Rifles for Rangers

[Bearpaw]

Thanks for pointing that out---I did a small Google search on bolt-action rifles but did not bring that one up. 
If the Isapore 2A/2A1 rifle, which is essentially the same as the old one except for the NATO standard calibre, is available, I would think that it is a "no-brainer" to acquire them from India.  They should be fairly cheap---probably 25% of the price of the Mausers.  There are not too many choices at hand if we really want a NATO standard 7.62mm bolt-action rifle.

Bearpaw

 

[geo]

Question is.... do we really need a 7.62mm or .303cal round for our Rangers ?

the 5.56mm /.22230 has been in use up north for a long time. The Inuit hunters who compose the majority of the Rangers are quite comfortable with the calibre.  The ammo is readily available - without even having recourse of shipping our own stock up north every summer.

Possibly / probably, 5.56 NATO standard is the route to go

 

[mudgunner49]

Question is.... do we really need a 7.62mm or .303cal round for our Rangers ?

the 5.56mm /.22230 has been in use up north for a long time. The Inuit hunters who compose the majority of the Rangers are quite comfortable with the calibre.  The ammo is readily available - without even having recourse of shipping our own stock up north every summer.

Possibly / probably, 5.56 NATO standard is the route to go

No kidding!!!  I was amazed that one of the guys in Moosonee was going to hunt polar bear with a .222 and when I asked him how he thought it would work he just smiled and said "No problem.  I just get real close and when the dogs distract him I will shoot him inthe ear..."

Crazy.


blake

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Question is.... do we really need a 7.62mm or .303cal round for our Rangers ?

the 5.56mm /.22230 has been in use up north for a long time. The Inuit hunters who compose the majority of the Rangers are quite comfortable with the calibre.  The ammo is readily available - without even having recourse of shipping our own stock up north every summer.

Possibly / probably, 5.56 NATO standard is the route to go

Are you sure it's the same ammo? I just fired .243, the case is bigger than .308.

 

[TCBF]

Are you sure it's the same ammo? I just fired .243, the case is bigger than .308.

- If so, length only, and not by much  Reason: Same cartridge case - to start with.

T65E3:
1952 .308 Winchester
1954  7.62mm X 51 mm NATO
1955 .243 Winchester (.308 necked down to 6mm)
1955  .358 Winchester (.308 necked uo to .35)
1958 7 mm '08 (.308 necked down to 7 mm - a "Wildcat")
1960s 6.5 '08 (.308 necked down to 6.5 mm - various "Wildcat" (non-SAAMI Std) cartridges)
1980 7 mm-08 Remington (standardization of 7mm-08)
1996 6.5-08 A Square and..
1997 .260 Remington (standardization of a 6.5 '08)
2006 .338 Federal

Enjoy!

 

[1feral1]

Hello to all,

Most provinces have a mininum .24 calibre for hunting big game, and thats SP, not ball. I don't know about the territories.

To the best of my knowledge ball is illegal to hunt big game with, regardless of your ethnic background (european or native), all for humane purposes. At least it was when I left in 95. I am a former big game hunter from the early 1970s onwards to not so long before I left.

Happy trails/days,

OWDU

 

[geo]

when I spent time up north in the late 70s/ early 80s, the Winchester "super 22s" (5.56) became very popular with the local natives - 303s and 308s sorta faded away after that.  5.56 was great for hunting seals, fox & average sized critters out on the tundra... a little less so with the Polar bears.

(note that you don't have to outrun the bear.... just outrun the guy who is running next to you > )

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Hello to all,

Most provinces have a mininum .24 calibre for hunting big game, and thats SP, not ball. I don't know about the territories.

To the best of my knowledge ball is illegal to hunt big game with, regardless of your ethnic background (european or native), all for humane purposes. At least it was when I left in 95. I am a former big game hunter from the early 1970s onwards to not so long before I left.

Happy trails/days,

OWDU

Using ball for hunting is a provincial pervue. Ethics (and ethnics) aside, Ontario has no law banning the use of ball for hunting.

 

[MG34]

It doesn't matter the caliber or type of weapon issued to the Rangers.Their weapons are issued in order for them to accomplish their assigned mission, NOT hunting. The ammunition issued to them is for maintenance of skills, and for the accomplishment of their mission if assigned one, not shooting game.
Their personal preferences with regards to hunting calibers are about as irelavant as any soldier serving south of 60 with regards to the weapon issued them by the CF. If the Ranger's personal weapons are replaced (not likely) it will be up to the government of the day to decide the status of the Rangers and their issued weapons.
 

 

[geo]

MG34
There is no argument that the gov't and only the gov't will decide on what type of Kit will be utilised by the Rangers.
The Enfield currently used by them is an excellent and adequate weapon for them to use while on patrol...
The rifle and ammo are provided to them and they are expected to maintain their shooting proficiency throughout the year.
They are permitted to use their service rifle for hunting.  There are no regulations barring them from such an activity.

However, the 303 imperial it chambers is outdated.  Although stockpiled by the CF at Ranger detachments, you might not find any in some northern communities that do not have detachments.... VS having the option of walking into the local "Northern Stores" outlet & picking up a couple of boxes.

 

[MG34]

.303 British (Imperial is a brand name from a now defunct Canadian ammunition company), is possibly one of the most common calibers in Canada,especially in the rural and northern communities. It is also quite common world wide, so I doubt very much there would be a shortage of ammunition except in the case of  incompetent or very unknowledgeable  supply/local procurement pers.
  The point I'm making is that hunting is not the primary task of these rifles and ammunition, yes they are used for these activities but the weapons and ammunition provided by the Crown are for the local protection of Ranger Pers while performing their duties. This makes all the useless talk of hunting regulations and ammo choices for game moot and contributing nothing to the topic at hand.

 

[TCBF]

- The IVI .303 Issued to Rangers is not the old DA/DAQ/DAL/DI etc Cdn Mark VII 174 grain ball.  It is new brass "IVI 303 British" topped with a 215 grain round nose similar to the old Dominion/Imperial 215 grain KKSP ("Kling-Kore Soft Point").

- I suppose the theory is that if they are going to hunt with it, it might as well be hunting ammo.  Heavy bullets moving at medium velocity are designed to take heavy game at medium range. Seal ammo it ain't. 

 

[1feral1]

Ah, thanks for sharing. I still figured they were getting some type of ball/FMJ.

 

[TCBF]

Ah, thanks for sharing. I still figured they were getting some type of ball/FMJ.

- The downside is that the new stuff has good curb appeal - yardsale-wise - and you may find brown twenty round boxes of it in your local firearms emporium with a $19.95 pricetag on it.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

- The downside is that the new stuff has good curb appeal - yardsale-wise - and you may find brown twenty round boxes of it in your local firearms emporium with a $19.95 pricetag on it.

$26.95 for 180gr softpoints at Cdn tire. 

 

[daftandbarmy]

In order for us to be able to store our weapons at home, they have to be bolt action, apparently. Some of us have asked about FNs, C7s and the like, and that was one of the reasons we heard. the FN would be great, but we'd have to keep them locked up somewhere. Most of us have had a familiarization on the C7, but we'll never be issued them.

The Norwegian Home Guard are issued G3s and MG3s. One guy who invited me to dinner at his place proudly showed me his nicely oiled MG3, with 4 liners of 7.62 link, casually propped in the corner of his hallway cupboard. They gave him as much ammo as he needed tro stay in tip top form as a gunner. He practised in a local quarry. I was told by the local commander that there were never any problems with the troops abusing these apparently lax weapon handling practises becasue they all took their jobs deadly seriously.

Now, that was a system put in place on the assumption that a Soviet Airborne Division might drop in for lunch withoput reserving ahead but, if other countries heavily arm their 'home guards' with current weapons, we certainly can too. We just need to start taking the whole thing a bit more seriously now that most of the first world will be heading to our more remote regions to stake oil claims.

 

[MG34]

As much as I would like to see the Rangers armed like that, it would be a hard sell as the sheeple in Canada are trained from birth it seems to fear any sort of firearm.

 

[Loch Sloy!]

I have spent some time in Nunavut and virtually all the hunters I saw carried .223 (5.56mm) rifles for hunting virtually everything, including Tundra Grizzly.

I would imagine that the Inuit would be very happy to issued a 5.56mm weapon, which is what they seem to prefer anyway.

I would like to see them issued with C7s, perhaps some of the old carry handle ones we're currently giving to the ANA. We could replace the selector with a semi auto only trigger pack if that's a concern.

However, Northern communities do have some serious social issues and it wouldn't be great press for the CF if a ranger weapon was used inappropriately... maybe they could be stored in the Ranger detachment and signed out for patrols and hunting?

 

[daftandbarmy]

However, Northern communities do have some serious social issues and it wouldn't be great press for the CF if a ranger weapon was used inappropriately... maybe they could be stored in the Ranger detachment and signed out for patrols and hunting?

Every Innuit hunter seems to own at least 7 rilfes already, ranging from .22cal to .450 cal (for whales). I don't know if a few C7s added to the mix would cause that much more of a problem.

 

[TCBF]

- I think we should give them a rifle allowance: so much a month to purchase, maintain and feed a rifle meeting the type/calibre/accuracy standards we set.  Allow them the flexibility to choose from a list of commercial rifles and calibres and set their marksmanship standards to Extreme Spread of a group and a 'cold barrel - one shot' application at a fixed range.

- We would be better served with them carrying a rifle they LIKE to shoot all of the time.

"Beware the man who own's only one rifle - he probably knows how to shoot it."