RCR red sash

[the patriot]

Hello All,

The tradition of the Red Sash indicates the bond between the Snr. NCO‘s and their soldiers. There are 88 knots at the end of the sash. In battle, the CSM would gather up his soldiers and tie off a knot on his sash. Thus keeping count of the number of soldiers. As for the colour of the sash being red, that obviously is the colour of blood. Traditionally the sash was white before entering combat. When the CSM picked up his men and carried them over his shoulder, their blood would stain his sash. On parade, this tradition and bond is noted by the Snr. NCO‘s wearing the red sash. In closing, it is an honour to wear it!!! Not a dishonour.

-the patriot-

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Gordon Angus Mackinlay:
Ladies and Gentlemen,

In the dress regulations (I cannot remember the PC canadian designation)

We call them dress regulations, thanks.

Warrant Officer Class One (your CWO) holding the appointment of RSM wears the waist belt sword equipment, with the infantry pattern sword, again this is common to all Commonwealth Armies. Those WOIs not holding the appointment of RSM wear a Sam Browne belt equipment, I‘m not such what CWO with a Canadian inf bn wears (I don‘t think there is such infantry creatures in a modern Can Inf bn)

Your last sentence is confusing. The RSM of a Canadian infantry battalion is indeed a CWO - but we haven‘t worn Sam Browne belts since unification. Also, Highland regiments wear claymores (clay beaghs (sp?), to be technical, but universally called a claymore) - and in my regiment, the RSM does wear a scarlet sash - over his shoulder - but only in ceremonial dress. For walking out dress, he does not. In the Queen‘s Own Cameron Highlanders in Winnipeg, the Pipe Major also wears a "scarlet" sash, even in Walking Out Dress - or at least did so when Mikey Coutts was running the band. Our Pipe Major never only wears the sash in ceremonial dress (even when ranked as CWO) because "that‘s what the RSM does."

Sergeants wear a distinctly red coloured sash, as distinct from warrant officers and officers who wear scarlet - call it what you want, but it looks maroon or purple to me.

 

[PRL ER NO]

About the Infantry "Red Sash"

Worn by senior NCO's , Sgt and above, from right shoulder down to left hip.
Worn by junior Officer's, 2Lt,Lt and Capt, from left shoulder down to right hip.

As was taught to me, at a time when I was a young Sgt, many years ago.   The Sashes were first white, in the days of the British "Thin Red Line" and all.   The "White" sashes were stained "Red" with the blood on the soliders on the battle field.   The litters of the wounded were placed and held in the knot at the hip of the NCO's, on the right of the litter, and Officers, on the left of the litter.

Myth, I think not.
Just another story, I believe to be true.

 

[PRL ER NO]

Follow-up related to the "Queen's Scarf".  Queen Victoria crocheted with her own hands 8 scarves at the the time of the South African War.  They were awarded to private soliders or NCO's.  4 of the scarves were given to British, one each to South African, Australian, New Zealander and a Canadian.  The Canadian solider was Pte Richard Rowland Thompson, a medical orderly.

The story : http://www.forces.gc.ca/health/news_pubs/pdf/engraph/OpCel_100th_Anniversary_e.pdf

A copy of the scarf is at the CFMSS in Borden and the real scraf is in the War Museum

 

[marshall sl]

Sgts wear a Scarlett Sash, Wo.s and Officers are Crimson

 

[pbi]

There sure are a lot of opinions floating around here. Here's my two cents worth:

In the PPCLI Infantry (031) Sgts wear a red shoulder sash with DEUs. Other MOCs(non-031) in the battalion do not wear the sash. Inf MWOs in the PPCLI wear the maroon shoulder sash. Officers(and the RSM) wear a maroon sword sash around the waist with DEU. The NCO/WO shoulder sash and the Officers' sword sash may have had a common origin but they are today completely different items with only a limited resemblance. I have worn all three.

The sash for senior NCOs/Officers in line Infantry (as opposed to Rifles) has only one credible theory of origin that I know of. This is the theory that dates back to the Marlburian period during which both officers and Sgts carried pikes rather than muskets. This pike (sometimes caled a spontoon, halberd, etc.) was quite heavy and carrying it on the field of battle was a pain. As a result (the theory goes), the sash was worn from one shoulder to the waist, with a large knot tied in it. The haft of the pike was slid through the knot and thus given some additional support (and freeing up one hand for short periods). Later, the officers in the British Army stopped carrying the pike, but the practice persisted amongst Sgts right through the Napoleonic Wars (except for Rifles). Sometime after that it ceased, except for the Sgts cane which, I have read, is a vestigial remnant of the practice of Sgts carrying a pike.

While the sashes might very well have been useful to carry casualties, we should stop for a moment and ask ourselves just who it was that was carrying casualties about on the battlefield during the time periods in question. Certainly not officers or Sgts. Most likely common soldiers, if in fact casualties got picked up at all: prior to the Napoleonic Wars I think you will find that most wounded just lay in the mud until they crawled away, died of blood loss or were murdered by scavengers. I think that any use of the sash to carry the wounded was incidental: where would you get five or six officers or sgts together to drag the wounded about? Wouldn't they have been somewhat busy?

As far as I can tell (and I certainly defer to our resident SME's here...) the sash has always been scarlet, or red, or some variation of that. I have never heard of a white "sash": I think that this is possibly a confusion with the white pipeclayed leather crossbelts that were worn by most British Infantry Regiments up until pretty late in the 19th century.

I have never heard of the practice of using the knots on the sash to count casualties in a company, although I suppose this is possible. What if there were more casualties than knots?

I think we might want to heed the advice of  Mike O'Leary and beware of military "urban myths". Cheers.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Some additions to pbi's comments.

Non-combat arms sergeants wear the sash reversed, at least in our unit - the pipe major and drum major, for example, wear the sash over the left shoulder instead of the right.

The pike theory is interesting; as an aside, in the German Army, for at least the last 60 years, the Company First Sergeant ("Hauptfeldwebel" or what we call a Company Sergeant Major) was nicknamed "der Spiess" which translates as "The Spear".  This was a reference to 1700's era NCOs carrying pike-like weapons into battle.

 

[pbi]

The pike theory is interesting; as an aside, in the German Army, for at least the last 60 years, the Company First Sergeant ("Hauptfeldwebel" or what we call a Company Sergeant Major) was nicknamed "der Spiess" which translates as "The Spear".   This was a reference to 1700's era NCOs carrying pike-like weapons into battle.

Mike: I asked one of the Germans in Afgh about "Der Spiess": he said it translates more closely to "the Spike" (as in "nail"). Actually, the more common modern German term for the CSM is "Mother of The Company", which as far as I can see is far more in keeping with the nature of the Bundes Heer today. Cheers.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Mike: I asked one of the Germans in Afgh about "Der Spiess": he said it translates more closely to "the Spike" (as in "nail"). Actually, the more common modern German term for the CSM is "Mother of The Company", which as far as I can see is far more in keeping with the nature of the Bundes Heer today. Cheers.

During WW II,  "die Mutter die Kompanie" and "der Spiess" were used concurrently. I've never seen Spiess translated into English as Spike, but of course, I would never argue with an actual German about his own language.

Actually, that's not true, I have - and fondly recall that I won an argument with a German scholar who didn't know that in the Waffen SS, soldiers did not use the prefix "Herr" when addressing their superiors.  Does the Bundesheer still do that?

 

[pbi]

Actually, that's not true, I have - and fondly recall that I won an argument with a German scholar who didn't know that in the Waffen SS, soldiers did not use the prefix "Herr" when addressing their superiors.  Does the Bundesheer still do that?

It seems to vary. Officers appear to use "Herr" when speaking to a superior ( Herr Oberstleutnant ) but I can't say how widespread the custom is. I'll ask my boss back in Kabul: he is a German LCol. You could also contact "Teddy Ruxpin" on this site: he works in KMNB which has a German commander and a large number of Germans in its staff. There is also a German BG in the same camp as him. Cheers.

 

[Steel Badger]

Evening All

Thoughts on Sashes and their colours etc.

It appears to have been common place for soldiers in the late or high middle ages to wear sashes around the waists of their armor to indicate rank on the battle-field. Usually the Sergeants , Ensigns, captains and captains-General were so accoutred. The colour of sash seems to have been aligned with national origin. Scarlett for the English, Orange for the Dutch, Blue and/or White for the French etc etc.

It appears that the sash was once worn around the waist of the cuirass (breast and backplate) or other body armour. With the passing of armour and the adoption of the buff coat, the sash appears to have migrated to a shoulder slung position.

I have somewhere a copy of a regulation issued about 1815 which indicates that Sergeants and Officers (Save those in Highland regiments) would now wear the sash around the waist... and in the case of sergeants to have a stripe of their Regiments facing colour in the centre of of the sash running lengthwise.

I believe that Sergeant's Sashes changed position sometime after the Indian Mutiny as I have contemporary prints showing sergeants wearing sashes from the shoulder while the officers retain the waist sash. (Very like the one my father wore as an officer in the1950's in the RCA and then RCASC)

I agree with Mike O'Leary that we must be wary of myths, and I feel that the long-ago inventor of the one about sashes's being red from
use as "Stretchers, Field Exiedient, MK I, Sergeants for the use of" knew neither history or Sergeant's very well.

"Aye Captain,  Ah'll take Ensign Campbell away the aid post. If ye would be kind enough to ensure Private MacKenize keeps dressed off, an tak' me half pike whilst I reemove ma pack , an' belt an aw so I can remove ma wee sashie!" ;D

I would like to further contribute to the realm of military myth by sharing a rather ingenious one about the origins of the Glengarry:

Apparently, the glen was created as a permanent memorial to the Battle of Balaclava. The sharp side of the cap represent the ridge on which the 93rd stood firm. The tourie represents the blood spilled by the Scot's muskets, and the tails represent the road running down to the harbour. The chief perpatrator of the tale further informed his eager listener's that the famed "double dice" represented the thin red line; the three ranks the 93rd had been in during the action.
Gentle critcism of his explanation did not shift his conviction; nor did actual photos of the 93rd wearing the Double Dice and Glens (in undress) in the Crimea. Apparently all of our accoutrements must have deep symbolic meaning. (If this is so, why has no-one every explained to me the historical significance of the 64 pattern rain-coat?  >  )

My RSM told me to research the subject. The closest thing to a history for the Glen that i could find was as follows. The young Laird of Glen Garry (variously entitled Laird Glengarry), upon joining the Army and/or rising to the dizzy height of Colonel, turned up his nose at the regulation headress of the day; the "kilmarnock" bonnet. Being a young rakish officer (some accounts hold him to be a Colonel of a regiment); he had the Bonnet cut, shaped and resewn onto a chapeau he considered far more striking and fashionable! 
This event is echoed time and again by  many,many recorded incidents of military dress mania for better looking ceremonial kit and " crimes against dress regs" commited by young subbies in the name of what looks "Cool.".
For example, the regulation stating that the Officer's Swords of the 1st Life Guards were to be 1/2" longer than those of the junior Second Life guards or the ongoing race for "Most Impressive Sporran"; a title currently held by the Argyll "Family" of Regiments whose Badger Head Sporrans caused Perry Mason, the RSM of the Grenadier Guards (In 94) to remark: "I know you highlanders have outlandish kit, but what the ^*&* is THAT?"

All this confirms my long held suspicions that the closer one comes to Colonel or RSM the madder one must become




Steel Badger

 

[Steel Badger]

The title "Der Spiess" may also have stemmed from the German fascination with Army of Rome. The Chief Centurion of a particular legion was known as the Primus Pilus (First Spear) and was the penultimate advisor to the republican General or Imperial legat who commanded the legion. He was also the chief disciplinarian and mother to the soldiers. A case can be made for the German's using the title "der Spiess" to convey the dignity and responsibility held by Legion's top Centurion to their Feldwebeln.


"Hurray, My degree has a use at last!"



Steel Badger

 

[Michael Dorosh]

A word to the wise Steel Badger.  Sometimes a new poster comes along and will post such high quality stuff in his first half dozen posts, that the regulars just kind of sit back with a stunned "wow" and wait anxiously for him to post more.  When this happens, said newbie sometimes feels like he had done something wrong or has been ignored and decides the place isn't for him.

Which is a tragedy, since what really happened was that he was so eloquent and entertaining, no one really wanted to follow along after.

I can't speak for anyone else, but personally, I just want to way "wow" rather than sit back in stunned silence, lest you decide to disappear from want of a response...

 

[Tpr.Orange]

wow

 

[pbi]

The title "Der Spiess" may also have stemmed from the German fascination with Army of Rome

This is very interesting. While I know that the Fascist Italian regime blatantly emulated some aspects of "its" Roman "heritage", I had never heard that the Germans shared this interest too. Where did this show up in their traditions and practices? Cheers.

 

[Steel Badger]

Far as I know the Deutschers have always been mad for Rome..prolly since right after Arminius knocked out Legio's XVII, XVIII, and XVIIII (XVIX as you prefer)

They (those Crazy Germans) have reconstructed the Legionary Fortress at Mogonticum (Mainz) and various other sites. They consider that sort of thing national heritage stuff.

I remember being told that the fiat plant just outside LAHR was built on an old marching camp and part of the lease involved excavating the camp upon termination of said lease.

The "Black gate" in Trier is only one of many many preserved Roman sites.

Interestingly enough, I remember from my University days that contemplating the sheer number of volumes put out by Germans on Roman Military History was enough to send me straight to the pub for several pints of muscle relaxant.Thank God i never tried to read em....in "Technical German" no less!

As well, the whole 2nd / 3rd Reich thing?

Reich Mark I  >>>>  All things roman

Reich Mark II >>>> All things Holy Roman and suspiciously German.

Reich Mark III  >>> A heid-case Austrain Corporal and his wierd, transvestite Air-force Chum have distasteful panzerkampfwagen adventures across Europe.


As to when?  About 1500+/-  A good (if dry) reference work is War and Society in Renaissance Europe 1450-1620 by JR Hale (John Hopkins Univ Press 1985)

As the "professional" militaries began to develop in europe.....those who could read turned to Tacitus and the Ladz fer practical advice about being awful to one another.

The Military Experience in the Age of Reason by Christopher Duffy (Wordsworth Military Library 1998) also has a lot to say about the adoption of "Roman Ideas" into the Prussian Military.

On der Spiess

German Army Uniforms and Insignia 33-45 (brian L Davis) Arms and Armour Press indicates that Der Spiess was a Hauptfeldwebel acting in a posn Similar to that of a British RSM.  The parrallel with the Primus Pilus seems obvious.

The role of the Spiess is spelled out in detail on LANDSER (the German Army in WW2), a companion site to Mike Dorosh's excellent CANUCK.
http://www.deutschesoldaten.com/

Left hand bar , clik on Hautfeldwebel


Steel Badger

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Okay, now you're plugging my site, I think you're just sucking up now.

Be careful with Davis, though; he's not really correct if he compares the Spiess to an RSM; the Germans had no battalion sergeants major, rather, each company had a Spiess with no counterpart at battalion HQ.

 

[Steel Badger]

YAY  Burn No. 1

Actually i was quoting a Book (German Army uniforms etc) whichs uses the RSM as an equilent. I thinkwhat i was trying to do was get across the sense that a lot of the RSM's duties are / conducted by der Spiess. I Think.

You are, in fact, quite correct however. I have offered false data.

As penance I shall now consume Guiness.


As fer sucking up..
....naaaaahhh

But you ARE the guy who made it possible fer my CMBO Brits to become Argylls.

 

[Horse_Soldier]

As well, the whole 2nd / 3rd Reich thing?

Reich Mark I    >>>>   All things roman

Reich Mark II >>>> All things Holy Roman and suspiciously German.

Reich Mark III   >>> A heid-case Austrain Corporal and his wierd, transvestite Air-force Chum have distasteful panzerkampfwagen adventures across Europe.

I believe you have your Reichs a bit off -

The 1st Reich was the Holy Roman Empire
The 2nd Reich was the one proclaimed by Kaiser Wilhelm 1st at Versailles in 1871 when, after kicking French ass, Otto von Bismarck had him crowned (before that, he was merely King of Prussia) - it came crashing down in flames in November of 1918
The 3rd Reich, was, of course the one started by the dude with the funny mustache and the delusions of grandeur who set Europe aflame

 

[Steel Badger]

OK, That does it....no more staying up after a night shift...

It appears to play havoc with my spelling and memory....LOL

You are, of course, quite correct.