Thinking of going Army, some important questions.

[incognito84]

Embarrassingly, before I start, I'm sorry to say that some of what I say might offend some people. All I'm asking for is the same respect one human being deserves from another during peace time  ;D

Anyway, I'm 22 years old and thinking of joining the Canadian Forces as a Direct Entry Officer. I live in Halifax, Nova Scotia and am completing a degree in Philosophy in April. The reason I initially considered the Canadian Forces is because of lack of opportunities elsewhere. Though I am very inclined towards my studies in university, I'll be the first to admit that a BA in Philosophy isn't exactly the road to money. At the moment I'm currently working at one of Halifax's infamous call centers and noticing, increasingly more, that most of my friends who got out of university haven't had any luck finding any work that pays more than minimum wage (except call centers), regardless of how well they did in university and how motivated they are. The jobs simply aren't there.

I have "served" before. When I was 16-17 I was in the 143 Airfeild Engineering Reserves in Lunenburg county, before that I spent six years in the Royal Canadian Air Cadets (which I was in before, during and a short time after being in the Reserves). The reason I left was ultimately because I wanted to go to university and at the time, the military wasn't very conducive to my studies. I simply wanted to focus on school and not worry about anything else. As a sidenote, I was "honourably discharged" from BMQ and told to "come back next year" because I was too young, confused and needed to get my head on straight.

I've changed a lot in four years and decided that the military might be a good thing after all. I'm looking into something slightly administrative, what would you recommend given my education? I'll also note that I'm only interested in going in as an officer and not an NCM.

Now comes the hard part (warning!) There are several stereotypes floating around about the military, beyond the typical "jar head" reputation it has had for pretty much the whole 20th century. With the war in Iraq (which I don't support), President Bush (whom I really don't support) and the whole stigmatization of a large section of the world, specifically the Muslim community, I became increasingly distasteful of the whole idea (when I first started university I had service in mind for afterwards, after I became involved in politics--not so much).

Now I know the CF is vastly different from... um, the Marine Corps. Heh. I think the Canadian Forces is more centered on Peacekeeping, relief distribution in third world nations and at home, and generally, I think the CF's primary goal is to make the world a better place... not to control it. This is a realization I've come to lately before I began considering the CF.

My main concern in all of this is my lifestyle. I'm very socially left-wing, I'm an atheist (which might be a problem), I'm a vegetarian and I analyze the crap out of everything and enjoy taking a stand against things I'm uncomfortable with. Not to say that I mean to make enemies (I'm a nice guy and I'm very tolerant), but I'm not going to stand around while something I percieve as bad happens and not pipe up about it. I know what you're thinking... a flakey liberal wants to join the Army? HEH! Well, physically, there is no problem. I'm in great shape, I take really good care of myself, and the military can pretty much dish out anything at me before I mentally break (I DO work in a call center dealing with angry Americans for a day job).

All that being said, I'm not so much concerned about "making it" through training because I'll be fine without a doubt. What I am concerned about is finding a place, socially, within the Canadian Forces where I'm free to have my own beliefs (acknowledging that I WILL respect the beliefs of others, too). Do you think the CF is a good place for someone like me? Or do you think that I'm in the wrong ideological place for it? Do you think I'll find a good, supportive community in the CF of people who will tolerate my beliefs, or will I get ridiculed non-stop for being a vegetarian/lefty/whatever?

I'm hoping the CF is an ideology free zone, but I've been told it isn't before by some friends who currently serve (one in Afghanistan), so I thought I'd pop all these questions in a massively public and diverse domain.

That being said, I'm not looking for a fight... I'm just curious.

Peace out. 

 

[Michael OLeary]

Before anyone here starts to analyse your motives or beliefs, I would suggest you spend a few months critically examining the content and tone of many of the threads here at army.ca.  Explore the topics of interest to you and you will come to some conclusions about 'average' opinions and personal styles among the soldiers, sailors and airment (officers and non-commissioned members), at least those who frequent these forums.  Once you have done that, you should have a better idea if your personal beliefs won't conflict with military service, and you'll be better prepared to ask focussed questions about the CF's ideological environment.

 

[x-zipperhead]

The CF is made up of many different types of people with many different beliefs, be them political, social, dietary, whatever.  Don't be fooled by stereotypes.

The reason I initially considered the Canadian Forces is because of lack of opportunities elsewhere.

If I were you, this is what I would spend some time reflecting on.

 

[tree hugger]

I think the Canadian Forces is more centered on Peacekeeping, relief distribution in third world nations and at home. My main concern in all of this is my lifestyle.

Put down your Immanual Kant autobiography and pick up a newspaper, you may find some news stories on Afganastan.



(Edited by Moderator to remove unnecessary comment offering ridicule of the original poster's personal choices. If this comment is replaced a warning will be issued.)

 

[Franko]

Do your homework before you make the plunge. It's not for everyone, especially if it's the "only job available that pays more than min wage".

You're not going to get in direct entry, that I'm pretty sure of. Not completed BMQ 4 years ago....you're going to go through it all over again.

It seems that in your post you've made a few stereotypes of the CF as well.

Now comes the hard part (warning!) There are several stereotypes floating around about the military, beyond the typical "jar head" reputation it has had for pretty much the whole 20th century. With the war in Iraq (which I don't support), President Bush (whom I really don't support) and the whole stigmatization of a large section of the world, specifically the Muslim community, I became increasingly distasteful of the whole idea (when I first started university I had service in mind for afterwards, after I became involved in politics--not so much).

Now I know the CF is vastly different from... um, the Marine Corps. Heh. I think the Canadian Forces is more centered on Peacekeeping, relief distribution in third world nations and at home, and generally, I think the CF's primary goal is to make the world a better place... not to control it. This is a realization I've come to lately before I began considering the CF.

Misplaced stereotypes and you're getting mixed up with the US's debacle. We're in Afghanistan to take over the oil fields don't you know?     

Seems as though you got sucked in by the Heritage minutes commercials over the years. We train for war and we're currently engaged. Peacekeeping is a task, nothing more.

My main concern in all of this is my lifestyle. I'm very socially left-wing, I'm an atheist (which might be a problem), I'm a vegetarian and I analyze the crap out of everything and enjoy taking a stand against things I'm uncomfortable with. Not to say that I mean to make enemies (I'm a nice guy and I'm very tolerant), but I'm not going to stand around while something I percieve as bad happens and not pipe up about it. I know what you're thinking... a flakey liberal wants to join the Army? HEH! Well, physically, there is no problem. I'm in great shape, I take really good care of myself, and the military can pretty much dish out anything at me before I mentally break (I DO work in a call center dealing with angry Americans for a day job).

Sounds like you aren't willing to change at all and are just out to make the world revolve around you. The poli / religion / dietary needs don't mean a thing at the end of the day.

Your deeds do.

What I am concerned about is finding a place, socially, within the Canadian Forces where I'm free to have my own beliefs (acknowledging that I WILL respect the beliefs of others, too). Do you think the CF is a good place for someone like me? Or do you think that I'm in the wrong ideological place for it? Do you think I'll find a good, supportive community in the CF of people who will tolerate my beliefs, or will I get ridiculed non-stop for being a vegetarian/lefty/whatever?

Your beliefs are your to keep. When you press them onto others you will make your own bed and will be lying in it. Keep them to yourself and discuss it as a normal person would and I can't see any problems at all.

Force them onto others and the results could be less than "optimal". This would be true either in the Forces or in the civvie world would it not?

Want my opinion? Obviously you do or you wouldn't have asked.....

Don't join.

If you wanted to, you'd be in St Jean.

My 0.02 Duram worth.

Regards

 

[Shamrock]

I'll also note that I'm only interested in going in as an officer and not an NCM.

Why?  

I'm an atheist (which might be a problem)

Why would this be a problem?  Planning on refusing to attend any funerals?

I'm a vegetarian

Lots of vegetarians in the CF, even a few vegans.  My wife and I typically purchase organic foods, and are in a location where we're able to purchase locally grown food.  We're short-haired hippies.

What I am concerned about is finding a place, socially, within the Canadian Forces where I'm free to have my own beliefs.

Okay, what the hell is this supposed to mean?  Make sure you use little words.

I'm hoping the CF is an ideology free zone.

Again, what the hell are you talking about?  

Please, explain.  I realize I sometimes misunderestimate a person's intent over the Internet, so I'll keep in check my indignation.

 

[incognito84]

You're not going to get in direct entry, that I'm pretty sure of. Not completed BMQ 4 years ago....you're going to go through it all over again.

Why the heck not? How long would I have to wait, or am I permanently screwed? I have changed quite a bit since... 17 (fresh out of High School). I htink there might be some confusion as to my understanding of Direct Entry. I thought Direct Entry was basically using your University degree to go in as an officer after officer training, etc. Are you saying that I can't be an officer because I left BMQ (NCM) when I was 17?

...and as for everything else, what I meant in all of it was that my perception of the Army has changed and I see it as more exciting than a "job option".

 

[Shamrock]

I think there was a miscommunication about direct entry.

You're pursuing Direct Entry Officer, no?  That is available to persons who already have in their possession a degree. 

 

[incognito84]

I think there was a miscommunication about direct entry.

You're pursuing Direct Entry Officer, no?  That is available to persons who already have in their possession a degree. 

Yeah that's what I'm pursuing, when I finish my degree in April.

 

[Shamrock]

In terms of trades, most officer positions are administrative.  Some trades require specific educations, so best look into that before you get your heart set on something.

What exactly are you looking to do?  No field time?  No combat arms time?

 

[incognito84]

In terms of trades, most officer positions are administrative.  Some trades require specific educations, so best look into that before you get your heart set on something.

What exactly are you looking to do?  No field time?  No combat arms time?

Field time and combat arms time are okay, I just don't want the job to revolve around the feild. I don't mind being in the feild.

Hmm. I guess I should look around. Does anyone know of any Army trades off the top of their head that would take a philosophy degree? Signals sounds awesome, but I think they want engineering degrees.

 

[tree hugger]

I'd do some searches around the site.  Look at the FAQ's.

 

[Shamrock]

These guys.

Now, care to answer any of the questions posed to you?

 

[incognito84]

These guys.

Now, care to answer any of the questions posed to you?

I will before the night is out, I have to run a few errands then I'll sit down and explain myself 

 

[Michael OLeary]

Ok folks, incognito has plenty of food for thought.  Let's give him time to figure out what his next line of inquiry should be.  There's no need to add any further for now because it will only become redundant and confusing for him.

 

[incognito84]

1. Why? 
2. Why would this be a problem?  Planning on refusing to attend any funerals?
3. Lots of vegetarians in the CF, even a few vegans.  My wife and I typically purchase organic foods, and are in a location where we're able to  purchase locally grown food.  We're short-haired hippies.
4. Okay, what the hell is this supposed to mean?  Make sure you use little words.
5. Again, what the hell are you talking about? 

1. Because officers generally get paid more, it actually requires me to have a degree (thus I'll be getting something out of it) and because I'm going to have massive student debt to pay off.

2. It was a problem my first time around, actually. Not so much of an open problem, but more of a subtle thing between me and people I was involved with. I really want to avoid stereotyping here, its just that I'm entering a new "culture" and with any new "culture", militaristic or otherwise, these things do come up. I was mainly just probing to get a better idea without trying to arm too many assumptions before they're proven/disproven.

3. I was mainly concerned about it, not so much because of the "macho" stereotype (which I've been trying to avoid), but because I was wondering if vegetarian alternatives are readily available in all situations. Yes, I'll eat meat if I absolutely have to (say I'm stranded in the feild for several days) but I'd rather not. I'd ask this with ANY job where food was provided, not just the military. When I did BMQ my Master Corporal specifically instructed us not to be on vegetarian diets, whether there were vegetarians in my flight is unknown to me. I have been harrassed quite a bit about this choice before, so forgive me if I'm being over cautious.

4 & 5. I know that within any new culture there are certain core beliefs that lie at the center of that culture. I was just wondering if any of the ones I've presented here conflict with these beliefs, and I have reasons as to why I'm concerned about it. I had an openly gay friend who recieved tonnes harrassment in the CIC (Cadet Instructors Cadre) for her decision to out herself (called "dyke" repeatedly among other things). I know that there are many policies forbididng this kind of behaviour, but policies are one thing and the things people get away with are something else altogether. I know this from the 10+ jobs I've had.

 

[Shamrock]

Don't rule out NCM simply because you have a degree and want more pay.  Look at all the trades and determine what will suit you and your interests most, then determine if the pay scale and advancement is appropriate.  Also factor in the cost of living at your potential first posting -- it may be significantly lower than your current location.  There are plenty of NCM's who enter with a degree  or attain one while serving.  How you apply your philosophy degree is up to you; don't expect to give too many lectures on Nicomachean Ethics, but don't be surprised if Joe Private from BFN knows more than you do about sentential calculus.  Consider also academic upgrading in your career search.

The military has recently become much more accommodating to persons of alternative diets.  Used to be that vegetarian meals were only available at home, which then became only available out of a kitchen; now I believe there are IMP's available that are strictly vegetarian.  I know there are kosher IMP's.  You'll just have to let your CoC know and they'll likely try to get you what's best for you.

I was in Wainwright a few years ago when an all reg infantry PLQ was being run.  On the course was an openly gay individual who made a flip comment to the swing NCO about the Canex's lack of gay porn.  The Sgt went into the Canex and raised a bloody stink on this individual's behalf.

Your best bet would be to approach this with an open mind.  You've expressed quite a few prejudicial notions that will be of detriment to you.  I'm not going to say we're all saints (no matter how close some of us are), but we're certainly not a bunch of mouth breathing misogynists awaiting delivery from someone with a humanities degree.  If your practices and beliefs are contrary to the group's norm, expect conflict; this isn't just the military, this is just plain life.  How you deal with that conflict, and how that solution affects your future, is entirely up to you.