RCMP New Firearms Required Discussion- Split From New MP Decal Thread

[Booter]

 

[RangerRay]

I still can’t believe that countless provincial and municipal agencies have no problem acquiring sidearms, but it’s Mission: Impossible for the Feds.

 

[Booter]

have you worked inside procurement or seen it? It’s NUTS. I get it’s tax payer money but my god man.

 

[Booter]

I still can’t believe that countless provincial and municipal agencies have no problem acquiring sidearms, but it’s Mission: Impossible for the Feds.

You D think they’d want to get something for all the money they spend rather than cycles of no results

 

[KevinB]

Lop

That's where the challenge lies in converting iron sight trained shooters to RDS. Lots of muscle memory and mental conditioning to undo. I'm surprised the Mounties expressed as an option, unless the intent is to roll it out to specialized units only.

I'd argue it is more an issue with a lot of people who where being sloppy with their draw, and/or had not been taught higher presentations.

Regardless if one is using irons or MRDS a high presentation on plane will allow faster and more accurate shooting from the draw - as well as staying on plane during presentation that helps with recoil management.

 

[RedFive]

You D think they’d want to get something for all the money they spend rather than cycles of no results

I don't think Canadian federal procurement is ever going to be fixed until people start losing their jobs over unacceptable end user results. I vote we start with the TAPV...

 

[QV]

That's where the challenge lies in converting iron sight trained shooters to RDS. Lots of muscle memory and mental conditioning to undo. I'm surprised the Mounties expressed as an option, unless the intent is to roll it out to specialized units only.

Only for shooters with thousands of reps. For the average police officer or soldier, going to a RDS would be an easy transition.

 

[KevinB]

Only for shooters with thousands of reps. For the average police officer or soldier, going to a RDS would be an easy transition.

Even still - most modern instruction goes for a high presentation out of the draw.
One should be conducting a seamless 5 step draw - but it is best to break it into stages for learning, and of course perfect practice makes perfect.
1) Acquire: Primary Hand Grasps the Grip - disengages security features of the holster.


2) Draw - and rotate - a lot of folks get lazy and don't rotate immediately - but it keeps you ready for contact shots - my excuse for not being totally level was trying to align the camera, myself and was holding a remote in the my left to take the pictures.

3) Central (support hand joins primary - unless dealing with contact or control issues)


4) Initial Presentation - sights brought to eye level still inside the body control zone
*don't mind me I am wearing my reading glasses as I am multitasking in my office currently

5) Extension -




Even without a MRDS - the 5 step draw is preferred - as it gets the firearm/weapon into an accurate firing position faster.

 

[RedFive]

Not being familiar with RDS on a pistol, I have a couple questions.

How often do you need to clean the lens of dust and debris?

Does it turn on/off? Have adjustable brightness? Does this require a tool or is it done by hand?

How long do batteries last? Do you have to remove it to change them?

How often does it need to be resighted?

As attractive as they may seem, I fear a lack of basic firearms competency and maintenance puts a pistol RDS out of reach for your average police officer. I guess Vancouver will find out, as will the RCMP if this RFI goes the way its written.

 

[KevinB]

Not being familiar with RDS on a pistol, I have a couple questions.

How often do you need to clean the lens of dust and debris?

I will caveat this by saying I've been running MRDS for about 12 years now on handguns.
Some MRDS on the market I believe are totally unsuitable for pistol usage.

Depends on conditions. Patrol duty - not significantly often - but water, dust etc won't really affect it (depending on model).

Does it turn on/off? Have adjustable brightness? Does this require a tool or is it done by hand?

There are a lot of different sights with different options on that -- nearly all have adjustable brightness - adjustable by hand.
I have 3 guns with Leupold Delta Point Pro's (DPP) on them, 1 with a Trijicon RMR, and one with an earlier Leupold DeltaPoint.
I plan on getting an Aimpoint ACRO P2 for a Glock 19 shortly.
But at this point would default to the Leupold DPP for anything I was going to use in a "work" environment.

How long do batteries last? Do you have to remove it to change them?

The DPP has a waterproof lid that you need to unclip - then you can change the batteries - all the other options need the sight to be removed from the weapon (a no go to me). I switch batteries on my carry gun every month at the 1st of the month, I also do the same with the weapon light batteries.

How often does it need to be resighted?

Depends on model, I picked the DPP because I had inside knowledge of a program somewhere - I haven't had any issues with it - from being jumped (albeit not a static line), rappelling, explosive breaching and a few courses, and duty use when I did that sort of stuff.
I do have cowitnessed iron sights - something I think is a must on a Duty gun. I had some bad CR2032's once - and had the dot die during the Pistol Stress stage at the 2016 USASOC Sniper Comp and had to shoot the remainder of the stage with the irons.

As attractive as they may seem, I fear a lack of basic firearms competency and maintenance puts a pistol RDS out of reach for your average police officer. I guess Vancouver will find out, as will the RCMP if this RFI goes the way its written.

Honestly pretty much every entity that has gone forward with it has seen a remarkable uptick in shooting scores - both in training and on the street. Moving and target moving, and low light engagements are significantly easier IMHO.
When running NOD's you can just use the Dot and don't need any active light source.

Now - some entities have opted for comped guns to help flatten the recoil for dot tracking and faster follow up shots - not exactly what you want for a primary duty gun - but makes sense if you are a carbine armed entity running a secondary.
A Comped Glock 19 fits in a Glock 17 holster...

 

[RedFive]

Summary of Feedback and Outcomes

I've attached the Summary of Feedback and Outcomes posted to buy and sell with the questions asked of industry in the first RFI, and their questions in response to that and the RCMP's answers to those questions.

Of note, I see that the specifically state they're not implementing the Munitions Supply Program (Colt Canada), Canadian content is not a hard and fast rule at this time, they didn't back down from the "safety feature in the trigger shoe", and they intend to roll the new pistol out to members over three years (the RCMP's block in-service training time frame).

Seems to me they already have a preferred option here...

Time frame is still RFP in fall and contract award early 2023. I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Haggis]

Summary of Feedback and Outcomes

Seems to me they already have a preferred option here...

Time frame is still RFP in fall and contract award early 2023. I'm not holding my breath.

The CAF had a preferred option, too and were forced back to the drawing board after Glock complained to the CITT.

Being that Colt Canada (and parent Colt USA) is now owned by the Czech company CZ, how does that impact their participation in the MSP?

 

[dapaterson]

The utility of preserving a defence industrial base via tools such as the MSP becomes more apparent in the current world environment...

 

[Haggis]

The utility of preserving a defence industrial base via tools such as the MSP becomes more apparent in the current world environment...

With no (legal) domestic handgun production capability in Canada and the Liberals doing their best to destroy any remaining Canadian firearms manufacturing anything the GoC - or any other entity still allowed to purchase handguns - intends to buy will either have to be built under licence (and that worked so well the last time DND/CAF tried to buy a new pistol and have the IP rights transferred to Colt Canada) or imported.

 

[RedFive]

The utility of preserving a defence industrial base via tools such as the MSP becomes more apparent in the current world environment...

I'm not confident were MSP enforced the RCMP or any other federal law enforcement agency would end up with the best pistol for the job based on how poorly the CAF attempted purchase its new pistol went the first time around.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Plus the amount of pistols for the RCMP and military, still is nothing in the US pistol market. The only advantage is marketing benefits.

 

[Haggis]

I'm not confident were MSP enforced the RCMP or any other federal law enforcement agency would end up with the best pistol for the job based on how poorly the CAF attempted purchase its new pistol went the first time around.

CZ has a line of pistols for the LE/Mil market in both full size and compact configurations. They already own the IP so manufacturing them here would be an easy solution.

A few co- workers bought P-09s during the freeze rush but haven't taken possession yet. I can't speak to CZ handgun quality or reliability as I have little experience with the brand aside from the a friend's CZ-75 and another's Shadow 2. Shadow 2 is the most popular production gun in IPSC and IPSC competitors shoot a helluva lot more than most soldiers or LEOs.

 

[RedFive]

Would appear to be non-compliant anyways with no (that I can find) variant milled for RDS and no variant with a "safety feature in the trigger shoe". Obviously this could be done relatively easy, but I doubt as quick as the RFI calls for. How far they're willing to go for "Canadian content" is also up for debate based on the wording of some of the responses in the document I linked.

EDIT: looks like its hammer fired too, so definitely not compliant.

I don't know much about CZ or their pistol options, but I would say the vague and non-extensive list of police forces and militaries on the CZ-75 (of which the P-09 is a variant) Wikipedia page (I know not a great source) is telling. If I'm going to rely on this weapon to be at my side at all times and save my life if the moment comes, I can say without reservation I don't give two s***s about the strategic interests of Canada, I want the best damn duty pistol money can buy. The gun we bought because its all Colt Canada could get the IP to isn't it, in my mind.

Semantics anyways, as the MSP has been dismissed outright in the document I linked to.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Not being familiar with RDS on a pistol, I have a couple questions.

How often do you need to clean the lens of dust and debris?

Does it turn on/off? Have adjustable brightness? Does this require a tool or is it done by hand?

How long do batteries last? Do you have to remove it to change them?

How often does it need to be resighted?

As attractive as they may seem, I fear a lack of basic firearms competency and maintenance puts a pistol RDS out of reach for your average police officer. I guess Vancouver will find out, as will the RCMP if this RFI goes the way its written.

This is the one I currently have. Holosun.ca - HS507K X2

 

[Eaglelord17]

The CZ-75 platform (which includes the shadow) is basically a Browning hi-power with higher capacity, DA/SA, and no magazine disconnect ‘safety’.

One of those variants with the ambidextrous safety, or preferably a decocker would be a excellent service pistol which would last many decades in service.

I am a little biased because I own a CZ-75 but I would carry that pistol without any worry of it failing me. Certainly prefer it to any of the more modern pistols I have handled. I can’t speak to the newest variants of it, but I have heard no complaints from those I know who shoot them.