Summer 2024: Rioting across UK cities

[daftandbarmy]

Parents can't come get them, might get arrested for their own outstanding warrants.

The ones that do get a visit from the IRA that night to find out why they were seen at the police station though, which is why the kids get a good kicking

 

[lenaitch]

We don't live in one of the major urban centres that the media likes to focus on (North Bay ON) but just about every employee at a fast food restaurant, gas station/c-store, box store and courier up here is South Asian. I don't know if they are TFW, students or what (we do have a university and college, as well as a private college). I was completely unaware that the area had such a large South Asian community.

I don't know what is chicken and what is egg; are they the only ones willing to put up with the hours and wages? Are they displacing others? Is a large chunk of the local 'white' similar age group on the street between opioid hits? Where we used to live closer to Toronto, a new chain fast food restaurant opened and the franchisee was South Asian. Every employee save for one was South Asian (and it was a very 'white bread' town). I've noticed a lot of the franchisees in other sectors are South Asian. I suspect there is a lot of 'hire your own' going on; which we 'white folk' were just as guilty of back in the day I suppose. I get the sense that a lot of 'your own' includes extended family.

 

[RangerRay]

I can only go by my observations, specifically in the early and mid 2000’s in northeastern BC.

At that time, there was an oil boom. In order to keep any labour, the fast food restaurants in town had to increase wages well above minimum wage and offer benefits to employees. Most fast food workers were white kids and adults who couldn’t or wouldn’t go to the oil field. Most people in town were white with some indigenous. There were more Africans there than I would have thought but they were there for the oil and gas companies. They may have been TFWs that had skills in low supply here.

I left in 2006 and I came back a couple years later for a visit and the difference was stark. The restaurants were fully staffed with Philippinos and South Asians. Not a single white kid to be seen. Add to that the O&G started to go into a downturn at that time. I think this was shortly after the government made it easier for companies to hire unskilled TFWs. I’m not sure how they were living in that high housing market at that time, but I’m sure they weren’t making more than minimum wage like the workers before them.

If the TFW program ended and employers were forced to raise their wages to attract labour, would Canadian-born workers with low skills go to those jobs, or would they now be viewed as undesirable “immigrant” jobs?

 

[The Bread Guy]

Speaking of TFW's, this from the U.N. ....

Canada's foreign worker program a 'breeding ground for contemporary slavery,' says UN report

Canada's Temporary Foreign Worker Program serves as a 'breeding ground for contemporary slavery,' according to a scathing UN report examining Canada's efforts to limit unfair labour.

www.ctvnews.ca

... with more than a bit of UN-speak in it (full report attached)

 

[Retired AF Guy]

I get that there are lots of kids not applying...or don't know how to apply well. Showing up with no resume, no tickets, a restrictive schedule for when you can work and demanding high wages...doesn't work.

But then I look at the 18 year old nephew who took a job at Walmart because they were the only one hiring....went and got all the standard safety tickets, busted his butt trying to find something else that offered either more hours than 25 hours a week or higher than minimum wage....5 months of searching in a town with lots of "help wanted" all over. He's not Filipino, not a 3rd year tradesman and doesn't have 20 years driving experience.
Luckily he starts next week as a swamper for a trucking outfit. Doesn't know the hours or wages yet but he knows he's still ahead from where he was.

There are lots of employers that are jerking folks around...and there are decent jobs for those willing to work. The challenge is making the contacts with the decent employers and the avenues of my youth - church, youth groups, etc. are basically gone with internet social networks replacing them. There's always been family ties and cultural ties whenever folks looked for work.

Just curious but what is a "swamper?"

 

[Brad Sallows]

If the TFW program ended and employers were forced to raise their wages to attract labour, would Canadian-born workers with low skills go to those jobs, or would they now be viewed as undesirable “immigrant” jobs?

The crux of the biscuit. The notion that "immigrants do jobs locals won't do" is inseparable from the side-effect that it amounts to a way to keep wages down. The idea that we should be attracting immigrants to achieve this is contemptible, regardless of the fact that in most cases it's easy to show that the immigrants' position has improved (better than life in the old country, even if short by Canadian standards). Labour scarcity tends to exert upward pressure on wages and benefits. Those are costs which will have to be passed on to consumers.

At the same time, life on the dole has to generally and noticeably be less comfortable than life off of it.

 

[AmmoTech90]

Just curious but what is a "swamper?"

General dogs body in an oil and gas yard/rig. Called that because a lot of their time is power washing the inside of water trucks, etc.

 

[daftandbarmy]

The crux of the biscuit. The notion that "immigrants do jobs locals won't do" is inseparable from the side-effect that it amounts to a way to keep wages down. The idea that we should be attracting immigrants to achieve this is contemptible, regardless of the fact that in most cases it's easy to show that the immigrants' position has improved (better than life in the old country, even if short by Canadian standards). Labour scarcity tends to exert upward pressure on wages and benefits. Those are costs which will have to be passed on to consumers.

At the same time, life on the dole has to generally and noticeably be less comfortable than life off of it.

As Canadians are aging out of the workforce at an increasingly alarming rate, the main issue is a declining population of employable 'locals'. There are not enough people to do the work, and there won't be a sudden emergence of AI at a rate that will take up the slack, hence the need for immigrants, and we're lucky to have them ...

Temporary foreign workers and international students have become an integral part of the labour force​

Canada is increasingly reliant on temporary foreign workers (TFWs) to fill labour shortage gaps. The number of TFWs (work permit holders on December 31 in each year) increased seven-fold from 111,000 in 2000 to 777,000 in 2021. The share of TFWs among all workers with T4 earnings rose from 2% in 2010 to 4% in 2019, and was particularly high in some of the lower-skilled sectors in 2019, such as agriculture (15%); accommodation and food services (10%); and administrative and support, waste management and remediation services (10%). TFWs were also overrepresented in some higher-skilled industries, such as professional, scientific, and technical services sector (6%); and information and cultural industries (5%).

The Daily — Immigration as a source of labour supply

Immigration has always been the driving force behind Canada's labour supply. But with job vacancies in late 2021 80% higher than before the COVID-19 pandemic and the working age population aging, high levels of immigration will be even more critical to the labour market.

www150.statcan.gc.ca

 

[dapaterson]

Canada can't rely on a steady stream of folks escaping North Dakota to provide underground labour on farms. The TFW program helps farms suppress labour costs and avoid developing mechanical solutions. Its expansion to suppress wages in urban areas as well is something government may make statements about, but will not likely address.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I wonder if all the businesses with help wanted signs that don’t ever seem to hire are just going through the motions of “look we tried, nobody applied (wink, wink)” so that they can then go down the TFW route?

 

[foresterab]

I wonder if all the businesses with help wanted signs that don’t ever seem to hire are just going through the motions of “look we tried, nobody applied (wink, wink)” so that they can then go down the TFW route?

There is some of that...look at how many "ads" are in small print but don't have details...run it for a couple of weeks and all of a sudden nobody applied so TFW

Then there are the games some larger operations are running....hire for one -> TFW -> move to a second location due to X reason.

I understand the need to get specialized knowledge. I don't see the need for waitresses, cashiers, and line cooks especially when you're laying off locals or not hiring them. And frankly...if a person can't live on the wage you're paying - based upon the single job you're offering (not working 3x jobs) - then maybe it's time to raise wages and/or costs instead of depressing your local economy and then wondering why nobody is going to your restaurant/business.

 

[dimsum]

And frankly...if a person can't live on the wage you're paying - based upon the single job you're offering (not working 3x jobs) - then maybe it's time to raise wages and/or costs instead of depressing your local economy and then wondering why nobody is going to your restaurant/business.

Add tipping culture to that too.

Yeah, tips means that you could make a ton more money than you would normally get. It also means that businesses can underpay claiming that tips will make up the difference.

The problem is what happens if a night is super slow and you end up losing money due to lack of tips?

 

[RangerRay]

There is some of that...look at how many "ads" are in small print but don't have details...run it for a couple of weeks and all of a sudden nobody applied so TFW

Then there are the games some larger operations are running....hire for one -> TFW -> move to a second location due to X reason.

I understand the need to get specialized knowledge. I don't see the need for waitresses, cashiers, and line cooks especially when you're laying off locals or not hiring them. And frankly...if a person can't live on the wage you're paying - based upon the single job you're offering (not working 3x jobs) - then maybe it's time to raise wages and/or costs instead of depressing your local economy and then wondering why nobody is going to your restaurant/business.

I have a hard time seeing an employer being altruistic and offer higher wages when they can easily get cheap labour via the TFW program. Until that program is scrapped or scaled back so that employers can only access it if they can show they can’t find the skilled labour within the country, employers will continue to use a program that intervenes in the labour market.

It’s a fallacy that business people are free-enterprisers. Most, if not all, will welcome state intervention if it benefits them, whether it’s by preventing competition, giving them access to cheap labour or handing out taxpayer lucre for keeping the lights on.

 

[lenaitch]

As Canadians are aging out of the workforce at an increasingly alarming rate, the main issue is a declining population of employable 'locals'. There are not enough people to do the work, and there won't be a sudden emergence of AI at a rate that will take up the slack, hence the need for immigrants, and we're lucky to have them ...

Couple that with the sea of lost souls cluttering downtowns across the land who's brains (and employability) are fried by opioids. Anecdotally, I don't see a lot of visible minorities in those crowds.

 

[Brad Sallows]

It’s a fallacy that business people are free-enterprisers. Most, if not all, will welcome state intervention if it benefits them, whether it’s by preventing competition, giving them access to cheap labour or handing out taxpayer lucre for keeping the lights on.

They are free-enterprisers, but part of free enterprise is exploiting legitimate advantages. If you want to see whether business people are free-enterprisers, end subsidies and policies which distort plain ordinary market functioning. I expect most businesses will adapt and remain, not disappear.

 

[childs56]

Just curious but what is a "swamper?"

Essentially an apprentice driver/picker operator.
They get to learn how to properly chain a truck up. Learn to use rigging for securing loads/ lifting loads.
Cleans maintains the equipment as required.
Scratches the commander driver behind his ears so he doesn't have to.
Move boards cribbing around as required on site.

All in all a great way to start out in the trucking world. Gets to learn how all the trucks and trailers work, how to secure/lift loads etc prior to becoming a driver/operator themselves.

Should be decent money but long hours and erratic ones at best.