The Defence Budget [superthread]

[dapaterson]

There are provisions in the policy to provide different pricing, where warranted, for shift workers.  As for lugging kit on the bus: been there, done that.  (Or buy a buddy a beer and carpool or... many ways around such problems)

And yes, driving to work is often a choice.  In Shilo, Wainwright or Cold Lake?  No.  In a major urban centre?  Yes.  And note that in those remote areas, there is no fee for parking...

Life is about making choices.  If you choose to have a large house on a big piece of property far outside town, then that's a choice you made.  If that choice means you have to drive to work instead of taking a bus or subway (in an urban area where that's an option) - that was your choice as well.

On to "The government pays for that" comment.  How wonderful.  Government gets its money from where, exactly?  (Hint: Look at your T4)  Maybe the people who benefit from it (the folks who drive in and park on the lot) should pay for it?

 

[Eaglelord17]

On to "The government pays for that" comment.  How wonderful.  Government gets its money from where, exactly?  (Hint: Look at your T4)  Maybe the people who benefit from it (the folks who drive in and park on the lot) should pay for it?

So by your logic every single base in Canada should pay for parking? Or is it only fair if Halifax pays for it? What the complaint is something that has never been charged is now suddenly being charged and creating a unequal standard of living for one certain area (which also means they should also raise PLD for Halifax area as this is now a extra expense only occurred in that one location).

Last I also heard (mind you a couple years out of date) they were making significantly more money than what was needed to pay for the parking area and maintain it. When someone asked where the money was going, they didn't get a answer. Just one of the many cuts they have made, and part of the reason people have been leaving in droves. Thank god I am no longer in the Navy, never regretted making the decision to leave once.

 

[blacktriangle]

The other issue is that the CAF basically expects you to have a vehicle. At least in my experience. Imagine trying to DAG in the NCR by taking public transit. Not exactly the most efficient use of time.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

There are provisions in the policy to provide different pricing, where warranted, for shift workers.  As for lugging kit on the bus: been there, done that.  (Or buy a buddy a beer and carpool or... many ways around such problems)

And yes, driving to work is often a choice.  In Shilo, Wainwright or Cold Lake?  No.  In a major urban centre?  Yes.  And note that in those remote areas, there is no fee for parking...

Life is about making choices.  If you choose to have a large house on a big piece of property far outside town, then that's a choice you made.  If that choice means you have to drive to work instead of taking a bus or subway (in an urban area where that's an option) - that was your choice as well.

WTF exactly does this have to do with some CAF members have to pay for parking, some don't?  If I live in Dartmouth and work in Halifax, I  pay to park.  If I live in Halifax and work in Shearwater, I don't have to pay to park.  I don't see how that is fair, one mbr is paying for something where the other isn't, the BS stuff you keep focusing on above apply equally to both. Why is it that you have no trouble with SOME people having to pay to park, and not ALL people?  What, should every CAF member's life be based solely on things like paid parking?  Or do we care about the welfare of (some of) our subordinates?  Pretty sure that not in the Vol 1, Ch 5 stuff.

On to "The government pays for that" comment.  How wonderful.  Government gets its money from where, exactly?  (Hint: Look at your T4)  Maybe the people who benefit from it (the folks who drive in and park on the lot) should pay for it?

Great!  So when do I get to stop paying EI and welfare;  there are plenty of lazy fucks on welfare and EI who can, but just don't work.  Like you don't want to pay for parking lots in Hfx, I don't want to pay for them with taxes;  I like millions of working Canadians don't benefit from those things.

Oh...wait...do we get to decide what our taxes get spent on? 

 

[Flavus101]

^

Solid post.

 

[CBH99]

Just my 0.02, which may be overly simplistic & outdated...

But I feel like we - as an organization - complicate the living **** out of everything to the point that we actually create a lot more work for ourselves, and create a lot of our own problems.

Government employees shouldn't have to pay for parking when parking on government property.  Keep it simple.

Issue a parking permit to each employee/member who is parking on base/government property.  Ticket people who park without a permit.  Simple.


We talk so much about PLD here, PLD there, cost of working on this base is more than this base, etc.  I feel like we create a lot of the paperwork that we then in turn complain about.

I'm NOT saying this for everything across the board.  Obviously the cost of living in Shilo, Pet, Edmonton, Victoria, etc - fluctuate significantly.

But as for PARKING?  Come to work, park for free.  Simple as hell.

 

[Flavus101]

It is all about creating little empires (job security) for some people.

Those who are so far removed from where the frontline work gets done in the CAF have ample time to worry about these issues which really shouldn't require much thought to get right. These are the types who devote their time to these challenging issues of determining parking rates and what headdress we will wear today.
I wonder how often the people that make these decisions are affected by the decision (or realize how much it affects a Pte when he gets a couple more $100 deductions from his paycheque).

 

[dapaterson]

WTF exactly does this have to do with some CAF members have to pay for parking, some don't?

Ah, the key point comes out: Someone else might be getting something, so I should too.

There is no reason for the CAF to run parking lots in locations where there's a commercial market.  It's not a core military task.  So get out of that business.  Same as CANEX - not needed, so why keep that albatross?  The CAF is not a retail empire.  It's not a real estate empire.  It's not (despite appearances at times) a form of uniformed welfare.  There are core roles for a military to perform - and 50c off Tide or managing parking lots are not core military tasks.

For the "Free parking everywhere!" proponents, I'd suggest you read up on induced demand.

 

[Stoker]

Ah, the key point comes out: Someone else might be getting something, so I should too.

There is no reason for the CAF to run parking lots in locations where there's a commercial market.  It's not a core military task.  So get out of that business.  Same as CANEX - not needed, so why keep that albatross?  The CAF is not a retail empire.  It's not a real estate empire.  It's not (despite appearances at times) a form of uniformed welfare.  There are core roles for a military to perform - and 50c off Tide or managing parking lots are not core military tasks.

For the "Free parking everywhere!" proponents, I'd suggest you read up on induced demand.

On the other hand its also "i'm paying so you should too" attitude as well. I guess we sailors don't dare complain about our lot in life as we have all the advantages. I'm against anything that puts hardship on the member, I can well afford parking, its the OS I worry about. As previously mentioned here it seems like death by a thousand cuts.

 

[Remius]

I guess we sailors don't dare complain about our lot in life as we have all the advantages.

That's not what I get from reading the last few pages of this thread...

 

[NavyShooter]

Death by a thousand cuts indeed.

Some things that I keep thinking about.

1.  Personnel costs are (I believe) the biggest piece of DND's associated costs.  Less personnel = less costs.

2.  Specialist personnel cost more.  I will note the 'dumbing down' of my own trade's technical training is, in my opinion, likely to result in my trade group losing Spec 1 pay.  Note, the increased use of ISSC services....and look at the crew percentage on an MCDV that's drawing spec pay....apply that to a CPF....or the CSC. 

3.  Soup, Parking, etc are simply the window dressing to the structural changes that will much more broadly impact the RCN going forward.  Joining the MSE Trades together, shortening their training, moving away from a CERA to a Chief Engineer, etc.  Parking?  Bah.  Cost of coming to work.  Soup?  Nice to have on ship, but I don't get it ashore.  Lunch?  Again, nice to have on ship, but I don't get it ashore. 

What are the REAL changes that will impact the way we do business?

Some of the skill sets that a LS once held 20 years ago when I was on the Gatineau are now held at the CPO2 or PO1 level, IF you're lucky to have the right person in position. 

Just some thoughts from reading the past couple of pages here...

NS

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Ah, the key point comes out: Someone else might be getting something, so I should too.

Nope.  Not my message, if that was directed at me.  As I said, I DO NOT PAY FOR PARKING.  So I've nothing to gain from my stance.

There is no reason for the CAF to run parking lots in locations where there's a commercial market.  It's not a core military task.  So get out of that business.  Same as CANEX - not needed, so why keep that albatross?  The CAF is not a retail empire.  It's not a real estate empire.  It's not (despite appearances at times) a form of uniformed welfare.  There are core roles for a military to perform - and 50c off Tide or managing parking lots are not core military tasks.

Have you seen the parking lots on IVO the dockyard before?  Do you realize that, even with THAT much space, there isn't enough room for everyone to park and its a shit show??

The US Forces maintain PXs, NEXs, etc on deployed bases, NASs, etc.  I guess that's just part of the looking/supporting people stuff that is part and parcel of the military as well.  I shopped at one today, and when I was deployed at a PX because the CAF is doing absolutely SFA in places like Camp Canada.  Jesus, we even piggy back off their (USAF) Christmas turkey dinner.  Is this really something to brag about?  I know...we do things on deployments, etc with the same mentality as we operate in NATO;  hoping someone else will pick up part or some of the check.  Not something to pat ourselves on the back about.

For the "Free parking everywhere!" proponents, I'd suggest you read up on induced demand.

What does that have to do with double standards and government charging tax payers to park on the parking lot their tax dollars paid for.

We are talking about parking.  Is this a new strange, concept, that people can't all live across the road from work, and must travel, even if they do to do things like drop kids off, shop, groceries, whatever and need a fuckin vehicle in this modern world?  :facepalm:

 

[Halifax Tar]

There is no reason for the CAF to run parking lots in locations where there's a commercial market. 

Ummm where is the commercial market around the DKYRD or STAD  ?

There is 1, small, privately owned lot on Brunswick street that is always full up with JR members who don't have the TI for a parking pass. 

 

[Good2Golf]

The other issue is that the CAF basically expects you to have a vehicle. At least in my experience. Imagine trying to DAG in the NCR by taking public transit. Not exactly the most efficient use of time.

Although OC Transpo would most definitely be better than the NDHQ shuttle... :nod:

 

[Stoker]

Death by a thousand cuts indeed.

Some things that I keep thinking about.

1.  Personnel costs are (I believe) the biggest piece of DND's associated costs.  Less personnel = less costs.

2.  Specialist personnel cost more.  I will note the 'dumbing down' of my own trade's technical training is, in my opinion, likely to result in my trade group losing Spec 1 pay.  Note, the increased use of ISSC services....and look at the crew percentage on an MCDV that's drawing spec pay....apply that to a CPF....or the CSC. 

3.  Soup, Parking, etc are simply the window dressing to the structural changes that will much more broadly impact the RCN going forward.  Joining the MSE Trades together, shortening their training, moving away from a CERA to a Chief Engineer, etc.  Parking?  Bah.  Cost of coming to work.  Soup?  Nice to have on ship, but I don't get it ashore.  Lunch?  Again, nice to have on ship, but I don't get it ashore. 

What are the REAL changes that will impact the way we do business?

Some of the skill sets that a LS once held 20 years ago when I was on the Gatineau are now held at the CPO2 or PO1 level, IF you're lucky to have the right person in position. 

Just some thoughts from reading the past couple of pages here...

NS

Its the little things Brad that don't really affect me but to the Jr sailor who sails it may be the deal breaker on retention. Its funny you mention personnel as you know we want to sail our ships with much less personnel in the future and utilize ISSC for repairs which fits into less qualifications and retention of tech or spec pay. A quick look at the message file each day shows the mass Exodus that is occurring. I just got offered my CT, drop one rank and back to sea as Chief Engineer for another 3 years, too bad I already did 10 as a Chief Engineer, we are that hard up for personnel as you know.

 

[Stoker]

Ummm where is the commercial market around the DKYRD or STAD  ?

There is 1, small, privately owned lot on Brunswick street that is always full up with JR members who don't have the TI for a parking pass.

They used that lot and a couple others to base the fair market value on, even though right next door Irving built a parking structure that is free for their employees and should of been included with the market review.

 

[Halifax Tar]

They used that lot and a couple others to base the fair market value on, even though right next door Irving built a parking structure that is free for their employees and should of been included with the market review.

What other lots are in a reasonable walking distance ?  I've been here 14 years and I know of 1.

:Tin-Foil-Hat: there is more to this story than is being told.  It sure would help if the uppers would just come out with an honest "This is why we did this" document.

SNIC is a huge budget factor, but it also is in Kingston, and Borden ect... Do they pay for parking ?  Negative.  Hell when I was SQ at 1 Line we used to bring our trucks/cars in the loading bays after hours in the winter, not sure I should have said that lol Vern might kill me now...

 

[PPCLI Guy]

The US Forces maintain PXs, NEXs, etc on deployed bases, NASs, etc.  I guess that's just part of the looking/supporting people stuff that is part and parcel of the military as well.  I shopped at one today, and when I was deployed at a PX because the CAF is doing absolutely SFA in places like Camp Canada.  Jesus, we even piggy back off their (USAF) Christmas turkey dinner.  Is this really something to brag about?  I know...we do things on deployments, etc with the same mentality as we operate in NATO;  hoping someone else will pick up part or some of the check.  Not something to pat ourselves on the back about.

564 Billion dollars (80% of which will be borrowed, as the deficit is 446B) buys you a lot of things - including over 2 million people in uniform and 1.4 million civilian and contractors.  They have the critical mass that makes PXs and lifetime health care make sense.  We do not.

As an aside, our military spending represents 120% of our deficit, (19B vs 25B).

 

[QV]

Life is about making choices. 

Right.  How is retention going anyway?

 

[dapaterson]

Right.  How is retention going anyway?

At historical levels, actually... 7%(+/-) attrition.