Rifles for Rangers

[edgar]

Are there any Rangers, or weapons techs who support them on the forum? (Or decision-makers who procure for them, I guess)

This page http://www.sfu.ca/casr/mp-enfield.htm became a lot more interesting to me when my dad gave me his old enfield. I wonder what the experts think of reconditioning these rifles. My own has rarely been fired but much neglected (remember when rifles just hung there on the wall and nobody thought it strange).

Given that 7.62 is army standard and .303 not so much, would it be cheaper to just buy a new rifle? Or do the different rounds all cost around the same?
Used to be .303 was cheap like borscht but those war surplus crates are long gone.

I need to replace the stock anyway because it was butchered by someone sporty with short arms. It kicks like the proverbial Chuck Norris. is a McMillan-type stock and a weaver rail grafted onto an old but free rifle cheaper than just buying a new .308?

Answers are useful not just for me but for the Rangers as well I hope.

Thanks

 

[McG]

That article seems to use calibre as a cover excuse to switch to a fiberglass stock.  You'll note that all options suggest fiberglass to cut weight (without mentioning that weight is a problem) while they only give a half effort to push the 7.62 mm (despite that being the only potential concern mentioned).

At the same time, if I had to defend against an angry polar bear (and this is one of the tasks the rifle is used for), I wonder if I would want a 7.62 mm or a .303.

 

[KevinB]

ballsitically .308/7.62x51 is the same as .303 Brit and/or 30-06.

  In fact given the current load selection - the .308 will edge the others...

 

[edgar]

They do seem excited about the fibreglass don't they. Even the academics are vulnerable to shiny kit syndrome eh?

Funny you should mention bears, because that's what my rifle will be for, but I want to make a lot of holes in paper before I go out so cost is more important than any small advantage in ballistics there might be. I will go with .308 though if the cost otherwise ends up being about the same. I'm thinking about a thousand rounds costing more than the rifle, is there any difference between .303 and .308?

Grandpa got by potting Germans with .303 and they are a lot more scary than polar bears, but he probably would have went with 7.62 if he'd had it.

 

[KevinB]

Back in the day when you could pick up surplus .303 Brit really cheap - it was a viable round, for fun.  For hunting - people had old "sporterized" versions - and the soft point ammo.  I remember in the early 90's putting 5k of it in the back of my truck I bought in the US and driving it across - I think the GST was about $36 on it...

However a lot of that ammo was corrosive (corrosive primed) and thus unless the bore was srubbed out well (like soap and water well) - it would eat at the barrel and eventually turn it into Ak style accuracy  >.

  IMHO if we consider the Norther and West Coast Rangers a viable entity - we would require to get them a new rifle.  Since they also use their issue rifles for sustanance hunting - it needs to be in a viable hunting calibre - since it is also their dury weapon - it needs to be in a military calibre, .308/7.62 NATO does that.


 

 

[dapaterson]

Canadian Rangers carry weapons for self-defence against the elements, not for gunning down the enemy de jour (Fantasians, Tartans or Infidel-6es).

They take their weapons home, and are issued ammunition to maintain their proficiency.  That they use their proficiency rounds to hunt is just an added bonus.

There is ongoing examination of Ranger scales of issue, including weapons.  I would suspect that any Ranger Rifle Replacement project will be subsumed into the larger Small Arms Replacement Project II (the original SARP is what got us the C7).  That (hopefully) will result in some degree of commonality.

 

[KevinB]

Won't happen.

The needs of the Army are 100% different than the Rangers.  Secondly no one is going to send home a select fire carbine and a pile of loaded 30 rds mags for the Rangers.  I would suggest anyone trying to shoe horn those projects together has a lack of knowledge of the needs of both elements.

 

[dapaterson]

In theory SARP II will identify a family of weapons for CF use; the Ranger rifle would be part of that family (the red-head bastard stepchild, perhaps, but part of the family just the same).

While there may not be a great deal of commonality between the weapons selected, grafting it on to the program should keep the weapon from becoming an orphan - the fate of too many smaller projects in CF inventories.


I agree that the Rangers will not see a select fire 30 round mag carbine... I think they're holding out for a 40mm auto grenade launcher for use against those devious penguins...




(Yes, I know.  Antarctic vs arctic.  It's a joke...)

 

[geo]

The CF provides the Lee Enfield & the 303 ammo
The innu and inuit I know, for the most part, don't really use the Enfield unless they really have to.
Their preferred daytime rifle, when hunting seals and small game - 5.56

BTW DAP - Penguins are at the South Pole - not the North Pole

 

[KevinB]

DAP - roger.

However I've got a pretty good idea what weapon systems will be looked at.  The only two that I see as having a shot are the Mk17 and HK417 (in semi-auto versions) as those are the big brother 7.62mm versions of the parent system. 

  Yet - the problem with the way Cdn gun laws are implemented those weapons would be a restricted family, and the legal status of the Rangers would be "problematic"

Seeing as the plan is to keep the C3A1 as a .308 T'Wolf trainer -- there is going to need to be support for a .308 bolt gun (additionally I think it would be a logictical nigthmare to equip and train a Ranger unit with a Hk417 (additionally all the city gun nutz and other would be flocking to join so they could have one too) .


The system approach is nice - however I'd settle for getting the MP-5 out of the inventory as a reduction of supported platforms, - standardize on one "stabdard" issue platform family for the Force - and others as needed (LMG, GPMG, Bolt gun, pistol)

To reduce the fleet as it is remove all the various shotguns with one model of modular system , surivival rifles, cadet trainers etc with one type of action - but allow for different stock and barrel profile options.

 

[edgar]

The CF provides the Lee Enfield & the 303 ammo
The innu and inuit I know, for the most part, don't really use the Enfield unless they really have to.
Their preferred daytime rifle, when hunting seals and small game - 5.56

BTW DAP - Penguins are at the South Pole - not the North Pole

Reminds me of the Cornwallis cripplers, CF provides and the only people who actually ran in them didn't have a choice.

Maybe they could purchase for themselves and be reimbursed. I understand in WWII officers could carry any handgun they could get approved by the CO if they bought it themselves.

For protection against "the elements", if bears are the worst case scenario, a shotgun will do. If you're in the army, and worst case is Russians (sorry, I joined in the eighties), then you want a proper rifle. Enfield used to fill the bill, accurate and long range enough, but above all reliable. CASR seems to share my delusion that the Rangers may have to fight someday, or credibly look like they would. It might be bad for recruiting if word gets out that they are really just some sort of arctic commissionaires. I think giving them the HK417 might be good for recruiting. Speaking of city gun nuts, maybe I should join. Is there a Ranger group dedicated patrolling the wilds of the City of Saskatoon?

 

[dapaterson]

Geo:

Read the fine print in the original comment

Edgar:

The Roles, Missions and Tasks of the Rangers dictate otherwise.  They sneak and peek - and generally don't have the numbers to do much beyond that.  Not that there aren't occasional local initiatives...

 

[edgar]

Edgar:

The Roles, Missions and Tasks of the Rangers dictate otherwise.  They sneak and peek - and generally don't have the numbers to do much beyond that.  Not that there aren't occasional local initiatives...

I think if your sneaking and peeking at soldiers, you might want to have  a weapon you can fight them with, cause they'll be pissed off if they catch you at it. Didn't mean to start an argument there, although a thread on the role of the Rangers would be an interesting read. I'll do a search and if it's not in there maybe we can start one (cause I think Rangers are cool).

This one is a bit more specific. What I want to know is: is it cost effective to recondition the enfields or replace them with a .308?
An underlying assumption is that the enfield meets the need it is issued for and a replacement would fill the same need.

 

[geo]

Doh!

Done in by the fine print again!

 

[geo]

I think if your sneaking and peeking at soldiers, you might want to have  a weapon you can fight them with, cause they'll be pissed off if they catch you at it. Didn't mean to start an argument there, although a thread on the role of the Rangers would be an interesting read. I'll do a search and if it's not in there maybe we can start one (cause I think Rangers are cool).

This one is a bit more specific. What I want to know is: is it cost effective to recondition the enfields or replace them with a .308?
An underlying assumption is that the enfield meets the need it is issued for and a replacement would fill the same need.

Edgar,

The CF uses 5.56 for it's main service rifle AND the section MG (C7 & C9)
so you can sneak & peek - try not to get caught but, if you're in contact, 5.56 works well enoug in the great white north

 

[MG34]

I doubt very much the Rangers get a select fire or semi only military carbine/rifle or what have you, after all the bolt action is the only one considered reliable enough for sustained operations in that climate (YES I KNOW..BUT THESE AREN'T MY WORDS) and the replacement rifle if any will be a bolt action.  Seeing as the Ruger Mini 14 with a high capacity magazine is the prefferred hunting tool up there most are already equipped with a carbine anyways.

 

[geo]

All in all, not many rangers use the Enfield.... they have chosen to use something else, purchased weapon local, purchase ammo local and service local.  Retooling the Enfield to another calibre seems to me to be a non-starter.

You want a weapon that is solid, will take a beating and continue to work.  If it breaks, you want them to be able to service it up there.... not ship it down south for fixing - sometime in the future.

 

[mudgunner49]

McBros stocks and rebarreling jobs?  For the cost of these two mods the CF could buy all the Rangers a Ruger 77 Frontier with stainless barrel and action and a laminated stock for true all-weather performance, a more compact platform and far better performance overall than the Lee-Enfield.

I agree fully with MG34 that it needs to be a bolt-gun andyou would too if you saw how some of these guys (mis) treat and (mis) use their rifles.  Sporting config semis just would not stand up to the abuse...

Dressing up the current platform is kinda like polishing a turd - it's shiny but still a turd.  Don't get me wrong, the Enfield was fine "back in the day" but time marches on and there are much better options out there.

blake

 

[geo]

Was talking to one of my former WOs who just left the Rangers.

The one thing they Rangers like about the Enfield is.... the 200 to 300 rounds of free ammo they receive each year
THen again - many ranger dets have umpteen thousands of unused rounds - which tells me that, even if it's free, the rangers might prefer another rifle with another calibre.

 

[KevinB]

Yeah true - but anyone using 5.56mm on a bear is really needing their head checked.
I've shot people with it - and it works for people - but not big ass bears