Re: Israel Hits U.N. Post

[jollyjacktar]

The chap killed has been identified.  Sadly it's true he was one of ours.  I am thankful however, my friend is still safe.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060725/israel_fighting_060726/20060726?hub=TopStories 

Wes, true enough.  But you have to agree, the days of dumb iron bomb going where the wind blows is pretty much gone for a first rate military force.  Especially if they have any interest in bringing fire down upon the target and minimising collateral damage.

 

[jollyjacktar]

As for Uncle Steven, Jolly, he has shown more leadership in one day than other PMs have in decades, and if I lived back in dear ole Canada, he would have got my vote.

Wes, have met him.  I call all the PM's "Uncle" regardless of political stripe.  And he did get my vote.

 

[1feral1]

The chap killed has been identified.  Sadly it's true he was one of ours.  I am thankful however, my friend is still safe.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060725/israel_fighting_060726/20060726?hub=TopStories 

Wes, true enough.  But you have to agree, the days of dumb iron bomb going where the wind blows is pretty much gone for a first rate military force.  Especially if they have any interest in bringing fire down upon the target and minimising collateral damage.

I don't know the circumstances, and maybe we will never know, but what is known is that we have yet lost another, this time a man of experience, and over 20yrs TI. Canada mournes for another lost.

Wes

 

[Jay4th]

Regardless of how well marked the UN post was, and how well trained the operator was, its (the outpost) proximity to a legitimate target meant there was a danger of collateral damage. We all know how easily these things happen, why just last week a 500 pounder landed on my platoon who were all wearing the right IFF ( I was absent having been in the hospital for unrelated stuff).  I think the point is the UN should have had the teeth to ensure Hez wasn't operating in the area or gotten the hell out.  Teddy Ruxpin and I have similar views on UN usefulness born of long experience.  My sympathy to the Major's family. He undoubtedly knew the risks, but it is never as easy for those at home to understand or accept.

 

[klambie]

I'm unable to listen to this CBC clip to verify, but this link claims that Lewis MacKenzie claims that Hezbollah is using UN personnel as human shields.  He bases this on the recent email from the Canadian casualty. 

http://www.damianpenny.com/archived/007119.html

This would seem to put him largely in agreement with Cdn Blackshirt earlier today, whose post has been ignored by many here.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/47957/post-417642.html#msg417642

 

[career_radio-checker]

Rant On

Bull  sh!t,  Bull Sh!t what ever Israel says is Bull sh!t. The fact they are saying this was an accident and that they are sorry for this incident has just thrown salt on a fresh wound. It enrages me and should to everyone else :evil: :evil: :evil:

At the outbrake of this war I had some sympathy for Israel because they were had pullled out of Lebanon as a goodwill gesture but were now going to have to invade it again because of Hezbollah. But when they began wholesale bombing of suburbs and killing civilians. including 7 Canadians began to change my mind. Then the IDF were quick to release videos of how precise their attacks were to prove to the world that they were targeting military targets not civilians. And now Israel says that the bombing of a clearly marked bright WHITE outpost was an accident when, one of own recounts that they were nearly bombarded repeatedly the week prior and that they contacted  
IDF 10 times, let me say that again 10 TIMES!!! 6 hrs prior to their deaths, telling the IDF that they were shelling too close.  And let's not forget those videos of precision bombing.
Accident?!!!*********. This is nothing short of murder.
And worst of all... worst of ALL. our government... the dead major's government, who he was serving is blindly siding with the biggest belligerent in the entire Middle East -- Israel.

At heart I supported Harper and the realist thinking but after witnessing:
-Israel stopping the bombing for Condi Rice;
-Condi Rice saying she wants to have new Middle East;
-America's refusal to take an active role in the Ceasefire;

A lot of that leftwing conspiracy / secret agenda crap is starting to make sense

Rant off


***Edit for racial epithet***

 

[Pikepusher]

Big Bad John, appreciated your "speculation and rumours" warning.   Reading to-day's Whig-Standard article in conjunction with the 18 Jul e-mail report to CTV practically forced the conclusion on the identity of the casualty.  RIP.

There are two other development indicated on this thread that bother me: links to blogs, and politicking.  Just because something is posted on a blog does not make it the real gen.  A lot of blogs are purpose-driven (and the spreading of objective truth usually is not that purpose,) and there are no rules of evidence.  Just because something is posted on Small Dead Animals does not make it proof of or for anything.

I understood this to be a military/Army forum, and the military used to be apolitical.  So let us leave Conservative or Liberal, right or left, pro or agin' Harper, and politics in general out of it.  Even in Ruxted Group Editorials.  There are enough blogs out there where partisan aims can be pursued.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

And now Israel says that the bombing of a clearly marked bright WHITE outpost

Everyone sure is certain that visibility was good and that this outpost was clearly marked and distinguishable from, say, any number of other white coloured buildings. I don't see what good all the speculation is doing. Let's save our indignation for people who can be demonstrated to deserve it - ie wait for the investigation. Israel is in a shooting war with her soldiers in harm's way - let's respect that for now and just hope no more of our own soldiers are injured in the interim. It's about all we can do.

 

[Kirkhill]

Is now a good time to suggest that we all take a valium, have a drink and turn up the air conditioning?

There's a lot more information to come on this one with a whole lot more questions to be asked as to who gave what orders to whom and what were the circumstances.

In the meantime the critical issue is that a good man has died doing his job.  My respects and thanks to him and my condolences to his family.

 

[jollyjacktar]

Is now a good time to suggest that we all take a valium, have a drink and turn up the air conditioning?

There's a lot more information to come on this one with a whole lot more questions to be asked as to who gave what orders to whom and what were the circumstances.

In the meantime the critical issue is that a good man has died doing his job.  My respects and thanks to him and my condolences to his family.

+1

 

[GAP]

I understood this to be a military/Army forum, and the military used to be apolitical.  So let us leave Conservative or Liberal, right or left, pro or agin' Harper, and politics in general out of it.  Even in Ruxted Group Editorials.  There are enough blogs out there where partisan aims can be pursued.

I understand this to be a forum where many military people frequent. People who are not in the military frequent it also. Opinion is opinion, and as long as there is freedom of speech, why should anyone on this forum adjust to PC speak? No where in the rules does it say that you cannot support a view by a particular political party or individual or media outlet.

That said, the said support "opinionated" must be in reasonably good taste. They do not tolerate political rants nor trolls. I, for one, am quite comfortable with the opinions, even though many I do not agree with and take a polar opposite position.

thank you

 

[CanadaPhil]

Accident?!!! ******. This is nothing short of murder.

Wow! Now that I have seen it put that way, You have convinced me!

 

[Kirkhill]

Phil and Checker, please don't go down that road.

A favour.

 

[tourza]

Some of you may remember this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qana_massacre

There is much information on the Internet about this; some biased, some not. The UN sent a general from the Netherlands to investigate and his report is on the Internet.

Hizballah ( 'hizb' in Arabic means party and 'allah' means God - Party of God) draws its support from the southern villages of Lebanon. Most, if not almost all, of the fighters have families that live in these villages. During 'Grapes of Wrath' in 1996, many of these southern villagers sought refuge in UN compounds/OP's/HQ's. etc. If you were a Hizballah fighter, would you set up your artillery 200M away from where you know your wife/children/parents/siblings/friends are seeking protection?

There are several good books out there that cover the Lebanon War in great depth. For an excellent read about the Lebanese War, pick up a copy of Pity the Nation: The Abduction of Lebanon. It is an excellent book written by Robert Fisk, an Irishman writing for an English paper that lived in Beirut almost continuously from 1976 to 1992. I first read it when I was in University and have re-read several chapters many times over since then. For a real comprehensive understanding of the Middle East and Far East (Lebanon, Israel, Palestine, Algeria, Syria, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, et al) pick up a copy of Robert Fisk's new book, The Great War for Civilisation: The Conquest of the Middle East. At a little over 1000 pages, it's not a one weekend read, but well worth the effort. I have already read it once, and am in the middle of reading it again. I've read almost everything that has ever been written about the Lebanon War and I've found that Fisk is the only writer that actually has the credibility to tell it the way it was (is).

Regards,

Tourza

 

[1feral1]

Rant On


Accident?!!! ******. This is nothing short of murder.
And worst of all... worst of ALL. our government... the dead major's government, who he was serving is blindly siding with the biggest belligerent in the entire Middle East -- Israel.


A lot of that leftwing conspiracy / secret agenda crap is starting to make sense

Rant off

Mate you are way out of line here, way out of line.

Views and opinions are one thing, and I am sure you could have chose better langue or words to express such. In honour our latest casualy of this war against radical islam (yes thats what it is), be professional and have some respect.

You, as I and everyone else were not there and DO NOT know the circumstances.

Wes

 

[CanadaPhil]

.................
pick up a copy of Robert Fisk's new book, The Great War for Civilisation: The Conquest of the Middle East. At a little over 1000 pages, it's not a one weekend read, but well worth the effort. I have already read it once, and am in the middle of reading it again. I've read almost everything that has ever been written about the Lebanon War and I've found that Fisk is the only writer that actually has the credibility to tell it the way it was (is).

Regards,

Tourza

Welcome Tourza!

Since you have come make a point, and you are claiming that you have re-reading the ONLY credible account on this issue, would you kindly indulge us and explain just exactly "the way it is"?

 

[Michael OLeary]

Keep the discourse rational folks, or this thread will start seeing 24 hour lockdowns.

 

[1feral1]

Maybe thats what it needs now. I agree 100%.

WEs

 

[Remius]

Everyone sure is certain that visibility was good and that this outpost was clearly marked and distinguishable from, say, any number of other white coloured buildings. I don't see what good all the speculation is doing. Let's save our indignation for people who can be demonstrated to deserve it - ie wait for the investigation. Israel is in a shooting war with her soldiers in harm's way - let's respect that for now and just hope no more of our own soldiers are injured in the interim. It's about all we can do.

+1

 

[Pikepusher]

Gap,

the last thing I would advocate is "PC speak."  I would push the exact opposite: opinion that based on fact, experience or knowledge, and that is expressed clearly.  Opinion that is not based on these is bullshit, and bullshit was detested in this man's Army.  I trust that this tradition has not disappeared.