Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society

[TheHead]

Thanks for fixing that

 

[ballz]

My poor attempt at humour - rationalist.

Sorry hahaha I laughed when I saw the big yellow words ... there is no way I should have needed that explained to me :facepalm:

I'm not sure about the Western heresies (RCs, Protestants and such), but I can assure you that Orthodox Christianity did not give anyone Hitler.

And history shows that they're as spectacularly bad at it as Theists.  They have exactly no advantage there.  It's not religion, or the lack thereof, that is the problem.  It's human nature to be cruel to each other for personal gain.  That's historically demonstrable.  Christianity not only acknowledges that, but it's part of our doctrine in the first place.

Again, I think any kind of measuring of goods and bad is completely missing the point. I knew this was coming, but I don't want to get into a debate about religions, my only point in posting is to point out the hypocrisy and intolerance of all these religions towards atheism. Truth be told though, when it comes to these "bad" deeds, the point that any rationalist would make is that no atheist was motivated by atheism to do bad deeds, but various religions do motivate people to do bad things they would otherwise not do if they did not believe in that religion.

Interestingly, I often find myself sympathetic towards atheists, even if I don't agree with them.  Quite often their reasons for rejecting Christianity are the exact same reasons I rejected Western Christianity.

That's curious.

It is, however, true that Hitchens, Dawkins, Mahr and such, are the ones that get the airtime, get their movies made and get their books published and promoted.  I'm well aware that their views are far from representative of all atheists.  Regardless of whether they represent the "loudmouth moron fringe" of atheism or not, they end up being the de facto face of atheism to non-atheists.

Maher isn't even atheist, he's a rationalist.

Dawkins and Hitchens wanting to "abolish" religion is actually that they just want to abolish things like laws being tied to religion, and having religion taught to children in schools, etc. As far as they're concerned, they don't want anything to do with what you do inside your own home, they just don't want people's beliefs affecting what they do in their daily life. They want the separation of church and state, they don't want kids being taught in school at an early age to believe something that has no evidence to support it. They also believe that religion holds back humanity from finding answers, and they're right, the Catholic church only just recently admitted that it was wrong for putting Galileo in jail for discovering the world is round and that it orbits the sun.

George Strombolopolous asked Christopher Hitchens, "I guess if it gets you through the night, why not right?" and he said "As long as you don't try and teach it to my children, absolutely. As long as you keep it to yourself I don't mind if you believe in virgin births or resurrections or this kind of thing. But the implication always is that you've got to believe it to or you're going to hell."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zrrk0CU4QlE&feature=relmfu @ 2:25 and he says something similar at 3:30 about "going and telling it on the mountain."

So here's the loud mouth moron himself saying that... doesn't sound very intolerant to me, sounds like he just wants to be left alone and not have religion imposed on him. Quite frankly it scares me when the candidate for VP of the US claims that "God has a plan."

As for Dawkins, I have never seen him be anything but patient and respectful, I'd be much less patient so I won't criticize him.

EDIT: To correct an error

 

[Michael OLeary]

Again, I think any kind of measuring of goods and bad is completely missing the point. I knew this was coming, but I don't want to get into a debate about religions, my only point in posting is to point out the hypocrisy and intolerance of all these religions towards atheism.

Can you point out any official documents that are in current use by major religions to actively preach, or organize their followers, against atheism in western culture?

 

[daftandbarmy]

Which reminds me of a joke....

One bright, beautiful Sunday morning, everyone in the tiny village wakes up early and goes to their local church. Before the service starts, the townspeople sit in their pews and talk about their lives and their families.

Suddenly, at the altar, Satan appears!! Everyone starts screaming and running for the front entrance, trampling each other in their determined efforts to get away from Evil Incarnate. Soon, everyone is evacuated from the church except for one man, who sit calmly in his pew, seemingly oblivious to the fact that God's ultimate enemy is in his presence. This confuses Satan a bit. Satan walks up to the man and says, "Hey, don't you know who I am?" The man says, "Yep, sure do."

Satan says, "Well, aren't you afraid of me?" The man says, "Nope, sure ain't."

Satan, perturbed, says, "And why aren't you afraid of me?" The man says, "Well, I've been married to your sister for 25 years."

 

[TheHead]

Can you point out any official documents that are in current use by major religions to actively preach, or organize their followers, against atheism in western culture?

The Bible and the Quran.......

 

[cupper]

Taoism = Shit happens.
Buddhism = If shit happens, it's not really shit.
Islam = If shit happens, it's the will of Allah.
Protestantism = Shit happens because you don't work hard enough.
Judaism = Why does this shit always happen to us?
Hinduism = This shit happened before.
Catholicism = Shit happens because you're bad.
Hare Krishna = Shit happens rama rama.
T.V. Evangelism = Send more shit.
Atheism = No shit.
Jehova's Witness = Knock knock, shit happens.
Hedonism = There's nothing like a good shit happening.
Christian Science = Shit happens in your mind.
Agnosticism = Maybe shit happens, maybe it doesn't.
Rastafarianism = Let's smoke this shit.
Existentialism = What is shit anyway?
Stoicism = This shit doesn't bother me.

 

[Michael OLeary]

The Bible and the Quran.......

Ah yes, the first and only argument of the internet atheist, taking the stance that every Christian must be a theological literalist. Sadly, if that is all you or others can offer, you have given up any credibility or integrity you might bring to the discussion.

 

[cupper]

The Bible and the Quran.......

Be more specific.

 

[TheHead]

Be more specific.

Psalms 14:1 off the top of my head. 

 

[the 48th regulator]

Be more specific.

Psalms 14:1 off the top of my head.

Sorry cupper,

You did get Pwned.

All I have to say, is they are a bunch of Godless Heathens, is all.

dileas

tess

 

[TheHead]

Ah yes, the first and only argument of the internet atheist, taking the stance that every Christian must be a theological literalist. Sadly, if that is all you or others can offer, you have given up any credibility or integrity you might bring to the discussion.

I never said that every Christians is a literalist.  Thank god there aren't.  30% of American Christians see themselves as literalists about 49% see it as inspired. That is still a large percentage of the population.  I don't see why I can't invoke the Bible though. 79% Americans see it as at least inspired.  Should I quote pastors  who think there should be national date bases for Atheists so they can boycott their businesses?  We all know how well that worked out in the past

 

[ballz]

Ah yes, the first and only argument of the internet atheist, taking the stance that every Christian must be a theological literalist. Sadly, if that is all you or others can offer, you have given up any credibility or integrity you might bring to the discussion.

I didn't post this because and don't want to turn it into an Atheism vs Agnosticism vs Christianity vs Islam vs Hebrew vs Wicca vs ....

"Every" Christian doesn't mistrust atheists, "every" Muslim doesn't mistrust atheist, and not all atheists are tolerant. Through a large, scientific survey however, the level to which they are "mistrusted" isn't far off from the level that a rapist is mistrusted. That's pretty ridiculous.

The point is, atheists are discriminated against, even if they aren't being actively told at church to discriminate against atheism. They are, however, being taught that if they don't believe "x" religion, they are going to hell, and that leads to a logical conclusion... other people who don't believe in "x" religion are going to hell, and who goes to hell? Evil people.

I won't pull out the quotes that say so if you don't want me to. I'm not sure using some of the very blatant, hateful quotes from the holy books that these entire religions are based off is somehow an invalid argument, but I'm not going to since it takes away from my original point. I didn't post this to hate on anybody else's beliefs, I posted it to point out there is a problem with them hating on others beliefs.

I hope this thread doesn't spiral out of control, or into circular arguments. I just wanted to share the study. Make of it what you will, I suppose. I think it's a problem.

 

[cupper]

Being an atheist, with a Protestant mother and Catholic father, it always made filling out NOK forms interesting.

One time when clearing in at the BOR in Moncton the clerk asked "So who do we send for the call if something happens?"

Me "Send a Rabbi."

After we all stopped laughing, the Chief Clerk indicated that the decision would be based on the Primary NOK's denomination.

 

[Michael OLeary]

I won't pull out the quotes that say so if you don't want me to. I'm not sure using some of the very blatant, hateful quotes from the holy books that these entire religions are based off is somehow an invalid argument, but I'm not going to since it takes away from my original point. I didn't post this to hate on anybody else's beliefs, I posted it to point out there is a problem with them hating on others beliefs.

Quote away. Then prove that every Catholic, Protestant, UCC, Presbyterien, etc., believes, supports and follows each of your chosen "blatant, hateful quotes" to make your case.  That is the flawed assumption you are trying to make your argument out of, and in doing so are showing the very ignorance you are trying to decry.

Feel free to choose your own belief system, but as soon as you attack others with general language, unfounded sweeping assumptions and and the inability to discuss details beyond literal biblical quotes, you have failed. The error that most internet atheists make is to suggest the Bible is the only document ever used by a Christian faith and to choose to believe it is accepted unconditionally in making their specious counter-arguments.

 

[TheHead]

Except he isn't saying EVERY theist believes in that life destroying nonsense but there is a large group that does.

 

[cupper]

Sorry cupper,

You did get Pwned.

All I have to say, is they are a bunch of Godless Heathens, is all.

dileas

tess

Not Pwned. I know that there are many verses addressing lack of belief in a god in both books.

Just wanted him to be more specific. The Bible is a pretty big book.

Kinda like standing in the middle of the woods and saying "Look at the guy over there by that tree".

 

[TheHead]

Not Pwned. I know that there are many verses addressing lack of belief in a god in both books.

Just wanted him to be more specific. The Bible is a pretty big book.

Kinda like standing in the middle of the woods and saying "Look at the guy over there by that tree".

That was my fault.  I should have elaborated.  Sorry.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Except he isn't saying EVERY theist believes in that life destroying nonsense but there is a large group that does.

He said "entire religions." The study mentioned above claimed to have surveyed North Americans to which I would assume he must be referring to back up his opinions of the articles' results. Will we now leap to generalizing only that some undefined "large groups" might believe something? I would have expected a little more scientific from the online community of atheism to back up their comments.

 

[TheHead]

So 30% of Christian Americans isn't a large group? 

 

[Michael OLeary]

So 30% of Christian Americans isn't a large group? 

So, how many stonings occurred in the Unites States last year?

Or do you think there might be some balance among all that inferred literalism?