The Next Canadian Government

[OldSolduer]

Got a link to a story on that one? I’m curious to find the case and how it played out.

That has happened here in Manitoba as well, but it took place so long ago - and I think the complainers were told by the courts "you knew about smell and yet you moved there - too bad for you. " Basically pound sand you urban idjits.

 

[brihard]

That has happened here in Manitoba as well, but it took place so long ago - and I think the complainers were told by the courts "you knew about smell and yet you moved there - too bad for you. " Basically pound sand you urban idjits.

Yeah, I’m just doubtful the farmers had too much of a problem in the case he’s referring to. Fundamentally the courts will defer to the law, including lawful land use.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I am starting this new thread because of today’s announcement that the NDP has cancelled the Confidence and Supply Agreement; that means that we may have an election well before Oct 25.

I am assuming, based on recent polling, that the next government will be a Conservative majority regime.

I am also assuming that the Conservative Party will begin, soon, to make some concrete policy announcements that will be based on its Sep 23 Policy Declaration.

My opening shot is: Democratic Reform.

My starting point is an interesting article by John Ibbitson in today’s Globe and Mail in which he mentions the importance of the Salisbury Convention - another act by a member of the great family of my avatar. The key point of the Salisbury Convention is that the unelected Senate of Canada may NOT overrule the government on any matter that was part of its election platform.

In its Policy Declaration the Conservative Party said (page 5) “The Conservative Party supports the election of senators … [and] … The Conservative Party believes in an equal Senate to address the uneven distribution of Canada’s population and to provide a balance to safeguard regional interests.”

I believe, very firmly, that an elected Senate is important. Canada is one of the very few modern nations that still has an unelected legislative body. I also believe that a federal state needs a bicameral legislature where one chamber represents each community (constituency) (Chambre des Communes/House of Commons) while the other represents the provinces which are the “partners” in the federation.

I am far less persuaded that an equal Senate is important. I know that it works for the USA and I know that the ratio of California:Wyoming (39M:0.6M) is not too much different from the ratio of Ontario-PEI (14M:0.14M). I think Canada should have a regionally balanced Senate. The six regions are BC, the Prairies, Ontario, Québec, Atlantic Canada and The North and First Nations communities.

I think the Senate of Canada MUST consist, only, of elected members. I also think that there is an ironclad rule of Canadian politics which says that Québec never loses. I believe that Québec would, rightfully, says that it lost ground if it had the same number of senators as, say, New Brunswick or Saskatchewan. I neither know nor care what the optimum mix of elected senators is - lets say that Atlantic Canada keeps 30 and Québec and Ontario also get 30 senators each. Should the the Prairies provinces get 30 senators between them? I neither know nor do I care a great deal … BUT, in the 21st century, Canada should NOT have an unelected legislative chamber.

I believe that the Conservative Party must state, in its 2024/25 election platform, that it will press for an elected and effective Senate of Canada.

I believe that senators should be elected during each provincial general election using a proportional representation system. Individual senators may then caucus with like minded senators from other provinces. This will make the politics of the federal legislature more complex and it may, eventually, negate the need for the Salisbury Doctrine.

Let's pretend you got your wish. How would the GoC dismiss the current senators, meaning what mechanism exists for this ? Or would it simply be a legislative manoeuvre?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

How is an equal vote making them a second class citizen? Source for 80 percent of the GDP being generated in rural areas / by those residing in rural ridings? Because according the Ministry Respnsible its 30% Rural opportunity, national prosperity: An Economic Development Strategy for rural Canada

Almost all of the electricity for the cities comes from rural areas. Not to mention milk, wheat, eggs and for a lot of cities their water as well. Not to mention the wealth from producing minerals, oil, gas, lumber. Anyone that believes that equals 30% is having number games to put it politely.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Yeah, I’m just doubtful the farmers had too much of a problem in the case he’s referring to. Fundamentally the courts will defer to the law, including lawful land use.

Some regional districts enacted bylaws against nuisance complaints. so if you complained about the smell of manure, you got told immediately to pound sand.

Some literature from BC https://www2.gov.bc.ca/assets/gov/f...-program/goodneighbourfarming_booklet_web.pdf

 

[KevinB]

Yeah, I’m just doubtful the farmers had too much of a problem in the case he’s referring to. Fundamentally the courts will defer to the law, including lawful land use.

Generally those are "Coming to the Nuisance" laws. It is one area where in Canada that the tie goes to the urban sprawl in the name of progress...
There is a lot of case law on it.

 

[markppcli]

Almost all of the electricity for the cities comes from rural areas. Not to mention milk, wheat, eggs and for a lot of cities their water as well. Not to mention the wealth from producing minerals, oil, gas, lumber. Anyone that believes that equals 30% is having number games to put it politely.

So that’s a no for a source to support your claim then?

Here’s a break down of the GDP by industry, take a look and where agriculture (despite its obvious importance) actually sits. Along with primary resource extraction.

Canada: GDP by industry 2024 | Statista

This statistic shows the Gross Domestic Product (GDP) of Canada in February 2024, distinguished by major industry.

www.statista.com

And if you want a second source here you go Gross domestic product (GDP) at basic prices, by industry, annual average

 

[Edward Campbell]

Let's pretend you got your wish. How would the GoC dismiss the current senators, meaning what mechanism exists for this ? Or would it simply be a legislative manoeuvre?

It might be a slow process ... the process of converting the US Senate from being appointed (by state legislatures) to being directly elected (the 17th Amendment to the Constitution) took several years of wrangling and persuasion just over 100 years ago. I think a political carrot and stick approach will be necessary to persuade most senators to resign their seats and to persuade Canadians to want to elect their Senate.

 

[YZT580]

Got a link to a story on that one? I’m curious to find the case and how it played out.

sorry no, they were my neighbours that were involved and they ended up selling the cattle and selling the land for more townhouses: which wasn't their initial intent. It happened fairly quickly too as they didn't want to be involved in litigation and the expenses involved. They were hereditary farmers and this goes back to the early 80's

 

[Brad Sallows]

It doesn't matter if 99% of Canada's GDP comes from activities that happen in cities. Cities are decidedly not autarkies. They'd collapse into savagery without energy, food, and materials from the hinterlands. That doesn't mean we ought to entertain schemes for disproportionate rural representation-by-population. It does mean urban voters ought to be educated to understand how vulnerable they are to mere dumb insolence, and therefore how important it is to not be a tyrannical majority.

 

[GR66]

Almost all of the electricity for the cities comes from rural areas. Not to mention milk, wheat, eggs and for a lot of cities their water as well. Not to mention the wealth from producing minerals, oil, gas, lumber. Anyone that believes that equals 30% is having number games to put it politely.

And the 80% that live in the cities are the ones buying the energy, milk, wheat, eggs, minerals, oil, gas and lumber from the 20% which provides their income.

Personally I'm fine with the compromise that over-represents the rural and small province populations...I'm just pointing out that it's not a simple one-way street where Rural = Give (Good) and Urban = Take (Bad)

 

[Good2Golf]

Almost all of the electricity for the cities comes from rural areas.

Two things: 1) that’s not even close to being accurate (eg. Niagara Falls, Bruce/Pickering/Darlington in the GTA-Golden Horseshoe urban zone/blight/mass/blob/etc. for ONT, NGPs in AB metro centres, etc.); and 2) to describe other sources, let’s say Hydro in Qc, NL and BC as ‘rural’ are you implying that rural farmers and simple folk are making the electricity to power Canada and so it’s not just food that city slickers depend on?

 

[PrairieFella]

I've always been a fan of a hybrid system. I personally don't think another popularity or money-spending contest but this one being for Senators will benefit Canadians. I think there is a certain wisdom in the appointment of the august to the Senate as sober second thought however it's uncomfortably undemocratic, lacks legitimacy to actually push back on the Commons and too easily gamed for political motives. In my view I think it would still be appointed but Senators must be unanimously chosen by the legislatures of their respective provinces. Let the provinces choose who represents their interests in Ottawa and it gains that legitimacy the Senate lacks since they are unanimously selected by elected officials in their home provinces. Heck, give the First Nations, Inuit and Métis a couple senators each selected through similar criteria.

By requiring unanimous consent of the legislatures, I think that would ensure a higher calibre of candidate and give them all the mandate they need to succeed.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

View attachment 87789
Two things: 1) that’s not even close to being accurate (eg. Niagara Falls, Bruce/Pickering/Darlington in the GTA-Golden Horseshoe urban zone/blight/mass/blob/etc. for ONT, NGPs in AB metro centres, etc.); and 2) to describe other sources, let’s say Hydro in Qc, NL and BC as ‘rural’ are you implying that rural farmers and simple folk are making the electricity to power Canada and so it’s not just food that city slickers depend on?

I will give you Ontario with it nukes, but a huge chunk of power production comes from dams and the water for those dams comes from large drainages that are outside of urban areas. That accounts for 60% of power production.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

So that’s a no for a source to support your claim then?

Here’s a break down of the GDP by industry, take a look and where agriculture (despite its obvious importance) actually sits. Along with primary resource extraction.

Canada: GDP by industry 2024 | Statista

This statistic shows the Gross Domestic Product (GDP) of Canada in February 2024, distinguished by major industry.

www.statista.com

And if you want a second source here you go Gross domestic product (GDP) at basic prices, by industry, annual average

My point is , that the cities would be incapable of generating wealth without the rural areas supplying all of these resources. Yes rural areas need the cities as well. But most Canadian city dwellers are horribly ignorant of the needs and issues of rural Canada. Most of these cities are always teetering on the brink of serious issues if those things fail as Calgary just found out.

 

[Haggis]

But most Canadian city dwellers are horribly ignorant of the needs and issues of rural Canada.

Gun control enters the chat.

 

[YZT580]

I will give you Ontario with it nukes, but a huge chunk of power production comes from dams and the water for those dams comes from large drainages that are outside of urban areas. That accounts for 60% of power production.

The Bruce is still very much a rural area. Although Southampton may reach city population in the summer, it is a very quiet neighbourhood in January. And Pickering is just starting to be swallowed up by the GTA. Their farmers are the next multimillionaires as development reaches out; either that or they will be fighting odor complaints in court; especially if they raise pigs.

 

[Kilted]

I think that all of the major parties in Canada realize that a constitutional amendment to change the Senate is basically impossible and won't spend much time on it. I hope the next government returns to partisan appointments the way it was supposed to be done.

 

[Good2Golf]

I will give you Ontario with it nukes, but a huge chunk of power production comes from dams and the water for those dams comes from large drainages that are outside of urban areas. That accounts for 60% of power production.

Which I addressed in my quote. Are implying that it is ‘rural folk’ who are accountable for/associated with the production of hydroelectric power in BC, ON, QC and NL? Or that they somehow have the voice of proponency for hydro power, that if they weren’t in the region of Site C, or Great Whale or Muskrat Falls, that Canadians wouldn’t get reliable hydroelectricity?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Which I addressed in my quote. Are implying that it is ‘rural folk’ who are accountable for/associated with the production of hydroelectric power in BC, ON, QC and NL? Or that they somehow have the voice of proponency for hydro power, that if they weren’t in the region of Site C, or Great Whale or Muskrat Falls, that Canadians wouldn’t get reliable hydroelectricity?

The storage and collection of water is an impact on the rural areas. Drainages often cover vast areas, encompassing where they live and what rights they have or not. It is often the "rural folk" that operate and maintain those facilities and transmission lines.
The impact of Oil and Gas extraction and transportation is also there, not only land impacts, water usage rights, road usage and air quality.