The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

[ytz]

You know what's even more important than HAS everywhere? Learning to operate dispersed like the Scandinavians do and like the USAF is relearning with ACE.

Dispersion reduces concentration risks and the hardening investments needed.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Dispersion is certainly one force protection technique.

For the record, I am not advocating that every single fighter in Canada have a HAS. I did not think that all the QRAs being HAS was too high a bar, however.

I am also all for hardening fuel, ammo storage, water treatment and having electrical power redundancy…

 

[KevinB]

There's a lot of threats to defend against. Protecting military assets are one among many concerns. All kinds of critical infrastructure and personnel have to be protected. Not just the aircraft on the ramp. I notice how none of you guys are talking about say the water supply, POL or power to the bases. Or protecting personnel and their families. We could spend entire budgets just on force protection. Doesn't deliver extra capability. Investment on force protection has to be reasonably balanced.

I take water supply, power, POL, Ammo with equal seriousness to equipment.

Personnel are an issue that can’t really be addressed if you have off base living - and reasonable base access. But you can ensure that the facilities aren’t a danger to ones personnel and families.

Most bases ASP’s (ammunition supply points) are hardened and guarded down here. Most also have internal water and power.

When it comes to building new structures, hardened ones are more expensive- but generally will last a lot lot lot longer than non hardened ones. To me it isn’t just a security issue, it’s also a long term economical choice.

 

[ytz]

Dispersion is certainly one force protection technique.

For the record, I am not advocating that every single fighter in Canada have a HAS. I did not think that all the QRAs being HAS was too high a bar, however.

I am also all for hardening fuel, ammo storage, water treatment and having electrical power redundancy…

As part of NGFC, there's infrastructure money in there for QRA modernization. But hardened against what is the question? The UK has to secure aircraft against an incoming ballistic or cruise missile because their distances don't allow for warning times. Protecting against drones dropping grenades doesn't require feet of reinforced concrete on top of your aircraft though.

 

[Kirkhill]

There's a lot of threats to defend against. Protecting military assets are one among many concerns. All kinds of critical infrastructure and personnel have to be protected. Not just the aircraft on the ramp. I notice how none of you guys are talking about say the water supply, POL or power to the bases. Or protecting personnel and their families. We could spend entire budgets just on force protection. Doesn't deliver extra capability. Investment on force protection has to be reasonably balanced.

National Defence is a capability.
Force Protection is also a capability.
Offensive capabilities are something else.

Most Canadian taxpayers might be forgiven for believing that they were paying the Department of National Defence for National Defence.

 

[ytz]

National Defence is a capability.
Force Protection is also a capability.
Offensive capabilities are something else.

Most Canadian taxpayers might be forgiven for believing that they were paying the Department of National Defence for National Defence.

Not sure what your point is. I don't think the average person would expect us to spending $10B on HAS and buy half the number of jets just because. Balancing priorities, like force generation and force protection, is also part of sound management of National Defence.

 

[Kirkhill]

Not sure what your point is. I don't think the average person would expect us to spending $10B on HAS and buy half the number of jets just because. Balancing priorities, like force generation and force protection, is also part of sound management of National Defence.

My point is that Canadians would expect to have uninterrupted power, potable water, working waste treatment, serviceable airports, ports, and railway stations, skies free from obstructions and airwaves that provide timely communication.

My perception is that all of those assets are all at risk depending on the inclinations of Canada's enemies. The threat comes from Canadians, foreigners, little green men, criminals and commercial interests as well as overt military threats.

Mind, this is Canada, so all we have to do is outlaw these beasties and the threat goes away.

 

[markppcli]

Prepare tinfoil hat…maybe it wouldn’t be the first time?

Site: PIN-3 | The DEWLine

lswilson.dewlineadventures.com

And hardened hangers would protect against this unlikely arson how?

 

[markppcli]

Not sure what your point is. I don't think the average person would expect us to spending $10B on HAS and buy half the number of jets just because. Balancing priorities, like force generation and force protection, is also part of sound management of National Defence.

He wants the CAF to primarily guard infrastructure in Canada in case the first strike of Russia or China is destroying the Kelowna international air port.

 

[Good2Golf]

I don't think the average person would expect us to spending $10B on HAS and buy half the number of jets just because.

That’s a pretty nonsensical ‘strawperson’ argument for build HAS at least at the FOB QRA hangars.

And hardened hangers would protect against this unlikely arson how?

As noted above to ytz, at least RUSOF would need heavier armt than an FPV drone with a 3kg warhead if they infiltrated an F-35 FOB like Rankin Inlet.

 

[KevinB]

Yep. CL and Bag are also more remote than most American fighter bases. Notice how nobody here is talking about Nellis here, like a 20 min Uber from the strip. I was here a few years ago. I don't remember HAS on the Weapons School flight lines.

Nellis has its own Force Protection, as well as NTR’s and the other side of the mountain have vastly different FP postures and capabilities. While it’s relatively “open” it really isn’t.

And think of the types and numbers of aircraft that base sees. Also, no talk of all the ANG bases that are basically hangars at some regional airport.

Those ANG Wings and Squadrons do have folks near them who have a lot more guns than the RCAF has.

Also, interesting to me how people only think of protecting fighters and now say a C-17 that costs more and is impossible to replace.

Well I’d say that it’s 6 of 1, Half Dozen of another for F-22 to C-17, neither is replaceable at this point.

But it would be nice if they are all had hardened storage and maintenance.

I mean Hurricanes and Tornadoes have taken a bigger bite out of aviation assets down here in the past three decades than enemy action.

 

[markppcli]

That’s a pretty nonsensical ‘strawperson’ argument for build HAS at least at the FOB QRA hangars.



As noted above to ytz, at least RUSOF would need heavier armt than an FPV drone with a 3kg warhead if they infiltrated an F-35 FOB like Rankin Inlet.
View attachment 87340

Right so see above about my comments on why an FPV drone strike is probably silliest threat to use as it assumes Russia has infiltrated agents in, got them to the arctic, gotten them to acquire drones, then acquire the exposives, assemble these drones in the AO - and after all of that extremely complex operation has been successful they’ll be foiled by a hanger door ?

The way we defend against saboteurs is the entire national security system we have, from CSIS and RCMP INSET down to our in house assets. All of that will ping security levels and we can surge force protection. Those threats are probably not going to be deterred by a hardened hanger that gets opened up from time to time.

 

[Good2Golf]

RUSOF would obviously wait until the hangar doors were opened to launch a CF-35 to intercept a Tu-95 or Tu-160 deliberately bouncing the CADIZ, and launch maybe a 5kg UCAV at them from their manned UUV, like a follow on to their 2000 ‘not an attack.’

 

[Kirkhill]

He wants the CAF to primarily guard infrastructure in Canada in case the first strike of Russia or China is destroying the Kelowna international air port.

https://macleans.ca/society/technology/cyberattacks-canada/

Government of Canada releases statement on malicious cyber activity - Canada.ca

Today, the Honourable Dominic LeBlanc, Minister of Public Safety, Democratic Institutions and Intergovernmental Affairs, the Honourable Mélanie Joly, Minister of Foreign Affairs, and the Honourable Bill Blair, Minister of National Defence, issued the following statement:

www.canada.ca

Hackers claim they went after Canada’s gas infrastructure. Can renewables withstand the same cyberattacks?

News of pro-Russia hackers allegedly gaining access to Canada’s gas infrastructure brought cybersecurity concerns to the fore last month. To protect our power grid, industry insiders say Canada needs to step up regulations safeguarding energy systems that are vulnerable to attack.

www.nationalobserver.com

Pro-Russian hackers ramp up attacks on Canadian infrastructure | Insights | MLT Aikins

Canada’s support for Ukraine has triggered an increase in cyberattacks against critical infrastructure, according to a statement from the Communications Security Establishment (CSE). On April 13, the CSE warned of...

www.mltaikins.com

Protecting Our Critical Infrastructure During Uncertain Times | Homeland Security

Commemorating Critical Infrastructure Security and Resilience Month with updates on related S&T research and development efforts and innovative technology solutions.

www.dhs.gov

Protecting Critical Infrastructure Against Drones

Dawn Zoldi (Colonel, USAF Ret.) outlines how critical infrstructure in the USA should be protected from uncrewed aircraft systems (UAS).

sentrycs.com

Countering the Growing Threat of Drone Attacks on Energy Infrastructure - New Lines Institute

The proliferation and growing sophistication of UAVs puts the ability to wreak havoc within anyone’s reach, making addressing security vulnerabilities in energy systems imperative.

newlinesinstitute.org

 

[markppcli]

RUSOF would obviously wait until the hangar doors were opened to launch a CF-35 to intercept a Tu-95 or Tu-160 deliberately bouncing the CADIZ, and launch maybe a 5kg UCAV at them from their manned UUV, like a follow on to their 2000 ‘not an attack.’

Your suggesting that will be their declaration of war ? Luring out an F35 to hit it with an FPV? Or do you think that we would adjust our force protection measures in a large scale conflict ?


@Kirkhill I will not engage with you, you know why.

 

[Kirkhill]

RUSOF would obviously wait until the hangar doors were opened to launch a CF-35 to intercept a Tu-95 or Tu-160 deliberately bouncing the CADIZ, and launch maybe a 5kg UCAV at them from their manned UUV, like a follow on to their 2000 ‘not an attack.’

PS G2G

Don't forget that any money spent on hardening infrastructure will obviously detract from the critical requirement of buying another squadron of Leopards for deployment to Latvia or Taiwan.

 

[Kirkhill]

Your suggesting that will be their declaration of war ? Luring out an F35 to hit it with an FPV? Or do you think that we would adjust our force protection measures in a large scale conflict ?


@Kirkhill I will not engage with you, you know why.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Nellis has its own Force Protection, as well as NTR’s and the other side of the mountain have vastly different FP postures and capabilities. While it’s relatively “open” it really isn’t.

Those ANG Wings and Squadrons do have folks near them who have a lot more guns than the RCAF has.

Well I’d say that it’s 6 of 1, Half Dozen of another for F-22 to C-17, neither is replaceable at this point.

But it would be nice if they are all had hardened storage and maintenance.

I mean Hurricanes and Tornadoes have taken a bigger bite out of aviation assets down here in the past three decades than enemy action.

Small arms wont stop 2,000 lb penetrators bombs, which is what a HAS is really meant to protect against. I’m a lot more concerned about cyber attacks to the F-35’s IM infrastructure than a physical attack against our future F-35s.

 

[markppcli]

Small arms wont stop 2,000 lb penetrators bombs, which is what a HAS is really meant to protect against. I’m a lot more concerned about cyber attacks to the F-35’s IM infrastructure than a physical attack against our future F-35s.

Frankly I don’t see a massive concern with a direct attack on Canada, and if we follow that line of reasoning we should probably encase Halifax harbour in concrete to protect our ships.

 

[quadrapiper]

Frankly I don’t see a massive concern with a direct attack on Canada, and if we follow that line of reasoning we should probably encase Halifax harbour in concrete to protect our ships.

Revitalizing boom systems from back in the day (especially the bits that take time, like detailed planning and engineering studies, and the bits that are seasonal and tidal, like fitting attachment points) might be worth looking at.