Recruits these days

[Sh0rtbUs]

MASS, with that ideal in mind, why even have a selection process? The point is, if a soldier works to be better, then in my mind there is no problem. the issue is, those that either refuse to admit their faults and improve, or just simply dont want to improve and coast by. When sh*t hits the fan, id much rather be sitting with the guy who has proven himself and taken the opprotunites to show that he cares about his job, rather than the one who never seemed to care from the beginning.

I've only been in for a year, and so far when things got rough, the ones whom never put in effort, ended up being the ones to cop out. Those that worked hard on their courses, seemed to carry the load much better than those that slacked.

 

[Bert]

After reading the last few posts, it seems all are saying the same thing.   Drive and
perseverence.   I think thats basically understood.

To take what 48Highlander wrote a bit further, BMQ is an introduction to military life,
to learn military knowledge and prinicples and it takes mental, emotional, and physical
challenges to make the recruit understand.   During the course, the recruit
reflects on experiences, thus the weeding out process begins or uses drive and
perseverence (amoung other things) to continue on and succeed.

In my opinion, BMQ is a 10 week course at the beginning of a career and qualifies the
recruit for absolutely nothing, other than introductory concepts, skills, and the
understanding of teamwork, cohesion, drive and perseverence.   These concepts
are vitally important to getting jobs done later in a career.

The recruit goes on to trades training and eventually becomes or is posted to his/her unit.
In my opinion again, this is the beginning of where one's true colors come out.   In
active service, the member has to perform the job on-base, tasked or deployed, work
with others and the chain of command, work as an individual, a section, a unit and put
to use the skills and knowledge gained from the past.   Having observed this, you get all
kinds.   Its too easy to become arrogant and crap on others.

In my unit, we have a great and solid chain of command.    I'm proud to be a part of
it.   Members that forget the experiences of teamwork, perseverence, and drive or may
be under fitness standards, are known and sorted out fairly.   Its here I think individual
issues should get sorted out by the unit and it works here.   I can't speak for other
Reg or Res units or bases.

 

[Bucksnort]

Also has to do with todays rights.

 

[DFW2T]

Just seems like some slack troops with a lack of drive, that also possibly of being misinformed before signing on the dotted line. Not everyone is cut out for it. Its unfortunate they had to find that out on course. I remember on my bmq we lost 5 from my section alone. 1 because he thought he would be able to handle using a gun, and after finally being able to hold one and complete the pwt, he realized that he couldn't and left. we had 2 people leave with broken bones sustained during their own time. 1 Left because there was a family issue in regards to the family being from iran and they didn't agree with what was going on overseas. There are added pressures between the army and home life that can play on people. I think i remember our instructor saying 1 in about 7 dont finish their bmq. either from failing a test over and over or just leaving.
[ /quote]
  Hey CFN... I concur
    Not to sound like  "one that knows it all"  but I gotta say....nowadays it seems people are enlisting and think the whole F'n military owes them SOMETHING FOR SIGNING ....meaning..... so what if I can't do the push ups ....I'm here aren't I??....
    I did my jump course in '92 we and lost 80%..........Did these guys cry about it and go to their lawyers or their harassment OPI for "wrongful failure or some BS [laugh but it's being done].      NO..........THEY SUCKED IT UP AND BECAME  VERY DETERMINED TO THE BEST ON THE NEXT COURSE!  Although  I'm not in the military now ...I'm doing  military type OPs (,in my currant proffession)  and I tell you I wouldn't work with 90% of the people I was in the SVC BN with.....just because , they were there.... only because "THEY COULDN'T BE KICKED OUT" due to our Human Rights Acts .........Who do you want serve with??
Someone who knows the BOOKS, THEIR RIGHTS AND HOW TO WRITE A ROUND TRIP MEMORANDUM or  someone who's willing to be taught, guided and ready to die for the guy/girl beside them????
  Just my 2 cents

 

[Island Ryhno]

I find that most of the posts associate poor fitness with a poor recruit. This is not always the case, I'm a big guy, I run the 2.4 like I have three legs, I've been running for years, it's not my thing, I'm not good at it, some people aren't. I can throw around a ruck like a pillow, some of the guys who run 10k 3 times a week can't lift the F**ker. I have a friend who runs 10k 4 or 5 times a week, can do pushups something fierce and has a 6 pack of abs (mine are more like a keg  :'() he dropped out of infantry training because he couldn't do the ruck marches, I didn't. I think physical fitness is important, but it is not the most important thing. When was the last time anyone here in the infantry ran 8k in combat? I think if the person has reasonable fitness levels but is great with the PO's and EO's then that makes them a good soldier.I would personally rather have someone who knows how to handle a C7 properly next to me than the stud who can run like the wind and pushup like he was humpin' Betty Lou back home but don't know shit about shit. Just MHO.

 

[Hutch]

Now I'm really late to this topic, I apologize, but I got to page 3 and I had to put somthing in, yes yes I should of read all then, but here are my cents in, I can't hold it in any longer.

Forgive my chopieness, my english is horriable.

I am dubbed the ninatedo generation. I have never owned, a game conseul, now computer, thats another story. Anyways to the point.

I should state this now, my BMQ starts this friday. So I have no expiernce, and for all you care my words could mean nothing.

I picture myself an "average" recruit. I can do 20 push ups, a whole heck a lot of sit ups. Well Ill sum up my physical shape. Arms are weak as all h*ll, very little muscle. Lower body and mid body, strong, quite above average. In this way, I am not average, but bare with me.

What is a good recruit? Somone who enters BMQ that can do 50 proper push ups? Then how come they set the minium to 19? You complain about the poor quality of the recruits. What do you expect from your recruits? Lets face it, if you are going to get a recruit from the age of 17-20 you are most likely going to get somone who cannot do 50 push ups, maybe 25, therare obvousily expections. I look around my high-school and I talk to my friends about joining the army. I tell them the min. Maybe one of them can do 5 push ups. I don't hang around with a "weak" bunch, but a very (again that word) "average" bunch.

And now out of curosity, you as a instuctor, what are you looking for? Intelligence, somone who shuts up and gives you answer you want, or the right one? Strength?

I again forgive the chopieness and probally the lack of chorience, and point, but I had to say somthing.

 

[48Highlander]

What is a good recruit? Somone who enters BMQ that can do 50 proper push ups? Then how come they set the minium to 19?

That's part of the problem.  As far as I know, some 20-30 years ago the standard was 60 pushups.  That's why you get called the "nintendo generation".  I got the same label when I joined.  Not because you yourself are exceptionaly weak, but because people in general these days tend to be weaker/more out of shape.

And now out of curosity, you as a instuctor, what are you looking for? Intelligence, somone who shuts up and gives you answer you want, or the right one?

The answer I want IS the right one.  If I ask you a question, I don't particularily give a damn what you think the right answer is.  Any answer other than what I want is wrong.  You'd better learn that if you hope to pass your course.

 

[2FERSapper]

why is the standard 19 for when ppl join. B/c noone would pass if it was 50. Put to 25 and i bet youd lose about 10-15% of the ppl who show up to BMQ's. And its not so much the lack of physical fitness preparidness as much as it is the lack of pyschological readiness and a proper commitment. People join the army as if its something as trivial as joining a club in highschool. its a serious orginization your joining and yet ppl dont do the proper research before they join. thats why on my inital comment i place blame on both the recruits themsleves and also recruiters who obviously are not attempting to correct the recruits or possible recruits misconceptions of what the military is all about.

 

[ab136]

This is the kind of career where minimum will get you in but I don't think minimum should keep you there.  I was going to say that the minimums should be weeded out though Basic but....your right 2FERSapper, the recruiters should be doing that at the start.  You have to be prepared.  When I did my fit test the guy before me could not do his push-ups...not even close; so why show up if you can't do it?

 

[Butters]

Wow...

On my PT I hit 21 push-ups and the guy said ok, stop good enough... I would have only been able to maybe do a  few more. Sit ups i did 43 in 1 minute, and running... well I run 5KM 3X a week. I think i'm farily fit and ready for my BMQ that begins in 2 days. Push-ups have never been my thing. I'm really mentaly and pyshically fit... I honestly hope I do not get weeded out due to my poor push-ups. I don't see myself giving up either.

When I had my interview one guy showed up in sweatpants and another thought it was wrong that she had to wait 30 minutes to have her interview; so she left.

Wow that's just a joke. When I went in for my interview I also had my medical on the same day. I completed my medical first and had to wait 2 HOURS! Then the Capt. that was going to interview me said he had to re-scheduale me because he was busy, I said no problem whenever your ready im ready. The following Tuesday I came in for my interview. People that do that crap need to be put on a blacklist or somthing from re-applying. Why leave after 30minutes? But yet have the balls to show up in jogging pants?

As for the nintendo generation...
When I was like 10-13 I played nintendo like a mad man, but when I hit 13 i realized wtf this crap is gay. I hardly even get on a console anymore, unless i'm at someone's house and it's already on and I need to wait for them to get ready. I personally hate all console systems and find them to be a waste of money.

not kill anyone!?!?!?!
What the heck did they think they give you a gun for? For a nice modeling pose if you happen to walk past someone with a camera? Maybe when they apply and have no CF history be forced to read a book or somthing with the history of Canada's Military. Then maybe some people will realize what it's all about. Then to make sure they got the understanding, make another part of the whole process at the RC a test on the book/hand out you read. and the recurits would have to score above 85% on it.

 

[Love793]

Remember, the PT standard is a CF wide thing.  A RMS Clerk in Cold Lake, does not require the upper body strength of a Sapper in Petawawa.  Every one who is qualified in their trade knows the physical requirements of their trade.  Do I as a tanker require to be able to run for prolong distance, probably not.  Do I need the upper strength more than the infantry guy does, possibly.  Just because a candidate does not meet your expectations, day one of a course is NOT a reason look down upon him/her.  Actually, I believe it's a reason for the instructor to build that person up.  Spend less time bitching about the quality of the civie you're turning into a warrior, and more time molding him/her into one.  The worst thing any instructor can be asked, is "Did you train that F*cking Moron?"

 

[48Highlander]

Remember, the PT standard is a CF wide thing.   A RMS Clerk in Cold Lake, does not require the upper body strength of a Sapper in Petawawa.   Every one who is qualified in their trade knows the physical requirements of their trade.   Do I as a tanker require to be able to run for prolong distance, probably not.

Everyone's a rifleman first.

 

[Love793]

Everyone's a rifleman first.

You're right, every one is a required to qualify yearly, to be able to defend them selve if push comes to shove.  However, not everyone is required to serve within a inf pl.  Everyones job has a different physical requirement.

 

[x-grunt]

I don't think recruits are necessarily all that different now. I was a recruit course instructor back in '80. Maybe people are generally a bit less fit, but then again I see a lot of fit young men and women around too. I think   drive and motivation are more important then intial fitness. Given a person who can do 50 pushups and does 50, or someone who struggles with 20 and works like a demon to push out 21, l'd give higher regard to the latter. He/she is demonstrating drive and endurance that will stand them in good stead when they're bagged out and have to perform past their comfort zone.

However, graduating from basic with just the minimum fitness level isn't okay. Does that happen? I could see it might in the new part-time militia BMQ. Training from recruit to infantry qual in the militia used to be one full time commitment and the instructors could push people to drive the bod and get fit.

Those of you who are currently involved as BMQ instructors, how do you find the part-time format as far as quality of training and fitness?

 

[Bert]

48th has a point that everyone is a soldier first, MOC second.  Whether your Army, Air Force, or Navy, the
member requires the training and the ability to meet the enemy in their respective elemental situations.
However, the training, context, and day to day on-the-job activities are much different between the
elements and you cannnot equate the combat readiness or fitness of an infantry soldier and a
series 500 airman as an example.  Day to day work is so much different too.

I don't really understand why recruit fitness is such a big issue.  On my basic, there was a recruit who could do
nearly 75 push-ups and he almost didn't finish the course for various reasons.  Push-ups, in and of itself,
doesn't make a soldier.  Perhaps 48th there may be an issue of training between reg force and res but guys on my
BMQ got ramped up pretty good in PPCLI and RCR.

Also, PT fter BMQ/trades training changes at the first posting.  This is more reg force but may apply at some
level to res.  The CF states a minimum fitness standard each member must achieve.  The unit the member is
attached may have their own fitness "standards" and training.  My unit performs regular ruck marches in addition to
standard PT and occasional readiness courses.  Those that have difficulty keeping up attend additional PT classes
or training on their own.   The unit training builds cohesion, increases our fitness readiness, and sets a fitness s
tandard as defined by our WO.  I've found different units on the base have their own methods.  

In my opinion its not useful complaining about BMQ and recruits.  At this stage their level of knowledge and
readiness whether they can do 30 or 298 push-ups isn't important.  I'm generalizing all elements.  Once
they get to their respective elements, bases, units, and sections, the standards for readiness, training, and
operations may change significantly and I find alot of opporunity to maintain and improve members rests
with the units themselves.  

 

 

[Love793]

Bert,  Exactly what I was trying to vocalise.

 

[2FERSapper]

Remember, the PT standard is a CF wide thing.   A RMS Clerk in Cold Lake, does not require the upper body strength of a Sapper in Petawawa.   Every one who is qualified in their trade knows the physical requirements of their trade.   Do I as a tanker require to be able to run for prolong distance, probably not.   Do I need the upper strength more than the infantry guy does, possibly.   Just because a candidate does not meet your expectations, day one of a course is NOT a reason look down upon him/her.   Actually, I believe it's a reason for the instructor to build that person up.   Spend less time bitching about the quality of the civie you're turning into a warrior, and more time molding him/her into one.   The worst thing any instructor can be asked, is "Did you train that F*cking Moron?"

no thats not the point im trying to get across here love793. Although part of my point is about how recruits are not physically ready for course my main point apon starting this thread was that candidates(not all but most) are showing up without any serious understand of what they are getting themselves into. They watch on tv and movies glory and guts and join the army with misconceptions of what they are getting into. i had so many candidates quit BMQ b/c it wasnt what they expected. they expected to be getting to machien guns and rocket launchers right away. "why do we waste time getting taugh all this stuff" or " i didnt think id have to do this kinda stuff", or having candidates cry when recieving their weapons for the first time and being told by me they would  b in a world of sh*t if they pointed it at anyone while waiting to b marched over to their safety handeling class b/c its a weapon and its made to kill. I mean i had 3 candidates try to quit b/c i told them the purpose of the weapon is to kill so dont point it at anyone unless you intend to use the weapon and its use is to kill. 3 crying troops who wanted to QUIT b/c they didnt realize they would have to be trained how to use a weapon to kill. I mean. do research before you go and join the army. you do reasearch before you choose a car your going to buy, or the university or college your going to go to, or what company your going to use as your cell phone provider. but when it comes to joining the army it doesnt require that much though. I dono im done my rant. basicly its not just the lack of physical fitness(and not just the first weekend i mean the overlack of the troops doing pt at home between course weekends) but moreso the lack of commitment and serious consideration before joining the army

 

[Love793]

2FER,

I know what point you where trying to make.  I was starting to see some shirking from others in our instructor role, and tried to re aim them towards the final goal.

 

[2FERSapper]

ah well mistook the msg to be direct to me my bad

 

[Love793]

ah well mistook the msg to be direct to me my bad

Ishould have reworded it.  Unfortunately, I was working on 4 things at once.  Probably my bad.