Reservists Job Protection Superthread

[GAP]

I actually have, in a way.  I didn't tell my boss that I put my name in for a tour, but I brought the possibility of putting my name in for one.  He put it rather blunt.  My position within the company unfortunately cannot go un-attended for such a long period of time, therefore if I were to leave for a tour he would unfortunately have to replace me.

I am not as worried about finding another job.  I work in the IT field.  It's just that I have it good where I am (Im in charge of 9 people, company pays for my cell phone, gas when I travel, expenses etc etc)  I have become well established and already opened the door for myself in terms of advancement within the company and my career ahead.

You're right and your boss is right. I worked for both Digital and IBM (contract) and "out of sight, out of mind". They have to operate that way, but there is a lot of consideration on their part if you go and come back looking for work. Having worked your way up to that position, it would be hard to walk away from it. Better you than me  ;D

 

[aluc]

I always liked the idea of hiring a active reservist gets you a tax deduction for your business. Certainly anything that helps the companies bottom line helps the Militia. The money to do so should come from the Treasury Department not the Department of Defense, as it is a net benefit to Canada as a whole. 

I'm not 100% certain, but I think that is what the government does when a company hires a summer student, is it not?  I know that there is some sort of subsidy  for summer students, because in most cases it is kind of an inconvenience for companies to hire fresh students on for the summer. When I was a summer student, I believe something like half of my pay was subsidised by the government. It sounds like a viable idea for the reserve force.

 

[Mindbender1234]

In reply to rogsco's post:

Even if Beezer's pay was still coming in while he worked on the weekend does this mean that he should have to work every weekend for the rest of his contract?  I know some will say it's an extreme example, but when day-staff at the unit gets a CTO come hell or high water when they work a weekend or an evening then why shouldn't he?  Also, I know personally that certain units will tell their members that they must continue training with the unit if they want to be put on a class B (*cough cough* see beezer's avatar).  My civvie job doesn't pay me for weekend ex's, but the army does, which means I'm not working for free.  Do you think that someone in the Reg's would be tickled pink about doing a 1 weekend on/1 off for 6 month on a PLQ without being compensated somehow?

Back to the main thread.  Don't forget also that sometimes in the States employers will sometimes abolish positions to get around the law of guaranteeing a job.  So if you were a widget manager and went to Iraq there might just be a widget supervisor in your place when you get back.

That's just my two-cents.

P.S.  I would suggest that Beezer stage a picket line in the Depot seeing as his unit has about 2 dozen guys working there...

 

[TMM]

I'm not 100% certain, but I think that is what the government does when a company hires a summer student, is it not?

Definitely not in Ontario, which is where I hire and fire. There are some programs for at risk youth but nothing for summer students. There are a few programs such as NSERC, OITC and New Hires but they are for post secondary students.

 

[dglad]

Definitely not in Ontario, which is where I hire and fire. There are some programs for at risk youth but nothing for summer students. There are a few programs such as NSERC, OITC and New Hires but they are for post secondary students.

Not true, actually.  The Ministry of Training, Colleges and Universities has a program called SJS (Summer Job Service), which, among other components, provides a $2 per hour wage subsidy to employers to hire youth (15 to 24 yrs old) between April and September.  In Northern Ontario, the minstry for which I work, Northern Development and Mines, delivers the program on MTCU's behalf (in fact, I'm the manager responsible for overseeing delivery of this program in the North).  In other parts of the province, it's delivered by Job Connect, other agencies, or the Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs.  More info is available on the MTCU website at http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/document/brochure/summerjobs.html.

This is, of course, a provincial program.  However, a similar program at the federal level, for which the federal government subsidizes a replacement employee for a business for a Res F member on an operation, to some percentage or some fixed hourly rate, could easily be designed and would, frankly, cost peanuts.  The catch, of course, would be that the employer would have to enter into a contract with the government whereby they guarantee the Reservist's job upon his/her return to Canada, or else forfeit the subsidy. That leaves an employeer a choice between losing a Reservist temporarily and getting assistance backfilling the position, losing them permanently and getting no assistance (and gambling that the replacement employee will work out over the long-term), or dissuading the Reservist from ever leaving.  It's not an unreasonable set of choices, and probably more palatable for employers because, let's face it, they will tend to bend farther for good employees whom they wish to retain and less so for marginal employees.  So, Reservists who do good work for their civilian employers will be more likely to be taken back when they return; Reservists who aren't as valuable in their civilian jobs, for whatever reason, are more likely to be faced with deciding between their civilian and military careers.  This is, all-around, a more collaborative approach to the issue than something as "simple" as outright legislated job protection.

 

[735_winnipeg]

I faced this when I first signed up.  My previous civy employer wouldn't give me the time off to go to BMQ/SQ in Shilo.  His words to me was he can't give me time off cause it would be too expensive for the company to re-train me again once I got back.  The company was downsizing at the time too, so I think it was an excuse for him to not hear my case.  So I told him that I still choose to go to BMQ/SQ and to expect my letter of resignation soon.  That was back in 2004.  I still talk to people there and they said that the company has gone down in people and quality.

 

[Sig_Des]

When it came time to go do my QL3's in '05, I had a choice...Civvy employer, or go on my trades course.

My employer would just not give me the time.

I chose my 3's....gave up a decent civvy job. Found out last January that the company I worked for had been taken over shortly after, and had a large number of layoffs. I then started working class B.

In the end, I'm not going back to civvy-street until I retire. Component transfer into the regs in process.

For me, it was the right choice. Possibly not for others. It depends on the situation. In my case, it worked out well.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

My 2ic has been a career Bombardier in the Militia for over 20 years, in his real job he is a supervisor of 30+ people in the Hydro business, he can’t get time off to upgrade, I suspect he will be retiring as a Bomber, but he is used to it now and the Snr NCO’s respect his experience.

 

[735_winnipeg]

if there was provincial or federal laws that sided with reservists then i would still be a reservist now.  but the truth is that i can't survive on class A days all my CF time, that's why i made the decision to CT to regs as soon as i was medically cleared in feb 2006.  i made my choice, other than being in Borden i have no regrets rejecting my civy employer before.

sig_des, hope you get process soon.  what trade are you going into?  sigs? 

 

[JBP]

I'm doing the same right now... CT for Sig Op...

So this is music to my ears really, I hope to god they do speed things up, I applied through the recruit school bypass but I don't care if I get that or not, I'll do BMQ/SQ over again, doesn't matter, this is for my career so... No biggy.

Hope to join reg force ranks soon...

 

[Sig_Des]

sig_des, hope you get process soon.  what trade are you going into?  sigs? 

I am going Sigs with a skilled transfer process.... Hoping to cash in on that big 2-0

 

[lostrover]

Legislation to protect reservists is necessary in this country.  The dregree to which it is done should be in questions.  Few civilians have employement that restricts them from being able to partake in a few evenings a month and perhaps one weekend a month, thus Cl A training should be the responsibility of the employee/soldier.  Time should be permitted off for annual training (aka Milcon or what ever its called now).  As reservists are not "called up" for active service her ein Canada without and order in council, the legislation should also protect thos whom so choose to be active for situations such as the Manitoba Floods, Ice Storm et al.... regardless of where they are situated within the country, as these are events that have a direct impact on the Canadian economy.  Time off for training , ie courses is something that should be dealt with between an employer and the soldier, and the soldier has to capitalize on the benefits to the employer.  Most joing the reserves at a young age and and still in school and sans spouse/children (well now that is changing alot), thus thew ability to get there trades training is readily available.  We all need to work, thus once school is done one needs to make the decison, wether the military is going to be #1 or if there civilian career will be.  If you choose the militray route, then in most cases the regular force will be the best option, or should one desire to contiune serving, then the civilian carreer and staying in the reserves is the answer.  The Reserve Forces bring a whole new skill set to the military, one that cannot be found in the regular force.  I recall one of my sections from years ago................and electrician, plumer, carpenter,accountant, nurse, and 3 students (engineering and of coursethe others were in arts).  The reserves need to take a look at whom they have as CO's and whom they have as soldiers, rank althought very important should hold little value in getting the job done.  A LCol whom has spent his carreer on CLB, versus a Cpl whom has even taught the LCol in civy world, and manages a company strengh of employees, yet when donning a unifrom is just a Cpl, although a SME in some areas, there skill sets are not expolited becuase the CO has never lived in the real world.  Spending some days telling officers how its done and others saluting them and playing batman.  I made my decision years ago, got messed up pretty good had a medical category, once that was over with tried to "again" join the regular force...........but at the time cbt arms was the only thing open, thus i made my decision and rucked up and went out into the civy world, and still contributed to the CF for an additional 9 years after that.  If it was really needed, yes i would leave my wife and daughter, and don a uniform again, but that will never happen still such time as individual units get tasked to provide a plt or coy for an operation, and that will never happen without proper legislation.  My confusing rant is done.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Your last sentence summed it all up nicely.

 

[lostrover]

frag format

legislation is needed

but the governmwnt till make it bohica legislation, and will talk about it till all my hair is grey before it happens

 

[Lost_Warrior]

The reserves need to take a look at whom they have as CO's and whom they have as soldiers, rank althought very important should hold little value in getting the job done.

Of course it should hold value in getting the job done.  The Cpl, although successful in civie life has nowhere near the experience in commanding soldiers and military tactics that a Col wold have. 

 

[The_Falcon]

quote]Few civilians have employement that restricts them from being able to partake in a few evenings a month and perhaps one weekend a month, thus Cl A training should be the responsibility of the employee/soldier[/quote]

This is a little off, there was an article in the Globe and Mail (it was posted on workopolis, so it was either the Globe or The Star), a while back describing how only 40% of Canadians work the traditional 9-5.  Thats 60% of Canadian who do shift work or work irregular business hours.  That can definetly restrict someone in partaking in a few evening a month let alone a weekend (especially for shift workers).  Also to consider that a great deal of reservists are also in school, which has its own demands, which can include study time, traveling time (There was one girl who travelled from Waterloo for the last 4 years), and sometimes another job. 

On another note, I myself was biased for a position because I am reservist.  I was in a job interview, and they asked about my reserve commitments, I explained (1nite/week, 1 wknd) and I added that my regiment was fairly understanding about members not parading all the time due to civy jobs. They didn't budge and said as long as I was in the reserves, I wouldn't be an acceptable candidate.

 

[big bad john]

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/westview/story/3636591p-4204530c.html

Unfinished business
Canada's part-time soldiers deserve job protection when they serve their country

Wed Aug 16 2006

By Bob Bergen



STEPHEN Harper's Conservative government seems refreshingly bold with its outspoken support for the Canadian Forces and long-range plans to acquire desperately needed ships, planes and vehicles after decades of neglect.
But, it's time for the government to do something concrete now for reservists risking their lives daily in combat in Afghanistan and on duty elsewhere in the world.

The government should introduce job protection legislation that will guarantee reservists get their former jobs back when they return from places like Afghanistan, Haiti, Croatia and Bosnia where there are not enough regular forces to do the job.

This is an issue that has been bandied about for far too long and which has been punctuated with half-hearted measures by previous governments that paid lip service to the well-established need.

Primary reservists are civilians who voluntarily take paid part-time military training around 30 to 45 days a year, usually one night a week and on weekends, depending on their courses.

There are about 300 reservists among the 2,300 Canadian troops currently taking part in Operation Archer, Canada's contribution to the war against terror in Afghanistan.   
Cpl. Anthony Boneca -- a reservist who was killed in Afghanistan -- was typical of about half of Canada's 24,000 primary army, navy, air force reservists who are students.

Reservists like Boneca are either finished school or are able to take time off from their studies for extended periods of military duty overseas. He was on his second tour in Afghanistan.

Unlike Boneca, the rest of the reservists hold full-time or part-time jobs.

The issue for them is getting time off for work-up training with the regular forces and then a six-month deployment and still having a job when they return.

This is a serious matter that is being addressed at the highest levels in the North Atlantic Treaty Organization with Canadian Maj.-Gen. Herb Petras now in the lead.

On July 7, Petras, who is Canada's Chief of Reserves and Cadets, assumed the chairmanship of NATO's influential 20-nation National Reserve Forces Committee (NRFC). He will serve both roles concurrently.

One of the most critical issues the NRFC will tackle is the re-integration of reservists into their respective communities after overseas deployments or, more simply, ensuring that reservists get their old jobs back.

There was a five-day Employer Support for Reservist Conference on just this issue in Ottawa in May and June of last year, which included Canada, the United States, the United Kingdom, Singapore, Poland, New Zealand, the Netherlands, Latvia, Italy, Germany and Australia. The fifth such conference will take place in the United Kingdom in 2007. That's how important this is internationally.

The United States, the United Kingdom and Australia are leaders in this because they have instituted legislation that requires employers to re-instate their reservist employees after protracted military duty.

But, what has Canada done?

In 2002, as part of its Anti-Terrorism Plan, Jean Chrétien's Liberal government introduced the Public Safety Act to protect reservists' jobs if called up for compulsory emergency duty in the event of insurrection, riot, invasion, or armed conflict.

In 2004, the Act received Royal assent, but the regulations that would bring the amendments into force were not approved by cabinet.

Even if they were, they would have done the reservists now fighting in Afghanistan absolutely no good at all. They were not called up, they volunteered. As a result, they would not be afforded job protection under the Act.

In fact, a compulsory call up of Canadian reserves hasn't taken place since the Second World War.

Let's call a spade a spade here. Canada is at war in Afghanistan and the fact that reservists fighting alongside the regular forces aren't afforded the job protection contemplated by the Public Safety Act is appalling.

To its everlasting credit, the Canadian Forces Liaison Council acts in support of the Department of National Defence in absence of such legislation. The Council is a volunteer organization of prominent business leaders who work with Canadian employers encouraging them, of their own good will, to allow reservists in their employ to deploy abroad and re-instate their jobs upon return.

The council has the expressed support of about 4,700 employers nationally and claims about a 90 per cent success rate when dealing with businesses reluctant to give reservists their jobs back.

But, you don't have to know many reservists at all before you meet good ones who have left the military because they had to make a choice between their jobs or overseas deployments because there is no job protection legislation.

Canada has a moral obligation to reservists risking their lives serving their country that goes far beyond goodwill.

They deserve meaningful job protection legislation and they deserve it now.


Bob Bergen is a Research Fellow with the Canadian Defence and Foreign Affairs Institute in Calgary

 

[c4th]

legislation is needed

I would argue that legislation in not needed in the least.  I've said it before, but legislation will serve absolutely no one except to possibly garnish a few votes for a few politicians, with the possible exception of incleasing the number of CT's from unemployed reservists to the reg force.

The end result of Legislated job protection is that the business owner is being asked to pay an increased share of Canada's defence and foreign policy and continuing military neglect by providing the deployable military with cheap available reservists.  The majority of Canadians including the majority of civilian employed reservists work for small businesses.  It will come as no surprise that in most cases the expenses and the value of these businesses are their employees.  A small IP business owner once told me when we were discussing this topic that the cost of hiring, training, and probation of a new employee is nearly equivalent to one years salary.  Doing some research about a decade ago, I discovered that personnel agencies bill up to 40% of a first year full time salary for each placement.  An employer, when hiring any reservist, especially a "protected" one, runs a significant risk in doubling their HR expense on that one employee.  If there is any benefit to reservists it will be a negative one, as it will highlight in every employer's mind the risks involved in hiring them.  I would be willing to wager a years salary on this simple premise:  No civilian employer who cannot absorb the costs of replacing a deployed reservist is going to hire one and stay in business.

I see two possible alternatives for legislation.  The first being that reservists need to take responsibility for their lives by setting some realistic priorities as opposed to winging on to everyone who will listen about job protection.  If the priority is overseas service then realize that military service is being chosen over civilian employment.  To ask a business owner to pay for this choice in a market economy is absurd.   If the priority is to secure long term civilian employment and providing for home and family then buggering off for 12-16 months may not be the best way to meet this priority.  As it sounds from many posts and many discussions in real life, if the priority is to protect a cushy Class B position for the rest of a reservists useful life while collecting the increased pay and allowances, then bad luck.  Why we keep the same reservists Class B is beyond me.  IMO any reservist on Class B longer than one year should either be enrolled to the reg force or returned to Class A for a period of no less than 12 months, but I digress.

The other alternative is to conscript small business owners into overseas service.  Thus a business owner would at least collect the benefit of a tax free salary, allowances, and a medal or two.

I suspect that those in government actually realize what the costs of Job Protection Legislation is and also realize that the votes of the business owners outnumber in every riding the vote of the few reservists.

 

[dapaterson]

Why not mix the carrot and stick?  Non-refundable tax credit of $500 per week to the employer while the reservist is away from their civilian job.  Restrictions on approval authorities for this (probably restricted to the LFA or higher, as I can see potential for abuse), but it would be realtively simple.

Providing employers with an economic incentive would encourage their support, offset some costs they incur (though they would be avoiding the reservist's normal civilian salary), and provide tangible evidence to the soldier that they are valued.

Of course, this would have to be tied to stronger terms of service for the Reserves - the CF would require much more control over soldiers than is currently asserted.

 

[GAP]

Why not mix the carrot and stick?  Non-refundable tax credit of $500 per week to the employer while the reservist is away from their civilian job.  Restrictions on approval authorities for this (probably restricted to the LFA or higher, as I can see potential for abuse), but it would be realtively simple.

Providing employers with an economic incentive would encourage their support, offset some costs they incur (though they would be avoiding the reservist's normal civilian salary), and provide tangible evidence to the soldier that they are valued.

Of course, this would have to be tied to stronger terms of service for the Reserves - the CF would require much more control over soldiers than is currently asserted.

I don't think it has to be that high, but would have to be eligible only when attached with a copy of reservist's orders