if necessary, but not necessarily a coalition".
A
aesop081
Guest
milnews.ca said:
Was thinking the same thing watching a liberal on newsworld just now, saying that "they have a coalition ready in case they dont like what the PM has to say when parliament resumes"
Its funny what happens when you stop and think about the mess you got yourself into......
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CDN Aviator said:
Yeah, funny how taking a few deep breaths before engaging mouth works....
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Zell_Dietrich said:
ref the Bold,
Sorry I cant agree with that. The coalition may pay lip service to it all being about the lack of action but I firmly believe it was the threat to funding that was the main ingredient for this Soup. I am on record saying that Harper did a bad judgement thing with bringing out that addition to the legislation. But that still doesn't excuse forming a coalition when the Major players announced they would do no such thing. People keep pointing out that the majority are now being served. Yet when 3 dissimilar parties who attract people who hold differant views and run separate campains do not or are not able to form a majority. Is it right that they now try to with out notice prior to the election or at least giving the intent. And for those who like to trot out the differant countries that do this through out the world. Trouble is the have a differant electoral system and it would be comparing apples and oranges.
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And "You're Fired" ;D
Dion will bow out early to clear way for successor
Last Updated: Monday, December 8, 2008 | 1:37 PM ET CBC News
Embattled Liberal Leader Stéphane Dion announced Monday that he will step down earlier than planned to make way for a new chief to try to reunite and strengthen the party ahead of a potential election.
Dion originally planned to stay on as a caretaker leader until his successor was chosen in early May, but has faced growing pressure from his party to step down after his handling of the recent political crisis.
"I have decided to step aside as leader of the Liberal party effective as soon as my successor is duly chosen," Dion wrote in a press release. He did not specify a date.
Dion also said that he agrees with party members that a new leader must be in place before Parliament resumes.
Liberals are eager to get a new leader in place before Parliament restarts on Jan. 26, when the government could be toppled or a Liberal-NDP coalition government could rise to power.
The federal Liberals are divided on how to select Dion's successor.
There were reports over the weekend that leadership contender Michael Ignatieff was poised to take the top job during a vote at a caucus meeting on Wednesday.
However, some MPs, particularly supporters of leadership rival Bob Rae, have railed against that method of selection, instead calling for the vote to include all Liberal party members.
Ignatieff supporters argue the matter must be settled quickly and can be decided by the 77 elected Liberal MPs in a caucus vote, which would likely guarantee an Ignatieff victory.
Rae, meanwhile, suggested over the weekend that a caucus vote would be undemocratic and illegitimate because it would disenfranchise Liberals in the 231 ridings not represented in the House of Commons.
The third leadership contender, New Brunswick MP Dominic LeBlanc, is expected to drop out of the race and endorse Ignatieff. He is scheduled to hold a press conference Monday afternoon.
With files from the Canadian Press
Dion will bow out early to clear way for successor
Last Updated: Monday, December 8, 2008 | 1:37 PM ET CBC News
Embattled Liberal Leader Stéphane Dion announced Monday that he will step down earlier than planned to make way for a new chief to try to reunite and strengthen the party ahead of a potential election.
Dion originally planned to stay on as a caretaker leader until his successor was chosen in early May, but has faced growing pressure from his party to step down after his handling of the recent political crisis.
"I have decided to step aside as leader of the Liberal party effective as soon as my successor is duly chosen," Dion wrote in a press release. He did not specify a date.
Dion also said that he agrees with party members that a new leader must be in place before Parliament resumes.
Liberals are eager to get a new leader in place before Parliament restarts on Jan. 26, when the government could be toppled or a Liberal-NDP coalition government could rise to power.
The federal Liberals are divided on how to select Dion's successor.
There were reports over the weekend that leadership contender Michael Ignatieff was poised to take the top job during a vote at a caucus meeting on Wednesday.
However, some MPs, particularly supporters of leadership rival Bob Rae, have railed against that method of selection, instead calling for the vote to include all Liberal party members.
Ignatieff supporters argue the matter must be settled quickly and can be decided by the 77 elected Liberal MPs in a caucus vote, which would likely guarantee an Ignatieff victory.
Rae, meanwhile, suggested over the weekend that a caucus vote would be undemocratic and illegitimate because it would disenfranchise Liberals in the 231 ridings not represented in the House of Commons.
The third leadership contender, New Brunswick MP Dominic LeBlanc, is expected to drop out of the race and endorse Ignatieff. He is scheduled to hold a press conference Monday afternoon.
With files from the Canadian Press
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And Liberal leader Stephan Dion resigns.
http://www.canada.com/topics/news/story.html?id=1048255
http://www.canada.com/topics/news/story.html?id=1048255
Scratch_043
Sr. Member
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so now, not only is the Liberal party headless, but it would seem that the Coalition is as well....
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"The Prime Minister and his government refused to lay out a plan to stimulate the economy. The Prime Minister has lost the confidence of the House of Commons. The Prime Minister shut down Parliament to save his job while thousands of Canadians are losing theirs. The Prime Minister has poisoned the well of trust and respect that is necessary for a minority government to work in Parliament - especially in a time of crisis. Mr. Harper took an economic crisis and added a parliamentary crisis that he then tried to transform into a national unity crisis: this is no way for a Prime Minister of Canada to act"
Oh Brother, I take issue with the PM refusing to lay out a plan. They had one it was not one that involved throwing money as fast as possible. It was seeing what way the economy blew here and across the world. It was waiting to see what Obama was going to do for his rescue packages. So the opposition did what they were suppose to do. Oppose the current Gov't. But outside of saying we are going to give lots of money right now as it is needed they were very light on the specifics as well. The coalition had less of a plan and more of a action. That action being " lets throw money at it" The PM role in life cannot be equated to a"job" that one looses and goes on unemployment. How removed from reality is Dion to even think about equating it to the average Canadian. The argument could be made that he did the coalition to help him paying back his bills. As getting the "job" as he put it of being PM would definitely pay better and allow him to raise more funds. ...... but then again by going there I would be sounding like him.
I disagree the PM took this and turned it into a political crisis. He started the ball rolling yes, you betcha, but turning it into what it was took 3 parties to decide on a course of action and the Torrie's immediate reaction although less then civil accurate or even honest was an action that a wide margin of Canadians across the country agree with. So frankly Mr Dion it was 4 parties that did this and my view is most Canadians are getting sick of the school room antics by all parties, with only a soft Mea Culpa coming from one party leader in particular....
Oh Brother, I take issue with the PM refusing to lay out a plan. They had one it was not one that involved throwing money as fast as possible. It was seeing what way the economy blew here and across the world. It was waiting to see what Obama was going to do for his rescue packages. So the opposition did what they were suppose to do. Oppose the current Gov't. But outside of saying we are going to give lots of money right now as it is needed they were very light on the specifics as well. The coalition had less of a plan and more of a action. That action being " lets throw money at it" The PM role in life cannot be equated to a"job" that one looses and goes on unemployment. How removed from reality is Dion to even think about equating it to the average Canadian. The argument could be made that he did the coalition to help him paying back his bills. As getting the "job" as he put it of being PM would definitely pay better and allow him to raise more funds. ...... but then again by going there I would be sounding like him.
I disagree the PM took this and turned it into a political crisis. He started the ball rolling yes, you betcha, but turning it into what it was took 3 parties to decide on a course of action and the Torrie's immediate reaction although less then civil accurate or even honest was an action that a wide margin of Canadians across the country agree with. So frankly Mr Dion it was 4 parties that did this and my view is most Canadians are getting sick of the school room antics by all parties, with only a soft Mea Culpa coming from one party leader in particular....
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I think this whole mess is Harper's fault. This is yet another strategic partisan jab at the opposition, making it harder for them to gather funds to go against the Conservative Party of Canada, these cuts; putting it under the guise of cutting spending and whatnot (never mind the high spending and huge deficit they pulled off, what ? 1-2 budgets ago ? Thing is.. Harper, as Rex Murphy puts it, got really stupid or really arrogant. The liberals and the other coalition parties, realizing they couldn't let this go by, and seeing if they didn't act now they would never get the support they wanted, made a fuss about this now when the economy is a mess, and Harper has nobody to blame but himself for creating it. The arrogance of this man confounds me, seriously
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Yeah we know how Nfld feels about him, in no small part to your mouthpiece premier. But that's neither here nor there.
If and when the CPC get a majority, I want it retabled. I should not have to pay anything, not even $2.00 to support any government party, should I wish not to. If they can't raise enough money on their own, they obviously don't have the support base to be a player.
If and when the CPC get a majority, I want it retabled. I should not have to pay anything, not even $2.00 to support any government party, should I wish not to. If they can't raise enough money on their own, they obviously don't have the support base to be a player.
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This has nothing to do with me being a Newfoundlander, and way to stereotype. Yeah, and with party funding, dont take into account demographics and their varying ability to donate to a political party
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