Mr. Bob F. I can understand your return to smoking afterwards. Three times I've broken through ice and but for getting one hand on the edge, would have been a goner for sure. Not a nice way to go. But why the combat swim practice for this exercise? It doesn't make much sense - i used to live in that area and while it's been some thirty odd years, that reserve isn't exactly on the water, and the St. Lawrence can have a powerful current, and the banks aren't exactly gentle... On the other hand I still can't understand why cf18's were used either. By the way, The upper hatches that allowed you out - do the Coyotes and LAV3s have these? Maybe that is why swimming a vehicle is no longer a design feature. What about deep wading - is there possibilities for this on these err.... newer vehicles?
The Oka Crisis
- Thread starter Canuck725
- Start date
Hello Jack.
Each section was to be accompanied by a RCMP officer in the event that we would need to make arrests (properly in the public eye?) on the reserve. An effort was made to familiarize them with our vehicles, swimming and all. An other reason may have been to confuse our opponents,wrt our most likely avenue of approach (element of surprise). As I was just a Pte. I can only speculate about the strategy involved.
As far as the Coyotes and LAVIII are concerned, someone else will have to help out here. They were not yet in service by the time I left.
PS.... ice fishing and playing hockey are not worth risking your life over...well not ice fishing anyway. ;D
Each section was to be accompanied by a RCMP officer in the event that we would need to make arrests (properly in the public eye?) on the reserve. An effort was made to familiarize them with our vehicles, swimming and all. An other reason may have been to confuse our opponents,wrt our most likely avenue of approach (element of surprise). As I was just a Pte. I can only speculate about the strategy involved.
As far as the Coyotes and LAVIII are concerned, someone else will have to help out here. They were not yet in service by the time I left.
PS.... ice fishing and playing hockey are not worth risking your life over...well not ice fishing anyway. ;D
actually the first time I had a good dunking was as a kid on a toboggan and that got me petrified of deep water-which made life hell for me in Cornwallis - although I did and passed the swim test (forward roll-entry and drown - the instructor left the 'proof' after that statement...) and became of all things, a sapper - tootling about in those 1950 era assault boats and such throughout B.C. - always a three man job - one to try to get the bloody motor started again, one to try to re-inflate the air bladders, and one to bail and row. Later it was as a Geologist's assistant in Northern Manitoba and Saskatchewan...wearing and using army surplus equipment... I had one Sargeant-major with a sardonic sense of humour - who had me on the troop swim team and also put me in for a diver's course...My problem as I explained to him, was not the submerging part, it was the coming up for air thing. But back onto topic.. it seemed - note - I said seemed - that that whole operation was a bit of a panic at the higher levels and it was more the common sense of the lower ranks that made the thing a success. Compared to the October Crisis, it, at the time and in hindsight, seemed to be a bit overblown - certainly so compared to what was to come in Bosnia - Mind you I'm making these statements as an observer far away from the scene.
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JackD said:
Just a quick point- there were also CF-5's performing high photo-recon.
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As my uncle was working as an ops-O at MFCHQ, all I know is that security was tight on CFB Montreal and CFCHQ St-Hubert
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Canadian Forces Command Head Qaurtersgeo said:
Hi! Still, the interesting thing about this Oka "crisis" was that it got greater media attention - national and international - and generation of more "urban myths" about heavier weapons displayed (machine guns visible at observation posts, armoured vehicles) then during the FLQ crisis of the 60's and the October Crisis of the 70's - which you must admit were of far greater importance. I would love to know the politics behind the scene in deploying the armed forces and what other options were being considered before it blew over - perhaps HMCS Iroquois sailing up the Ste Lawrence to the St Catherine Locks?
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sorry, my bad...I just read the little plaque that was besides the main door (I took it with the permision of it's new owner, Ville de Longueil) and I misspeled. PLease forgive me...geo said:
Hello all. I realize that some of you took part in Op SALON and or Op Feather renamed Op AKWESASNE in the middle for obvious reasons. As mentioned earlier there are some serious myths surrounding these events. There were problems long before 1989 and Military participation had been an option for quite awhile. Also in 1993, there was an organized raid that was planned with joint RCMP, Military and JTF2 elements that was scheduled to go into Akwesasne and clean uip the smuggling of drugs, weapons, immigrants, cigarettes and booze. For obvious reasons this was called off. It was called Op CAMPUS/SCORPION SAXON. I have been investigating all of these operations for the better part of 1.5 years. There will be a book coming out soon, look for it!! I think more of the "truth" as it were will be told. I will not say much more, other than that. Oh, for those of you are still doubt the firepower possessed by the Mohawk Warriors? Don't...they had it all, and much more that was never actually released by the CF during or was found out after the fact. My regards. 
Haggis
Army.ca Veteran
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Bob F. said:
I was on shore watching and the bunch of us altogether said "holy sh*t!" as she went down. Then the shoreline was just pandemonium. Three of my troops kept sentry on it until it could be recovered the next day. Kinda boring watching the top 6 inches of the radio whips all night...
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Very interesting thread. I have a good friend that was inside the perimeter at Oka and have heard some very good stories.
A movie was being made this summer about the crisis, as well there is someone at Kingston writing a thesis on the crisis that is doing some valuable research (Sputnik?). Should make for a good book now that more information is available. Bad part is that most of the warriors involved have died or committed suicide since 1990.
A movie was being made this summer about the crisis, as well there is someone at Kingston writing a thesis on the crisis that is doing some valuable research (Sputnik?). Should make for a good book now that more information is available. Bad part is that most of the warriors involved have died or committed suicide since 1990.
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I have been investigating all of these operations for the better part of 1.5 years. There will be a book coming out soon, look for it!! I think more of the "truth" as it were will be told.
Only a year and a half of research, give me a break, unless of course you have a large research staff. I also assume you have someone current in the native languages as native history is primarily oral needed for the background of your "book" or are you just secondary sourcing and gossip mongering. The only problem with the truth is there are so many perspectives of it. I will look for your book right next to the National Enquire and other factual based readings next to the check out stand.
Only a year and a half of research, give me a break, unless of course you have a large research staff. I also assume you have someone current in the native languages as native history is primarily oral needed for the background of your "book" or are you just secondary sourcing and gossip mongering. The only problem with the truth is there are so many perspectives of it. I will look for your book right next to the National Enquire and other factual based readings next to the check out stand.
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Here's a news flash for ya about oka;
Does anyone remember that pretty boy private who stood off with "Lasagna", the tough native??
I recall that he later got out and made films, namely "Quebec Sexy Girls" in which he had a very different type of stand off with a pretty native actress....
......any truth to this??
Does anyone remember that pretty boy private who stood off with "Lasagna", the tough native??
I recall that he later got out and made films, namely "Quebec Sexy Girls" in which he had a very different type of stand off with a pretty native actress....
......any truth to this??
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geo said:one of the spokesmen for the CF at that time would have been Capt St Louis - a CFRd RSM
Probably one of the most memorable pics was of the R22R Cpl (Cloutier?) that "lasagna" tried to intimidate will screams, yells and wild agitation. The fella had worked on the R22R ceremonial guard and had mastered the trick of "zoning out".... which resulted in Lasagna getting even more irritated
The Cpl was fastracked and given his MCpls. Some say that the public attention got to him - he was busted out of the army on Drug charges - did a couple of Porno flicks and pretty much faded away into the woodwork.
Already answered...in this thread.
George Wallace
Army.ca Dinosaur
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Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.
Oka Crisis legacy questioned
08/07/2010 11:49:19 PM
CTV.ca News Staff
LINK
Twenty years after the Oka Crisis there are differing views over whether the relationship between the government and First Nations has improved.
Sunday marks two decades since the start of the 78-day-long standoff between Mohawks in the community of Kanesatake and police and the military.
The conflict in the community west of Montreal was sparked by plans to expand a golf course in the neighbouring community of Oka on land the Mohawk claimed was a traditional burial ground. A provincial police officer, Cpl. Marcel Lemay, was killed in gunfire during the early days of the crisis.
An agreement signed in Quebec City on Tuesday is an example of how relations have improved since 1990, said Federal Indian Affairs Minister Chuck Strahl. The agreement between the federal and provincial governments and the Assembly of First Nations in Quebec allows First Nations communities more power over the distribution of social assistance money, he said.
Although there are still more than 3,000 aboriginal land claims outstanding - including the one launched by the Mohawk of Kanesatake - Strahl said they are being dealt with in a better way.
In 2007, Prime Minister Stephen Harper announced a revamp of the federal land-claims process. The changes included $250 million a year for 10 years to help manage the backlog of claims, and the creation of an independent tribunal to make final decisions on disputes.
Twenty years ago, Strahl said, there was confrontation, not negotiation. "The federal government has been much quicker to recognize that claims exist," said Strahl. "[It] used to be [that] we were just in complete denial. We would just say 'No, we're not going to negotiate, we're not talking, there's nothing to talk about.'"
But the Quebec chief of the Assembly of First Nations, Ghislain Picard, said he has his doubts. Picard points to the number of outstanding land claims and to the Royal Commission Report on Aboriginal Peoples, which was set up after the Oka Crisis.
In 1996, the commission made more than 400 recommendations, including a 20-year agenda to "revitalize" First Nations communities and end the "staggering" human and financial cost of supporting them.
'What has changed?'
"What has changed since Oka?" asked Picard. "How many of those recommendations have been implemented?"
Tensions have recently flared again in Kanesatake over a developer's plan to build three homes on a site across the street from the pine forest where the standoff began. Taxes on the land are paid to the municipality of Oka. But members of the Mohawk community argue that the land belongs to them, as part of an ongoing claim.
Residents of Kanesatake have also sought a moratorium on a plan to extract and mill niobium in the region until the claim is resolved. Niobium is used in superconductors and in alloys such as high-strength steel for pipelines and bone implants.
The current grand chief of the Kanesatake Mohawk, Sohenrise Paul Nicholas, said there has been progress on the land claim, but at a snail's pace. "We are the point now where we are going to be starting discussion," said Nicholas.
That little has changed in two decades comes as no surprise to two key players in the Oka Crisis.
'We never learn from history'
"We never learn from history, do we?" John Ciaccia said with a sigh. The former Quebec native affairs minister was at the centre of the storm two decades ago. He was at odds with his own government and police, while scrambling to broker a deal and prevent further bloodshed.
In the months leading up to the crisis, Ciaccia pushed Ottawa to OK an agreement that would have let the disputed territory be acquired by the federal government and given over to the Kanesatake Mohawks.
Ciaccia's voice still chokes with anger and frustration as he recalls the events of that long summer.
Under police protection for much of the crisis, he was also branded a traitor by some of his then-colleagues. Ten years ago, he went public with his view that the blame for the crisis should be placed squarely on the governments of the time - the Quebec Liberal administration of Robert Bourassa and the federal Conservative government under Brian Mulroney.
"It was wrong to put the natives in that position," the retired politician maintains. "The whole crisis could have been avoided with common sense and respect for the native community."
Ottawa blamed
Even at the height of the crisis, he said, Ottawa refused to budge while he struggled to find common ground between the Mohawk leaders and the government. Ottawa dragged its heels, and continues to do so today, Ciaccia said.
It's an opinion echoed by Ellen Gabriel. In 1990, the then 31-year-old firebrand acted as chief Mohawk negotiator, working alongside Ciaccia to bring an end to the stalemate.
Now president of a native women's association, she says Oka's only legacy is a greater awareness of native issues across Canada. "If anything it was a waking up," she said, adding that people realized "in a simplified, clichéd way, there are still ongoing Indian wars."
The initial transfer of the Oka land took place in 1717, when France gave it over to a missionary group. "It's a 290-year-old fight," said Gabriel. "So history's not changing. It's business as usual as far as the government is concerned."
Kanesatake residents planned an evening of songs and poetry on Saturday and a march Sunday from Oka to the site of the protest camp where the crisis began. The marchers were to be joined by some Oka villagers and local farmers who share the opposition to the niobium mine.
All Quebecers have also been invited to the annual Powwow in the Mohawk community of Kahnawake, south of Montreal. Kahnawake's grand chief, Mike Delisle, and local Bloc Québécois MP Carole Freeman billed the event, running through the weekend, as an opportunity to heal scars that still remain following the crisis.
With files from The Canadian Press
Oka Crisis legacy questioned
08/07/2010 11:49:19 PM
CTV.ca News Staff
LINK
Twenty years after the Oka Crisis there are differing views over whether the relationship between the government and First Nations has improved.
Sunday marks two decades since the start of the 78-day-long standoff between Mohawks in the community of Kanesatake and police and the military.
The conflict in the community west of Montreal was sparked by plans to expand a golf course in the neighbouring community of Oka on land the Mohawk claimed was a traditional burial ground. A provincial police officer, Cpl. Marcel Lemay, was killed in gunfire during the early days of the crisis.
An agreement signed in Quebec City on Tuesday is an example of how relations have improved since 1990, said Federal Indian Affairs Minister Chuck Strahl. The agreement between the federal and provincial governments and the Assembly of First Nations in Quebec allows First Nations communities more power over the distribution of social assistance money, he said.
Although there are still more than 3,000 aboriginal land claims outstanding - including the one launched by the Mohawk of Kanesatake - Strahl said they are being dealt with in a better way.
In 2007, Prime Minister Stephen Harper announced a revamp of the federal land-claims process. The changes included $250 million a year for 10 years to help manage the backlog of claims, and the creation of an independent tribunal to make final decisions on disputes.
Twenty years ago, Strahl said, there was confrontation, not negotiation. "The federal government has been much quicker to recognize that claims exist," said Strahl. "[It] used to be [that] we were just in complete denial. We would just say 'No, we're not going to negotiate, we're not talking, there's nothing to talk about.'"
But the Quebec chief of the Assembly of First Nations, Ghislain Picard, said he has his doubts. Picard points to the number of outstanding land claims and to the Royal Commission Report on Aboriginal Peoples, which was set up after the Oka Crisis.
In 1996, the commission made more than 400 recommendations, including a 20-year agenda to "revitalize" First Nations communities and end the "staggering" human and financial cost of supporting them.
'What has changed?'
"What has changed since Oka?" asked Picard. "How many of those recommendations have been implemented?"
Tensions have recently flared again in Kanesatake over a developer's plan to build three homes on a site across the street from the pine forest where the standoff began. Taxes on the land are paid to the municipality of Oka. But members of the Mohawk community argue that the land belongs to them, as part of an ongoing claim.
Residents of Kanesatake have also sought a moratorium on a plan to extract and mill niobium in the region until the claim is resolved. Niobium is used in superconductors and in alloys such as high-strength steel for pipelines and bone implants.
The current grand chief of the Kanesatake Mohawk, Sohenrise Paul Nicholas, said there has been progress on the land claim, but at a snail's pace. "We are the point now where we are going to be starting discussion," said Nicholas.
That little has changed in two decades comes as no surprise to two key players in the Oka Crisis.
'We never learn from history'
"We never learn from history, do we?" John Ciaccia said with a sigh. The former Quebec native affairs minister was at the centre of the storm two decades ago. He was at odds with his own government and police, while scrambling to broker a deal and prevent further bloodshed.
In the months leading up to the crisis, Ciaccia pushed Ottawa to OK an agreement that would have let the disputed territory be acquired by the federal government and given over to the Kanesatake Mohawks.
Ciaccia's voice still chokes with anger and frustration as he recalls the events of that long summer.
Under police protection for much of the crisis, he was also branded a traitor by some of his then-colleagues. Ten years ago, he went public with his view that the blame for the crisis should be placed squarely on the governments of the time - the Quebec Liberal administration of Robert Bourassa and the federal Conservative government under Brian Mulroney.
"It was wrong to put the natives in that position," the retired politician maintains. "The whole crisis could have been avoided with common sense and respect for the native community."
Ottawa blamed
Even at the height of the crisis, he said, Ottawa refused to budge while he struggled to find common ground between the Mohawk leaders and the government. Ottawa dragged its heels, and continues to do so today, Ciaccia said.
It's an opinion echoed by Ellen Gabriel. In 1990, the then 31-year-old firebrand acted as chief Mohawk negotiator, working alongside Ciaccia to bring an end to the stalemate.
Now president of a native women's association, she says Oka's only legacy is a greater awareness of native issues across Canada. "If anything it was a waking up," she said, adding that people realized "in a simplified, clichéd way, there are still ongoing Indian wars."
The initial transfer of the Oka land took place in 1717, when France gave it over to a missionary group. "It's a 290-year-old fight," said Gabriel. "So history's not changing. It's business as usual as far as the government is concerned."
Kanesatake residents planned an evening of songs and poetry on Saturday and a march Sunday from Oka to the site of the protest camp where the crisis began. The marchers were to be joined by some Oka villagers and local farmers who share the opposition to the niobium mine.
All Quebecers have also been invited to the annual Powwow in the Mohawk community of Kahnawake, south of Montreal. Kahnawake's grand chief, Mike Delisle, and local Bloc Québécois MP Carole Freeman billed the event, running through the weekend, as an opportunity to heal scars that still remain following the crisis.
With files from The Canadian Press
Oldgateboatdriver
Army.ca Veteran
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PBI, thank you for noting the naval element. Yes we were there too.
In the Navy, our nickname for Op SALON was the "other golf war", as the Navy was the lead element in the "Gulf War" that led to the liberation of Koweit, of course.
I must say it was an interesting set up, having to report both to Halifax and Montreal (location of Army command at the time). Unfortunately, we probably could not provide this type of assistance today, at least on the east side of Canada: The type of patrol vessels we used is no longer in service and there have been no replacement. MCDV's would be too large for the job and the Orca class are only available on the West coast.
As for the operation itself, no one so far has really done the honour to the masterful use of "threatened force" to achieve a peaceful objective that was used at the time. On the very first day that the Army was to take over the SQ barricades, the commanding general walked over to the other side openly (for which move he was highly criticized in the Quebec papers), shook hand with the native leader that met him and informed him that basically, (1) he had a job to do, (2) He would do it no matter what, (3) under no circumstances would his people shoot first, (4) however, they would shoot last, and (he would inform them every time he was about to make a move so they would know exactly what was about to occur in front of them. After that, it would be up to the Mohawks to decide were they wanted to take this fight to.
He then did exactly what he said he would and, after every "confrontation" set up by the Mohawks for PR purposes, they backed up without making any trouble. Discipline held and won the day.
In the Navy, our nickname for Op SALON was the "other golf war", as the Navy was the lead element in the "Gulf War" that led to the liberation of Koweit, of course.
I must say it was an interesting set up, having to report both to Halifax and Montreal (location of Army command at the time). Unfortunately, we probably could not provide this type of assistance today, at least on the east side of Canada: The type of patrol vessels we used is no longer in service and there have been no replacement. MCDV's would be too large for the job and the Orca class are only available on the West coast.
As for the operation itself, no one so far has really done the honour to the masterful use of "threatened force" to achieve a peaceful objective that was used at the time. On the very first day that the Army was to take over the SQ barricades, the commanding general walked over to the other side openly (for which move he was highly criticized in the Quebec papers), shook hand with the native leader that met him and informed him that basically, (1) he had a job to do, (2) He would do it no matter what, (3) under no circumstances would his people shoot first, (4) however, they would shoot last, and (he would inform them every time he was about to make a move so they would know exactly what was about to occur in front of them. After that, it would be up to the Mohawks to decide were they wanted to take this fight to.
He then did exactly what he said he would and, after every "confrontation" set up by the Mohawks for PR purposes, they backed up without making any trouble. Discipline held and won the day.
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After reading through this entire thread, I just thought I'd throw in my :2c:, having been a MCpl Section 2IC for Op SALON.
There is one event that summed it all up for me. H Coy, 2 RCR had just been given the task to move to the Mercier Bridge. I'm not sure of the background behind it, but there we were, all our M113's revving up, and then moving into the bridge area. The platoon commander went to the confirmatory orders, and I was busy sorting out the section. This lady came by, looking at us curiously and I waved hello. She motioned for me to come over, so I did. In talking, she asked if we were there to help, hinder or occupy. I asked her what the problem was, and she mentioned that there had been a car stopping by the end of her driveway, a few young folks in it. I didn't ask the history, or why they could be there, but since the police were non-existant on the reserve, she felt threatened. I told her that I would keep an eye out for her. I know that she didn't believe me.
Anyway, not half an hour later, a car drove to the end of her driveway, and stopped. I had one of the privates check out the licence plate and record it (using binos, of course), and I went over. I got within about five metres when they noted that I was coming over. They sped out like Starsky and Hutch chasing down Huggy Bear's latest tip! The lady came out within minutes, and we talked, and I assured her that we got his plate number. Now I know that she believed me, and I could see relief in her face.
Another event that same day: a young local fellow came over when we were just setting up. He asked us if we were from "...the RCR Regiment" (sic). We said yes, and then he proceeded to shake our hands. "You saved my life the other night," he said. Turns out he was one of the local fellows we passed through the barricades into the reserve after they were being chased down by a mob of angry locals from outside the reserve. They ended up torching his car (a beater, so he was out by 50 bucks or so! ;D) but he was quite happy to see us again.
So, yeah, it wasn't all about "us" vs "them" or "white" vs "red".
There is one event that summed it all up for me. H Coy, 2 RCR had just been given the task to move to the Mercier Bridge. I'm not sure of the background behind it, but there we were, all our M113's revving up, and then moving into the bridge area. The platoon commander went to the confirmatory orders, and I was busy sorting out the section. This lady came by, looking at us curiously and I waved hello. She motioned for me to come over, so I did. In talking, she asked if we were there to help, hinder or occupy. I asked her what the problem was, and she mentioned that there had been a car stopping by the end of her driveway, a few young folks in it. I didn't ask the history, or why they could be there, but since the police were non-existant on the reserve, she felt threatened. I told her that I would keep an eye out for her. I know that she didn't believe me.
Anyway, not half an hour later, a car drove to the end of her driveway, and stopped. I had one of the privates check out the licence plate and record it (using binos, of course), and I went over. I got within about five metres when they noted that I was coming over. They sped out like Starsky and Hutch chasing down Huggy Bear's latest tip! The lady came out within minutes, and we talked, and I assured her that we got his plate number. Now I know that she believed me, and I could see relief in her face.
Another event that same day: a young local fellow came over when we were just setting up. He asked us if we were from "...the RCR Regiment" (sic). We said yes, and then he proceeded to shake our hands. "You saved my life the other night," he said. Turns out he was one of the local fellows we passed through the barricades into the reserve after they were being chased down by a mob of angry locals from outside the reserve. They ended up torching his car (a beater, so he was out by 50 bucks or so! ;D) but he was quite happy to see us again.
So, yeah, it wasn't all about "us" vs "them" or "white" vs "red".
