The Cost Of Treating Troops As Free Labor Providers

[Rifleman62]

There should be enough Capts at HDHQ to form a 100 person Guard of Honour. Throw in a couple of Majs and a LCol as guard Comd. Still need a MWO/CWO as Gd SM and a colour party.

Could probably do several PD's before some of the Capt's were dinged twice.

 

[Ostrozac]

There should be enough Capts at HDHQ to form a 100 person Guard of Honour. Throw in a couple of Majs and a LCol as guard Comd. Still need a MWO/CWO as Gd SM and a colour party.

Could probably do several PD's before some of the Capt's were dinged twice.

That's a really good point. I once had a CWO in the NCR remark to me that he could stand up a 100-man guard of Majors with less impact on the real world than a 100-man guard of Cpl/MCpl. Our Junior NCO's in the NCR tend to be busy doing the primary work of their trade -- the Geo types at Mapping and Charting Establishment, all the Signals types maintaining our monster servers and networks, the RMS Clerks that are sustaining admin for such a large organization, even the Image Techs at ADM(PA) and CFSU(O) Imaging Services that are supposed to be a resource for taking pictures of and publicizing our ceremonial events, not participating in them. I could go on, but you see what I mean. When people think NDHQ they think thousands of cubicle drones, but when the call for parade comes, it's not likely to be the Major from New Fur Hat Procurement 1-2-3 who's going to get the call, it's more likely going to be the MCpl who maintains his crypto.

 

[daftandbarmy]

That's a really good point. I once had a CWO in the NCR remark to me that he could stand up a 100-man guard of Majors with less impact on the real world than a 100-man guard of Cpl/MCpl. Our Junior NCO's in the NCR tend to be busy doing the primary work of their trade -- the Geo types at Mapping and Charting Establishment, all the Signals types maintaining our monster servers and networks, the RMS Clerks that are sustaining admin for such a large organization, even the Image Techs at ADM(PA) and CFSU(O) Imaging Services that are supposed to be a resource for taking pictures of and publicizing our ceremonial events, not participating in them. I could go on, but you see what I mean. When people think NDHQ they think thousands of cubicle drones, but when the call for parade comes, it's not likely to be the Major from New Fur Hat Procurement 1-2-3 who's going to get the call, it's more likely going to be the MCpl who maintains his crypto.

Why not make it a rotating duty of some kind then?

It would be like an episode of 'the Office' translated into a military ceremonial environment stag list, viz:

Public Duties Roster

Monday; 4th floor, Quarter Guard
Tuesday: 6th floor, Colour Party
Wednesday: Atrium Annex, Cenotaph Guard
Thursday: CDS' Office, Feu de Joie + 3 X ADCs
Friday: Everyone wear red for the visit of the Chinese Premier

 

[Pusser]

That's a really good point. I once had a CWO in the NCR remark to me that he could stand up a 100-man guard of Majors with less impact on the real world than a 100-man guard of Cpl/MCpl. Our Junior NCO's in the NCR tend to be busy doing the primary work of their trade -- the Geo types at Mapping and Charting Establishment, all the Signals types maintaining our monster servers and networks, the RMS Clerks that are sustaining admin for such a large organization, even the Image Techs at ADM(PA) and CFSU(O) Imaging Services that are supposed to be a resource for taking pictures of and publicizing our ceremonial events, not participating in them. I could go on, but you see what I mean. When people think NDHQ they think thousands of cubicle drones, but when the call for parade comes, it's not likely to be the Major from New Fur Hat Procurement 1-2-3 who's going to get the call, it's more likely going to be the MCpl who maintains his crypto.

Trouble is, have you ever seen the average major/LCdr march and do drill?  Truly depressing sometimes...

 

[medicineman]

Trouble is, have you ever seen the average major/LCdr march and do drill?  Truly depressing sometimes...

Call it "Officer Professional Development" then  ;D.

MM

 

[Jarnhamar]

That's a really good point. I once had a CWO in the NCR remark to me that he could stand up a 100-man guard of Majors with less impact on the real world than a 100-man guard of Cpl/MCpl. Our Junior NCO's in the NCR tend to be busy doing the primary work of their trade -- the Geo types at Mapping and Charting Establishment, all the Signals types maintaining our monster servers and networks, the RMS Clerks that are sustaining admin for such a large organization, even the Image Techs at ADM(PA) and CFSU(O) Imaging Services that are supposed to be a resource for taking pictures of and publicizing our ceremonial events, not participating in them. I could go on, but you see what I mean. When people think NDHQ they think thousands of cubicle drones, but when the call for parade comes, it's not likely to be the Major from New Fur Hat Procurement 1-2-3 who's going to get the call, it's more likely going to be the MCpl who maintains his crypto.

I believe that was the gist of the article. Rank has it's privileges but some troops have considerable special courses an training, treating them like phone operators and garbage sweepers can have a big detrimental effect on their morale and desire to stay in uniform.

Speaking about what the article said with regards to showing up to a building an hour early and waiting around. It may not seem like that big of a deal to some but when you have to arrange special child care for the following day where someone takes your kids an hour earlier (and you pay out the ass for it) then you show up somewhere and wait around for that hour it really kills morale.

Often our first reaction is "if you don't like it quit" but then when someone wants to quit we do a 180o turn and try to keep them in with high speed courses and other offers.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Trouble is, have you ever seen the average major/LCdr march and do drill?  Truly depressing sometimes...

Nothing beats doing 2 weeks straight of drill practice for a parade to have someone march walk out in front of the parade like it's a stroll in a park.

 

[Remius]

It's been tried, half-heartedly, in the past. I was on an opening of parliament when 3RCR provided the guard. The fact of the matter is that Petawawa views Ottawa ceremonial taskings as a burden not laid on other bases, and many of our other major bases are too far for road moves, making the cost of hotels and airlift excessive.

There has been some talk kicked about about having a standing Public Duties unit in the NCR -- the rotating task for the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier may be the first step toward this. And there would be no reason to shut down the clearly successful Army Reserve summer program -- thanks to the double fists of Posting Season and Summer Leave the Regular Force tends to lose a lot of capacity over the summer months.

On the whole, I think it's overdue. I think pulling Geo Techs and Comm Researchers off of their primary duty at short notice and putting them on parade, not because their current task is low priority, but because they are a Cpl/MCpl in the NCR is a silly way to allocate scarce resources. But a standing Public Duties unit would need infrastructure, and infrastructure in the NCR seems to be an ongoing drama.

My understanding is that the 3 reserve Guard units are expanding in numbers to help fill some of that role

 

[dimsum]

My understanding is that the 3 reserve Guard units are expanding in numbers to help fill some of that role

The problem with that, and this has been mentioned already, is that they're dependent on who's available.  If VIP X shows up on a Tues morning with only a few days' notice, will those units be able to scrounge enough people in time?

 

[dapaterson]

The problem with that, and this has been mentioned already, is that they're dependent on who's available.  If VIP X shows up on a Tues morning with only a few days' notice, will those units be able to scrounge enough people in time?

And given that the CGG are two hours away, and the GGHG four (on a good day), you may also be at the mercy of traffic.

 

[Remius]

The problem with that, and this has been mentioned already, is that they're dependent on who's available.  If VIP X shows up on a Tues morning with only a few days' notice, will those units be able to scrounge enough people in time?

Which I assume is why they are expanding.  If unit X has more people to draw from then they are likely in a better position to fill or augment. 

 

[daftandbarmy]

And given that the CGG are two hours away, and the GGHG four (on a good day), you may also be at the mercy of traffic.

You could always give them the Airborne role so they can respond faster.

It seems that ceremonial will become more important than operations with this new government so you could build a good business case  ;D

 

[dapaterson]

It seems that ceremonial will become more important than operations with this new government so you could build a good business case  ;D

How so?  We're over a month into their mandate and we haven't seen a single change to rank insignia, a single unit resurrected from the Supplementary Order of Battle...

 

[Jarnhamar]

You could always give them the Airborne role so they can respond faster.

It seems that ceremonial will become more important than operations with this new government so you could build a good business case  ;D

More running for PT and less ruck marches.

 

[CountDC]

TB policy for charging other government departments for services rendered does not apply to labour.  In fact, it only covers incremental costs.  For example, if vehicles were required for a task, DND can charge an OGD for fuel, but not a rental fee for the vehicle (the government already owns it) nor wages for the people driving it or riding in it (they're already being paid by the government).

Since when?  CFM gives you the rates to charge OGDs, DRMIS provides the means to transfer the funds from OGDs into DNDs coffers and in 2011/2012 I was billing OGDs for wages, one bill alone was in the $900k a month range.  I also billed them based on the CFM for any expenses for the move if they had to be posted. Yes the mbr has been paid by the CF/DND but we do have the option available to create an MOU and bill them to recover what we paid the member while he was working for them instead of us.

 

[Pusser]

Since when?  CFM gives you the rates to charge OGDs, DRMIS provides the means to transfer the funds from OGDs into DNDs coffers and in 2011/2012 I was billing OGDs for wages, one bill alone was in the $900k a month range.  I also billed them based on the CFM for any expenses for the move if they had to be posted. Yes the mbr has been paid by the CF/DND but we do have the option available to create an MOU and bill them to recover what we paid the member while he was working for them instead of us.

Admittedly, it's been awhile since I was in this position, but I'd be curious to know more details about your particular example.  I was referring to one-off taskings.

 

[CountDC]

Why not make it a rotating duty of some kind then?

When I was there it was.  I believe it was someone in the CF Chiefs area that kept a spreadsheet and would send out the calls to the different sections advising that it was their turn and how many bodies they were to provide.  Most parades were done by jrs but Remembrance day a lot of the SNCOs took the tasking so the jrs could have the day with their families. 

Where we generally agreed they needed to assign individuals to on at least a one year with 1 or 2 days a month scheduled for practices was the funeral guard.  Pulling people a few days prior to the funeral and giving them a few hours to practice was not the greatest.  Some people have not slow marched since basic so 20 years later don't look the greatest trying to relearn it.  As there are numerous funerals/internments in the year it would be good to have a standing core guard to call on for them.

 

[daftandbarmy]

When I was there it was.  I believe it was someone in the CF Chiefs area that kept a spreadsheet and would send out the calls to the different sections advising that it was their turn and how many bodies they were to provide.  Most parades were done by jrs but Remembrance day a lot of the SNCOs took the tasking so the jrs could have the day with their families. 

Where we generally agreed they needed to assign individuals to on at least a one year with 1 or 2 days a month scheduled for practices was the funeral guard.  Pulling people a few days prior to the funeral and giving them a few hours to practice was not the greatest.  Some people have not slow marched since basic so 20 years later don't look the greatest trying to relearn it.  As there are numerous funerals/internments in the year it would be good to have a standing core guard to call on for them.

Hmmmm..... if only there was a well decked out combat arms unit, based in Ottawa, that could perform a ceremonial function, similar to the Googlie Fooglies, etc given a few Class B bucks?

Oh, that would be the Camerons ....

 

[jollyjacktar]

When I was there it was.  I believe it was someone in the CF Chiefs area that kept a spreadsheet and would send out the calls to the different sections advising that it was their turn and how many bodies they were to provide.  Most parades were done by jrs but Remembrance day a lot of the SNCOs took the tasking so the jrs could have the day with their families. 

Where we generally agreed they needed to assign individuals to on at least a one year with 1 or 2 days a month scheduled for practices was the funeral guard.  Pulling people a few days prior to the funeral and giving them a few hours to practice was not the greatest.  Some people have not slow marched since basic so 20 years later don't look the greatest trying to relearn it.  As there are numerous funerals/internments in the year it would be good to have a standing core guard to call on for them.

Things haven't changed.  It is still at short notice,  internments are fairly numerous but GoH things come up too on a regular basis.  They do try to share it around as best they can.

 

[Furniture]

I think the CAF really should start looking at how we manage people's time more carefully, sure we are paid an annual salary but that's a poor excuse to waste people's time. The infamous 15 minutes early for the 15 minute early timing is a great example. As mentioned earlier it's not necessarily the time wasted at work that is the issue, but the planning to make it happen outside usual hours that is. Or the idea that all members must be in their work place all day whether or not there is actually anything for them to do, on the off chance that someone will call at 1545 with a manual labour job requiring 100+ pers to deal with.

I'm not advocating for short work days all the time, but if we are routinely expecting our people to be at work early, or later than is normal we should also be routinely be sending them home when there is nothing requiring them at work. Sure some guys will spend less hours in the office than others, but that's already happening anyway. Some jobs require a 24/7 presence at work even when nothing happening, but not every sailor needs to be on a ship until 1545 Monday-Friday. Just as I'm sure not every infantry/artillery/armoured soldier needs to be in the hangar or break room until 1600 every day. Maybe more frequent and official early days for most would help compensate for the hours/days/weeks/months spent at sea and in the field away from family better than just $311 a month before taxes and a day off at end ex.