The Cost Of Treating Troops As Free Labor Providers

[daftandbarmy]

I would submit that if we provide a GoH for persons less than a top tier dignitary, the person in charge is certainly not those providing it for the foreign national. I highly doubt that any visiting dignitary's agenda gets altered because of a GoH. Those are nice sentiments but they don't hold up to reality.

There are plenty of people around that they should not be pulling already undermanned people off of supporting the infrastructure missions are relying on, so we can have a bunch of human manikins standing pretty for what ever foreign national VIP comes to town. This crap is high on the top ten list of why NDHQ is seen as dysfunctional.

Based on the bottom of the barrel we end up scraping to get people on those GoHs, I highly doubt the effect is as you imply as well.

If it's that bloody important that we have to overwork our limited staff, then I suggest they have justification to beef up the ceremonial units in the area until they can handle the load. Sending techs to do drill when there are real missions ongoing is a blatant waste of resources. If the powers that be argue about not having funding for the cost, we're already paying it in lost capability. Find a way to bill for it.

The other way to look at this duty is, of course, as a great honour for the troops who participate.

Why not share the duty around the brigades so that all troops have an opportunity to go to Ottawa and participate in national level activities?

I spoke to some of our troops who went to Ottawa for the Smokey Smith funeral, from the West Coast, and they clearly considered the event as one of the highlights of their careers.

 

[Edward Campbell]

I would submit that if we provide a GoH for persons less than a top tier dignitary, the person in charge is certainly not those providing it for the foreign national. I highly doubt that any visiting dignitary's agenda gets altered because of a GoH. Those are nice sentiments but they don't hold up to reality.

There are plenty of people around that they should not be pulling already undermanned people off of supporting the infrastructure missions are relying on, so we can have a bunch of human manikins standing pretty for what ever foreign national VIP comes to town. This crap is high on the top ten list of why NDHQ is seen as dysfunctional.

Based on the bottom of the barrel we end up scraping to get people on those GoHs, I highly doubt the effect is as you imply as well.

If it's that bloody important that we have to overwork our limited staff, then I suggest they have justification to beef up the ceremonial units in the area until they can handle the load. Sending techs to do drill when there are real missions ongoing is a blatant waste of resources. If the powers that be argue about not having funding for the cost, we're already paying it in lost capability. Find a way to bill for it.

If we're talking about Ottawa then I take issue with two of the four highlighted words: overworked and limited.

HQs in Ottawa are HUGE, compared to when I served (I retired almost 20 years ago) and they are beyond huge, they are morbidly obese when compared to the size of the fleets and field forces and what went before.

I know, I am 100% certain that some people are, indeed, overworked, but:

    1. Some ≠ all; and

    2. Some of the overwork is from doing useless, busy work.

Further, if the pictures I saw of the guard for the new MND is any indication then some people could use some time out of the office and in the gym.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

TB policy for charging other government departments for services rendered does not apply to labour.  In fact, it only covers incremental costs.  For example, if vehicles were required for a task, DND can charge an OGD for fuel, but not a rental fee for the vehicle (the government already owns it) nor wages for the people driving it or riding in it (they're already being paid by the government).

Coast Guard, tried to charge us the full daily cost of a 150' ship to do a site inspection, we were willing to pay extra OT and extra fuel. In the end we hired a smaller boat and the CCG ship sat at anchor doing nothing.

 

[c_canuk]

If we're talking about Ottawa then I take issue with two of the four highlighted words: overworked and limited.

HQs in Ottawa are HUGE, compared to when I served (I retired almost 20 years ago) and they are beyond huge, they are morbidly obese when compared to the size of the fleets and field forces and what went before.

No argument, but these parade taskings are MCpl and below, so you can probably figure out why it's a strain on those of us trying to support actual operations.

I know, I am 100% certain that some people are, indeed, overworked, but:

    1. Some ≠ all; and

    2. Some of the overwork is from doing useless, busy work.

Further, if the pictures I saw of the guard for the new MND is any indication then some people could use some time out of the office and in the gym.

Hence my comment about the GoH not having the effect that Chris Pook thought it should.

 

[Kirkhill]

No argument, but these parade taskings are MCpl and below, so you can probably figure out why it's a strain on those of us trying to support actual operations.

Hence my comment about the GoH not having the effect that Chris Pook thought it should.

Point taken.

I agree that the odds and sods approach does not result in the effect desired.

 

[dimsum]

Point taken.

I agree that the odds and sods approach does not result in the effect desired.

If most are MCpl and below, how about the folks on PAT in Borden/St-Jean/elsewhere within a few hours' travel of Ottawa?

 

[Kirkhill]

Point taken.

I agree that the odds and sods approach does not result in the effect desired.

This is more of the effect I was looking for - Minutes 2:00 to 4:00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5_pYOJnbZM

Sorry Tony - You've got me addicted to these guys.

 

[The Bread Guy]

This is more of the effect I was looking for - Minutes 2:00 to 4:00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5_pYOJnbZM

Sorry Tony - You've got me addicted to these guys.

At least SOME of them got to be in short-sleeve order in that heat  ;D

 

[Pieman]

There may be an infinite number of universes, but in none of them does it make sense to have extra people aimlessly wandering barracks hallways in the middle of the night.

Ha! That statement can be used in so many different contexts, I'm totally stealing it.

Many of the inefficiencies mentioned in this article I have experienced first hand.

Although one cannot put a price tag on it, perhaps there could be a 'man hour' budget imposed on the leadership. The budget must be managed to produce the most amount of work in the least amount of time. If a section is blasting through thousands of man hours accomplishing very little then there are some efficiency issues.

An example might be that troop A has 40 troops that have 50 hours a week allotted to each soldier. That's 2000 man hours to work with. So the Lt. gets and order to take the men on a 0800h weapons draw, and  8km ruck march. Then, say, clean the bay and service four vehicles until done. If he or the NCM leadership decide to have the troop show up two hours earlier they waste 80 man hours to have people stand around and do nothing. That kind of waste adds up quick. If they start running out of man hours then it should get the attention of higher up, who would be responsible for finding ways to do things more efficiently.

All easier said than done, I'm sure. But unless the amount of  time spent on duty is quantified in some manner there is no way to gauge it.

 

[Monsoon]

An example might be that troop A has 40 troops that have 50 hours a week allotted to each soldier. That's 2000 man hours to work with. So the Lt. gets and order to take the men on a 0800h weapons draw, and  8km ruck march. Then, say, clean the bay and service four vehicles until done. If he or the NCM leadership decide to have the troop show up two hours earlier they waste 80 man hours to have people stand around and do nothing. That kind of waste adds up quick. If they start running out of man hours then it should get the attention of higher up, who would be responsible for finding ways to do things more efficiently.

If we managed time like we manage budgets, we'd all be working 120-hour weeks through the month of March to avoid having our units disbanded.

 

[dapaterson]

If we managed time like we manage budgets, we'd all be working 120-hour weeks through the month of March to avoid having our units disbanded.

And blaming everything on PWGSC...

 

[jollyjacktar]

This is more of the effect I was looking for - Minutes 2:00 to 4:00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5_pYOJnbZM

Sorry Tony - You've got me addicted to these guys.

Wow, brings a whole new meaning to "run chicken run".  Love the bands, hell even the vets get into it too.  Efficient way to get your yearly PT test done as well as a parade. :nod:

 

[Kirkhill]

Wow, brings a whole new meaning to "run chicken run".  Love the bands, hell even the vets get into it too.  Efficient way to get your yearly PT test done as well as a parade. :nod:

Which, strangely enough, is the purpose of parades: to review the troops.

 

[Pieman]

If we managed time like we manage budgets, we'd all be working 120-hour weeks through the month of March to avoid having our units disbanded.

Sadly it's probably true.

 

[Kirkhill]

Wow, brings a whole new meaning to "run chicken run".  Love the bands, hell even the vets get into it too.  Efficient way to get your yearly PT test done as well as a parade. :nod:

Here's a random thought. Introduce the Passo di Corsa into the Canadian light battalions.  Hire the Bersaglieri band to lead route marches for the next three to six months.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Here's a random thought. Introduce the Passo di Corsa into the Canadian light battalions.  Hire the Bersaglieri band to lead route marches for the next three to six months.

And you thought marching between pipe and a Rifle Regiment was tough  ;D

 

[cavalryman]

Here's a random thought. Introduce the Passo di Corsa into the Canadian light battalions.  Hire the Bersaglieri band to lead route marches for the next three to six months.

Tis not the LIBs who need it.  Perhaps NDHQ could make better use of the Passo Di Corsa  [

 

[quadrapiper]

The other way to look at this duty is, of course, as a great honour for the troops who participate.

Why not share the duty around the brigades so that all troops have an opportunity to go to Ottawa and participate in national level activities?

I spoke to some of our troops who went to Ottawa for the Smokey Smith funeral, from the West Coast, and they clearly considered the event as one of the highlights of their careers.

Running with that, introduce it into the readiness cycle for those units suited by their rank mix and size to provide a suitable presence?

 

[Kirkhill]

And you thought marching between pipe and a Rifle Regiment was tough  ;D

A standing joke in the British army was "The Light Division: Late on parade". This would allow at least another coffee before having to leave for the saluting dais.

And cavalryman, following on from that thought - FUP a park'n'ride a couple of miles from Col By and then it is a simple matter of keeping up with the tuba player....

 

[Ostrozac]

Running with that, introduce it into the readiness cycle for those units suited by their rank mix and size to provide a suitable presence?

It's been tried, half-heartedly, in the past. I was on an opening of parliament when 3RCR provided the guard. The fact of the matter is that Petawawa views Ottawa ceremonial taskings as a burden not laid on other bases, and many of our other major bases are too far for road moves, making the cost of hotels and airlift excessive.

There has been some talk kicked about about having a standing Public Duties unit in the NCR -- the rotating task for the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier may be the first step toward this. And there would be no reason to shut down the clearly successful Army Reserve summer program -- thanks to the double fists of Posting Season and Summer Leave the Regular Force tends to lose a lot of capacity over the summer months.

On the whole, I think it's overdue. I think pulling Geo Techs and Comm Researchers off of their primary duty at short notice and putting them on parade, not because their current task is low priority, but because they are a Cpl/MCpl in the NCR is a silly way to allocate scarce resources. But a standing Public Duties unit would need infrastructure, and infrastructure in the NCR seems to be an ongoing drama.