Rumour regarding Medium Lift

[Fishbone Jones]

Waaay out of my lane now, but if memory serves, Griffons - with armour and door guns - were lifting (on average) 4 pax in Bosnia.   That's with all their fighting order, weapons, etc...   Lots of lifts to get even a platoon moved.

TR, I'll join you out here . Given your statement and the air density in Afghanistan, especially around Kabul and the other mountain areas, I'd say they'd be hard pressed to even get airborne, even with four guys. Just a guess on my part. Maybe some of the rotorheads can clear it up for us.

 

[mcnutt_p]

TR, I'll join you out here . Given your statement and the air density in Afghanistan, especially around Kabul and the other mountain areas, I'd say they'd be hard pressed to even get airborne, even with four guys.

I remember seeing on the History Channel that the Russians were operating Hinds around Kabul during their war there. They were operating these Hinds fully loaded and with an infantry section. Doesn't the Hind weight more than the Griffon?

McNutt

 

[aesop081]

I remember seeing on the History Channel that the Russians were operating Hinds around Kabul during their war there. They were operating these Hinds fully loaded and with an infantry section. Doesn't the Hind weight more than the Griffon?

McNutt

And how much power do the Mi-24's engines provide compared to the CH-146 ?   Have you considered power-to-weight ratios in making your statement ?   Do you know anything about flying ?

EDIT:

Just because you are going to ask

Bell 412 ( aka CH-146)  max T/O weight 11 600 lbs, 1800 shp P&W turbo twin pac

Mi-24 Hind "A" ( from jane's) max T/O weoght 24 251 lbs, two 2225 shp TV3-117 turboshafts

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

I remember seeing on the History Channel that the Russians were operating Hinds around Kabul during their war there. They were operating these Hinds fully loaded and with an infantry section. Doesn't the Hind weight more than the Griffon?

McNutt

I've made many flights around Kabul/Bagram in Blackhawks, both Turkish and American...no comparison capability-wise with a Griffon as aesop081 points out.  Both the Blackhawk and the Hind are much more powerful aircraft.

 

[mcnutt_p]

Do you know anything about flying ?

Know I do not know anything about flying except are passing over a wing creates lift.

McNutt

 

[Cloud Cover]

And how much power do the Mi-24's engines provide compared to the CH-146 ?   Have you considered power-to-weight ratios in making your statement ?   Do you know anything about flying ?

Where is the air intake located on the Mi-24? IIRC, the exhaust air signature was the Mi-24's downfall in A'Stan?

 

[aesop081]

Where is the air intake located on the Mi-24? IIRC, the exhaust air signature was the Mi-24's downfall in A'Stan?

the air intake for the engines on all Mi-24 models are located above and behind the cockpit.  The engine exausts are locate about at the middle of the main fuselage at the top

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

Hey, us Army guys still need sorting out!  ;D

We're after an educated estimate of a Griffon's troop carrying ability in Kandahar, bearing in mind that we're already looking at daytime highs of around 45 degrees (C) and altitudes of 1500+ metres (more on operations)...  Given the theatre, the aircraft would mount armour and door guns...

 

[Sf2]

I'll chime in here as the Griffon SME.  It all depends on how far you have to go, where, and how hot it is.

Here in Canada, we can take 12 troops for a short distance if we wanted to.  Standard fuel of 2 1/2 hrs.....8 guys with kit.  In the mountains at 44 celcius, probably not too many guys, 4-6 maybe, with less fuel, 1 hour worth at the most.

Door guns don't add much weight, but the armour does, especially the floor panels for the aft cabin.  Another issue isn't just power, its tail rotor effectiveness/authority.  Even the blackhawks and jolly greens are having problems over there, running out of left pedal (tail rotor auth to the non flyers).  That's why the chinooks are being used so extensively over there.

Griffon max gross is 11,900.

 

[aesop081]

Griffon max gross is 11,900.

Yeah...i figured that the publication i was using was a little off.

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

I'll chime in here as the Griffon SME.   It all depends on how far you have to go, where, and how hot it is.

Here in Canada, we can take 12 troops for a short distance if we wanted to.    Standard fuel of 2 1/2 hrs.....8 guys with kit.   In the mountains at 44 celcius, probably not too many guys, 4-6 maybe, with less fuel, 1 hour worth at the most.

Sounds like I wasn't far off...  Throw in support weapons, ammo, rations (if reqr), water, etc. and I don't think we'll be conducting many air assaults from Griffons in Kandahar.  Explains a few things, including the reasoning behind this "rumour" about Sea Kings.

Having said this, Griffons as a liaison or observation platform would obviously be very valuable.

Thanks for the info...

Cheers,

TR

 

[JackD]

Hello! Not being a helicopter pilot or such - nor even a current member of the armed forces but having flown in the Iroquois, Kiowa and the Chinook and later the Hughes product ( as a geologist), I still have an interest in the beasts - and indeed the Canadian Armed Forces. I was reading the Flight International website today and they made mention of Chinook D's being transferred to Indonesia. If that can be done so rapidly, why can't the Canadian government work so fast and sign up for this program - a simple transfer. I note also that the first of Australia's "tiger" armed scout helicopters was delivered - how long was that program from start to finish - 5 years? It seems the problem is the Ottawa mentality - and by that I don't just mean the Liberal government, but the bureaucratic mind-set. So what would you better informed members of this web-community suggest for medium lift, light and for scout duties - and in what numbers?

http://www.flightinternational.com/Articles/2005/07/19/Navigation/197/200350/Heavylift+mission+surge+may+lead+to+Chinook+growth+and.html

http://www.flightinternational.com/Articles/2005/07/19/Navigation/197/200348/First+local+Tiger+roars+into+Australian+Army+service.html

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

Just a thought, but would it not make sense to hand over the Griffons en masse to domestic security agencies as part of the justification to obtain proper medium lift helicopter?

Specifically, give a majority to whatever agency is doing border patrol/surveillance these days, and the remainder to local first responder units to be used for Emergency Response as part of a larger initiative to improve our Homeland Security readiness?

Additional thought:  Have one (or two) on standby in each of the major cities with 10 pre-filled buckets of anti-radiation treatment (similar to a firefighting bucket) to be distributed over any urban area where a radiological has been detonated.  It would seem extremely prudent in that after-the-fact, if unprepared you'd be screwed whilst having this capability might in fact deter Al-Qaeda/Al-Qaeda affiliates from attempting such an attack here....



Matthew.  ??? 

 

[KevinB]

IIRC the guestimate by a 408 jockey was 500lbs of useful cargo in a Grif in Afghan - with doorguns and armour at that Alt.

So two troops with some kit.

Or One troop with his full kit.  I think it has a ZERO CSAR capacity in that role.


I made a joke about 408 doing Combat resupply in K'har in another thread -- the Loadie tosses you a 10rd stripper clip and says more on the next lift...

Better off sponging -60 rides from the yanks...

 

[Slim]

IIRC the guestimate by a 408 jockey was 500lbs of useful cargo in a Grif in Afghan - with doorguns and armour at that Alt.

Better off sponging -60 rides from the yanks...

Is there any reason (other than political of course) why we can't pick up some UH-60's ourselves? Pardon me if its already been explained elsewhere.

Slim

 

[aesop081]

Is there any reason (other than political of course) why we can't pick up some UH-60's ourselves? Pardon me if its already been explained elsewhere.

Slim

Ask yourself where the Blackhawks are manufactured ( or aren't) and it'll come to you  ;D

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

Ask yourself where the Blackhawks are manufactured ( or aren't) and it'll come to you   ;D

Quebec?  What do I win?



Matthew.  ;D

 

[Slim]

Ask yourself where the Blackhawks are manufactured ( or aren't) and it'll come to you   ;D

(thinks hard...lots of smoke)...Hmmm...Its just not coming to me at all. ???... ;D

You would think that in this time of need they coujld just put the foolishness on the shelf and rent or buy some off the shelf stuff with a good availability of parts...Is that the only reason?

Anyone else?

 

[Sf2]

ChinookD is too old.....G model is where its at.

It would be silly to give away all the Griffons in favor of the med/heavy lift chopper.  The Griffon is very good at domestic ops, as well as overseas logistical/C&L type stuff - low noise signature (for a helicopter), fits into smaller confined areas, relatively cheap to operate and fly.

The Griffon should definately be kept to compliment the upcoming helo project.....

 

[Sam69]

The Griffon should definately be kept to compliment the upcoming helo project.....

"Wow, that's one hell of a project charter you have there. Have you lost weight? You are one good looking project!!"


>
Sorry... couldn't hold it in!

Sam