Royal Canadian Air Force headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general

[Journeyman]

The USN took over Camp Lemonnier and the Chinese have a naval base in country.

Relevance?  Djibouti is even further away from Mali than the previously-mocked Uganda.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

I lived through that. For Op ATTENTION Roto 1, someone decided just before silly week that there wasn't enough reservists deploying. We had started predeployment training in September (for the Force Pro guys) and Mid October for everyone else. Individuals who had just done 6-8 weeks of predeployment training were told they weren't going, just before Christmas, and we had to scramble to train a bunch of reservists in January for a mid-Feb deployment. They even had a hard time finding reservists to fill the slots, because all the ones that wanted to deploy had put their names in and gotten the tour.

I also think its a completely different situation to equate a gender quota to a quota for reservists. No male in the CAF should think they are entitled to a tour over a woman, and if they do, they shouldn't be in the CAF. Quotas for reservists are arbitrary numbers and in no way involve discrimination on Charter grounds.

Ahhh yes, I remember this time as well.  My Battalion deployed a grand total of two officers and three NCOs on Op ATTENTION over a three year period.  We supposedly had 900+ people over there, I have no idea where they all came from. You couldn't buy a tour during that time period and had to have some connections to the Div HQ to get a spot.

 

[Edward Campbell]

I’m going to try and be an optimist about the gender issue. Is it not true that the assholes the Griffons will hopefully gun down or the Chinooks will deliver in terms of smoking barrel hell, are the ones that need the gender education. I think there might be something satisfying in having CAF women have a big part in that. And, to be very clear, I wish no harm or bad luck whatsoever to come to any member of the Armed forces, I fully expect that the same expectations of selfless, non gender specific sacrifice be expected of same. Nobody on civvie street gave two shits when my friends got blown into a pink mist after their caskets rolled down the 401, will the citizenry we have feel the same just because of gender. I think “we can and must do better”. (#slaytoo!)

It’s time to step up ( Times Up!)  what’s between the legs should not matter.* Again, to be very clear, I expect the cry baby Mr Dressup to be respectful of the sacrifice AND the delivery of death to assholes that need a good killing. In fact, I would like to see the words “Bitchin Ride” chalked on a Griffon.

* edit: but what’s clearly in the mind of our PM apparently much of the time is exactly that.

I agree!

I served during the era (1960s to the mid 1990s) when we "integrated" the armed forces by welcoming women into most roles.

I commanded units (1970s (Middle East) an 1980s (Canada and Europe) when women appeared in increasing numbers.

Not all women did well in all occupations ... there are a few places (combat engineers, infantryman, gun number, loader-operator (do we still call them that?) and lineman) where stamina and superior body mass (muscle) make a soldier "better" but we have all seen that some women can excel in all those jobs, too. I was told, by a scientist, that women are, actually, stronger than men ~ broadly ~ when one measures the sort of "strength" that some jobs require: high performance fighter pilot was the one he was studying and he concluded that the "average" woman was "stronger," in the way that a jet fighter pilot needs to be, than the "average" man.

Yes we had both dinosaurs amongst the men and self-entitled cry-babies amongst the women ... just enough of each to be memorable. I recall the fuss I had to endure when, in the Middle East, I decided that it was an unnecessarily long hike from the female quarters to the places where most of my soldiers, male and female, worked and to our (better in every possible way) canteen and mess hall. I talked to some of the junior NCOs, male and female, and in short order we had a female "wing" in our barracks ~ one large, shared washroom, several rooms and a hallway door not locked!) for privacy. The door had a sign "Please respect our privacy ... knock and wait," I'm told it was all that was ever needed. I got push back from some male and female officers and WOs ... but nothing I (and my chum, the major nursing sister) could not bat down, easily. I was happier because my soldiers, male and female, were happier. The guys now knew that the ladies were not getting anything "special" just because they were female and the women felt "equal" in yet another way.

In general, and I'm thinking of RV-81 now, most females were able to do most jobs as well as most men, some females did some jobs better ... in the Middle East and in Canada and Europe I had super good luck with three or four, successive, senior crypto custodian NCOs. It's a mentally demanding job and it's one that sometimes requires the person to "correct" more senior NCOs and officers, including senior staff officers, for misusing crypto or registered materiel ... the custodian NCO must ALWAYS be 100% right, it's a tough job. I had a series of great NCOs ~ and I escaped censure for years and years because of them ~ who were ALL female ... to the point where, before arriving in one unit, I asked the career manager to post out a man I knew and didn't respect and replace him with a lady who had worked for me before. Incoming COs usually get one such request, they often use it for e.g. a sergeant major or adjutant; I took my "posting gift" at the rank of sergeant/WO (I wanted her promoted to WO and posted in before I got there).   

Women are not better than men, nor are they worse ... maybe, in some small way, the CF can help some other countries to see that.

 

[Altair]

I agree!

I served during the era (1960s to the mid 1990s) when we "integrated" the armed forces by welcoming women into most roles.

I commanded units (1970s (Middle East) an 1980s (Canada and Europe) when women appeared in increasing numbers.

Not all women did well in all occupations ... there are a few places (combat engineers, infantryman, gun number, loader-operator (do we still call them that?) and lineman) where stamina and superior body mass (muscle) make a soldier "better" but we have all seen that some women can excel in all those jobs, too. I was told, by a scientist, that women are, actually, stronger than men ~ broadly ~ when one measures the sort of "strength" that some jobs require: high performance fighter pilot was the one he was studying and he concluded that the "average" woman was "stronger," in the way that a jet fighter pilot needs to be, than the "average" man.

Yes we had both dinosaurs amongst the men and self-entitled cry-babies amongst the women ... just enough of each to be memorable. I recall the fuss I had to endure when, in the Middle East, I decided that it was an unnecessarily long hike from the female quarters to the places where most of my soldiers, male and female, worked and to our (better in every possible way) canteen and mess hall. I talked to some of the junior NCOs, male and female, and in short order we had a female "wing" in our barracks ~ one large, shared washroom, several rooms and a hallway door not locked!) for privacy. The door had a sign "Please respect our privacy ... knock and wait," I'm told it was all that was ever needed. I got push back from some male and female officers and WOs ... but nothing I (and my chum, the major nursing sister) could not bat down, easily. I was happier because my soldiers, male and female, were happier. The guys now knew that the ladies were not getting anything "special" just because they were female and the women felt "equal" in yet another way.

In general, and I'm thinking of RV-81 now, most females were able to do most jobs as well as most men, some females did some jobs better ... in the Middle East and in Canada and Europe I had super good luck with three or four, successive, senior crypto custodian NCOs. It's a mentally demanding job and it's one that sometimes requires the person to "correct" more senior NCOs and officers, including senior staff officers, for misusing crypto or registered materiel ... the custodian NCO must ALWAYS be 100% right, it's a tough job. I had a series of great NCOs ~ and I escaped censure for years and years because of them ~ who were ALL female ... to the point where, before arriving in one unit, I asked the career manager to post out a man I knew and didn't respect and replace him with a lady who had worked for me before. Incoming COs usually get one such request, they often use it for e.g. a sergeant major or adjutant; I took my "posting gift" at the rank of sergeant/WO (I wanted her promoted to WO and posted in before I got there).   

Women are not better than men, nor are they worse ... maybe, in some small way, the CF can help some other countries to see that.

Good post.

 

[dimsum]

I was told, by a scientist, that women are, actually, stronger than men ~ broadly ~ when one measures the sort of "strength" that some jobs require:

Women are not better than men, nor are they worse ... maybe, in some small way, the CF can help some other countries to see that.

Not sure if intentional, but well-played nonetheless. 

I totally agree with the rest of the post.  I also would never wish the job of Crypto Custodian on my worst enemy.

 

[Jarnhamar]

[quote author=E.R. Campbell]

Women are not better than men, nor are they worse ... maybe, in some small way, the CF can help some other countries to see that.
[/quote]

I'm not so sure about whether it's going to be a teachable moment or whatever that saying is.

The thing is it's not like other countries don't deploy women overseas.  In Afghanistan our allies deployed a fair number of women.My C/Ss Appache over-watch was more often times than not a female pilot. Fair number of hummer gunners and drivers in and around KAF I seen were female.  European countries had a lot of females deployed. Alot of tough no-nonsense women. We're hardly pioneers at this and the only one doing it.

So would the intent then be to show African countries that women are just as good as men? By the simple act of deploying a large number of them? Is that actually going to prove a point to them? Are they going to care that X% of members Canada deployed is female?

Are we going to harm unit integrity when positions are outsourced to fill a gender-quota? Say a unit has to pull in members from 3 or 4 other units to meet a goal, if that's the case.  What happens when it's the losing units turn deploying and deploys the same women out on back to back tours. Will members become burned out when we try and keep up the numbers?  It's pretty small now, 250 pers, but it's not hard to imagine identity-based deployments becoming the norm with this government.

:Tin-Foil-Hat:

 

[dimsum]

Are we going to harm unit integrity when positions are outsourced to fill a gender-quota? Say a unit has to pull in members from 3 or 4 other units to meet a goal, if that's the case.  What happens when it's the losing units turn deploying and deploys the same women out on back to back tours. Will members become burned out when we try and keep up the numbers?  It's pretty small now, 250 pers, but it's not hard to imagine identity-based deployments becoming the norm with this government.

:Tin-Foil-Hat:

That's a good point. 

 

[Altair]

That's a good point.

It probably has to go hand in hand with increasing the percentage of women in uniform.

 

[Furniture]

It probably has to go hand in hand with increasing the percentage of women in uniform.

In the right trades at the right training and rank level, and at exactly the right time... While I think it won't turn into a serious problem, recruiting isn't going to solve it any time soon.

 

[Kat Stevens]

DAPS v2.0 on the horizon.

 

[Blackadder1916]

. . .

So would the intent then be to show African countries that women are just as good as men? By the simple act of deploying a large number of them? Is that actually going to prove a point to them? Are they going to care that X% of members Canada deployed is female?

There's probably no one on these means who can delve into the mind of the PM and determine his true intent.  However, I suspect that that a significant part of his process (whether right, wrong or loony) is to show "Canadians" that women are just as good as men.  Providing an example to Africans would probably be an off-shoot; if it helps - fine, but if not - who cares, they don't vote in Canadian elections.

Why would he need to show Canadians that females are just as good as men in the military?  Aren't all occupations open to women?  Okay, sure, but, though there are an increasing number of women reaching (or getting within reach of) GOFO ranks, what is the likelihood of seeing a female being a contender for command of any of the L1s in the near future?  Yes, there may be a quota for females in this upcoming Africa mission, but it would not surprise me to see that the important (read visible) quotas will be for the commanders.  By filling the senior slots (just enough so that it's not looking like they are synchronizing cycles) they provide that added boost to one's career profile so that they may have an advantage when it comes time to select for other senior jobs/rank.  This of course, would be primarily in the TH element of the mission as well as the overall contingent comd; the medical side, gender imbalance at the top is not so much an issue.

 

[dimsum]

Side track, but would the SAR Griffon pers be potentially tapped to do this?  Obviously a different skill set, but is it something that can be taught on a quick OTU or similar?

 

[Good2Golf]

Side track, but would the SAR Griffon pers be potentially tapped to do this?  Obviously a different skill set, but is it something that can be taught on a quick OTU or similar?

Highly doubtful.  National SAR (yellow helo) folks are very quick to point out to green (and black) helo folks that they have significantly different skill sets.  It should follow logically that peace-time administrative search and rescue skills and experience would not be very applicable to integrated armed helicopter operations in an area with an extant Al Qaeda-aligned terrorist force.

:2c:

Regards
G2G

 

[Journeyman]

.... to integrated armed helicopter operations in an area with an extant Al Qaeda-aligned terrorist force.

Hang on.....so you're saying it's not  peacekeeping?! 



Well, at least we know where "Uganda" came from:

Sajjan and Freeland also said they're getting closer to deploying a C-130 Hercules aircraft for tactical support in Entebbe, Uganda, which was promised back in November during a peacekeeping conference in Vancouver.

...eventually.        LINK

 

[Kat Stevens]

Uganda didn't enjoy it last time a C 130 landed at Entebbe  ;D

 

[MarkOttawa]

Meanwhile is this this unit pledged by the PM from Nov. 2017 ever going to be formed and then deployed anywhere?

Canadian contributions to United Nations peace support operations
...
Canada is a strong supporter of United Nations (UN) peacekeeping and will continue to play an important role by contributing high-end capabilities and specialized training...

The Canadian Armed Forces will make the following military capabilities available...

• A Quick Reaction Force that includes approximately 200 personnel and accompanying equipment...

https://pm.gc.ca/eng/news/2017/11/15/canadian-contributions-united-nations-peace-support-operations

Mark
Ottawa


[/list]

 

[Altair]

Hang on.....so you're saying it's not  peacekeeping?! 



Well, at least we know where "Uganda" came from:...eventually.        LINK

Like I said, it was better to wait until monday.

Not all leaks are accurate.

 

[Good2Golf]

Uganda didn't enjoy it last time a C 130 landed at Entebbe  ;D

 

[jollyjacktar]

Listening to the Evan Solomon radio talk show on the way home just now, he had Senator Romeo Delaire on by phone.

The Senator was of the opinion in this case, sending the birds (on both counts) was a good move with bang for the buck to be had at a lower risk than ground forces.  The aircraft will provide a needed support element and allow crews to gain experience.  As for female participation, he said that wrt child soldiers, females bring pisitive capabilities to the table abd thus are a force multiplier.  His previous concerns for our participation in Mali have been soothed to a great extent.  So, his  :2c:

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I don't think it's anything to do with deploying female members,  I don't have a problem with that. They are qualified and do their jobs well.

Mali is a dangerous shit hole, it is the place for qualified people to be.

It is not the place for virtue signalling to the world what a feminist you are.

People should be picked for their qualification and for their ability to operate under extreme conditions.

Not because they are female and available.

We have been trying for years to integrate females into a family that doesn't have the biases of outside civilians. A team member, no matter sex, age, colour or religion. We are mostly blind to those things.

Now the PM is out there defining them as a separate group again. Much as he has done with most other groups in Canada