Question on the current organization of the Army..

[MKSheppard]

I'm in the process of gathering material for a Steel Panthers: Main Battle Tank campaign involving a Canadian "peacekeeping" deployment to Darfur/Sudan which of course, gets out of hand when the militas try attacking a food distribution point guarded by Canadian troops, and it escalates into a general "let's mash them all" free for all with the Canadians doing the stomping.

Anyway, I have Isby's "Armies of NATO's Central Front" which details the Canadian Army as it was in 1985. It goes into some detail on how the Canadian contigent in NATO was organized, but I'm sure there have been a lot of changes in TOEs and OOBs since the book was published 21 years ago.

I've talked to a friend of mine who was in the Canadian Army about what the CA would send there, and he suggested:

But basically what would get sent to Darfur would be an Mech Infantry Battlegroup consisting of 1 infantry battalion with LAVs plus an engineer squadron, supply battalion, 2 squadrons of Coyotes (1 Fire Support, 1 recce with Radar/thermal camera survallance package), A field Ambulance unit, Sigs Squadron, Arty Company (if lucky Wink ) and maybe the 1 Canadian Field Hospital if it's not already in Afghanistan (I'm not sure). Failing that they may substitute the LAV infantry battalion for a light infantry battalion with trucks and BV-206s depending on the threat level in Darfur.

While this is a good baseline, I don't know how the battalions and Squadrons are explictly laid out.

 

[MKSheppard]

Thanks for moving it to the appropriate forum.

 

[paracowboy]

While this is a good baseline, I don't know how the battalions and Squadrons are explictly laid out.

this is a video game of some sort, right? Just make it up. You're inventing a scenario, why not just make up the TO&E to best suit it? Wouldn't that be a lot easier for you? And, that's pretty much what the Army would have to do anyway - make it up as best they could out of whatever was available. You can throw in Mech units, Light units, Paratroopers, Medics, Arty, Armour, and anything else that would make the game more exciting for the player.

While I'm sure much of what you're asking is found on any number of open sources, I'm not entirely comfortable with accurate TO&Es for potential deployments to an active theatre beng bandied about on here.

 

[MKSheppard]

This is a video game of some sort, right?

Yep. Steel Panthers: MBT, you can download it for free here

Linka

? Just make it up. You're inventing a scenario, why not just make up the TO&E to best suit it?

I'm a Grognard.  ;D

And, that's pretty much what the Army would have to do anyway - make it up as best they could out of whatever was available. You can throw in Mech units, Light units, Paratroopers, Medics, Arty, Armour, and anything else that would make the game more exciting for the player.

I'd still like to know how they're organized though, so when I design up the OOB, it's plausibly based in reality.

 

[George Wallace]

What we see on these deployments currently are not the normal Bn and Sqn "organizations."  They are 'Plug 'n Play' organizations created at the whims of someone in NDHQ, with or without the advice of those who have done the Advance Recce of the site.  Coyote Sqns are not in their normal strengths or organizations.  So to put it mildly, what the Troops actually doing the job on the ground want, and what they get, are two different things.  They usually do not get what they want to fill their organizations out to what they feel is effective.  They must make do with less and adapt accordingly.  A common trait of the Canadian Soldier, and one that has got him into the mess he is at today.  As he has given the impression that he can get the job done with what he has, and does, his resources and abilities have been cut constantly and drastically since the Peace Dividend started in 1950.  Now, with 'Restructuring' he is being neutered even more.   ;D

So, in the end, you can take the current Orbats of the Inf Bn, Armd Recce Sqn, Engr Sqn, and Arty Regt and cut them down as much as you wish for your game and you should be fairly realistic.   ;D  Don't forget the Service Support people, and build up a large CSS and NSE tail and you will probably have everything correct.   ;D

 

[paracowboy]

I'm a Grognard. 

dude, I have absolutely no idea what that means.

 

[MKSheppard]

dude, I have absolutely no idea what that means.

From Wiki (condensed)...
1.) Napoleon Bonaparte's name for old veteran soldiers. (derived from the French: grogner : 1. snarl 2. grunt 3. growl 4. grumble (râler) 5. gripe (râler), and grognon : 1. grouch 2. curmudgeon)
2.)  In both the board game and computer game genres, a grognard is an ultra-hardcore gamer, seeking reality and assembling detailed tables of probabilities and statistics.

 

[MKSheppard]

So, in the end, you can take the current Orbats of the Inf Bn, Armd Recce Sqn, Engr Sqn, and Arty Regt and cut them down as much as you wish for your game and you should be fairly realistic.  ;D  Don't forget the Service Support people, and build up a large CSS and NSE tail and you will probably have everything correct.  ;D

How does this work out?

--------Begin Story----

Blah Blah, Violence happens in Darfur, lots of people die.

In response to this upsurge in violence, the PM of Canada announces the deployment of a Canadian Rapid-Response Force to Darfur.

The initial planners for the mission requested a full Mechanized Infantry Battlegroup of four motorized Infantry Companies and one Recon Squadron.

However, due to budgetary constraints, and diplomatic concerns over "overkill", the CEFD (Canadian Expeditionary Force, Darfur), was whittled down to just two motorized Infantry Companies and a HQ Unit, plus support units.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

MKSheppard - have you checked out Battlefront.com's latest proposed game - Combat Mission:Shock Force? We're hoping it will be moddable to include modern Canadian stuff.  I wouldn't try explaining groginess to some of the guys here, as you've already gathered.

George is correct in that current force generation is based on task force concepts, so standard TO&E's aren't really as hard and fast. 

I have to say, though, SP:MBT is still too gamey for my tastes, what with the IGO-UGO turn system; too much potential for gamey abuses. I'm thinking CM:SF will be an excellent way to game out some of these types of situations.

 

[paracowboy]

I wouldn't try explaining groginess to some of the guys here, as you've already gathered.

yeah, prob'ly not. Most of us don't see the point in pretending to soldier.

MKSheppard,
I thank you for the linguistics lesson.

As for your scenario, if you're going to get that hardcore about realism, how are you going to "realistically" get those big ol' AVFs and crews over there? I'm asking because I don't think anyone in NDHQ has any idea!

Good luck with your game.

 

[MKSheppard]

MKSheppard - have you checked out Battlefront.com's latest proposed game - Combat Mission:Shock Force?

:dontpanic: Hi Michael! Yes, I'm on BFC's forum too, been around for a while; and waiting for CMSF to come out as well

 

[MKSheppard]

As for your scenario, if you're going to get that hardcore about realism, how are you going to "realistically" get those big ol' AVFs and crews over there? I'm asking because I don't think anyone in NDHQ has any idea!

Well, Canada already spends money on An-124 airlifters to carry cargo around the world under contract for them. IIRC, the An-124 is capable of lifting Canada's LAV fleet around the world. I'm imagining a build up over a few months before the fecal matter hits the fan.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Most of us don't see the point

Hey, you're preaching to the choir here. w00t!

 

[vonGarvin]

I'm a Grognard.  ;D

Dude!  Talk to me!  I'm a SP veteran of 10 years (almost) and Squad leader pumps through my veins!
OK, so you want a SP MBT orbat of Canucks circa 2006?  OK, here we go:
HQ consisting of LAV APC ("Kodiak") for mobility
2 x "Motorised" companies of Infantry (LAV APC Kodiak for vehicles)
1 x Infantry Company
1 x Recce (or scout) company in LAV Coyote ("Lav 25" will suffice in game terms)
Now, for your infantry, select "heavy" infantry for your squads.  Make sure you have "C6 GPMG" for machine gunners in your LAV company, and ".50 Cal HMG" for light company.  Also, give your "motorised" infantry the "Eryx" for AT weapons at a rate of 1/squad.  If you have to modify the editor, go ahead.  For the light company, have the Eryx at one/ platoon (or for every three squads).  For both light and motorised, make sure you have the 84mm "Carl Gustav" at a rate of one for every three squads.
Now, for the "armor", make sure you have 8 Coyote/Lav 25.  1 is an HQ unit, paired with one other coyote/lav 25.  The other six are paired and are subordinate to the HQ for that one "HQ" Lav coyote/lav 25.
If there are scout troops for the Coyote/LAV 25's: delete them: we have but one "Guy in the back", or "GIB" per vehicle
For indirect fire support, ignore any fast air, unless its "allied".  No helicopters either (unless allied).  For artillery, have one battery of 155mm towed howitzers OR 8 tubes of 81mm mortars NOT BOTH (you want to keep this realistic, right?)
I hope this helps.

Check out my articles on http://www.advancephase.com.  I'm on the right, mentioned as author of an article or two.

Happy hunting!

vonGarvin out

 

[paracowboy]

While I'm sure much of what you're asking is found on any number of open sources, I'm not entirely comfortable with accurate TO&Es for potential deployments to an active theatre beng bandied about on here.

thanks for paying attention  :

 

[McG]

The search function is also helpfull.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/24284.0.html

 

[vonGarvin]

Just so that people here don't misunderstand the originator's question: he was indeed looking for orbats; however, in "Steel Panthers" terms, which is quite different from reality, given that the game is a game.  Being quite familiar with that game, my intent was to give him, in game terms, what he was looking for.

Hauptmann.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Just so that people here don't misunderstand the originator's question: he was indeed looking for orbats; however, in "Steel Panthers" terms, which is quite different from reality, given that the game is a game.  Being quite familiar with that game, my intent was to give him, in game terms, what he was looking for.

Hauptmann.

What - without reminding him that since he's a civilian he's worthless?  You didn't even use the words "Walt" or "wannabe". Besides, you just know Al Qaeda plays Steel Panthers.  Why do you hate our soldiers? 

Make sure MKSheppard credits you in his scenario briefings.

 

[vonGarvin]

Well, "worthless" and "civvy" don't necessarily go hand in hand: though in some cases it applies.  Same for some service folks.  Also, for A Q using SP: let's hope they don't get their hands on a motor rifle regiment or else we're doomed! 

 

[paracowboy]

What - without reminding him that since he's a civilian he's worthless?  You didn't even use the words "Walt" or "wannabe". Besides, you just know Al Qaeda plays Steel Panthers.  Why do you hate our soldiers? 

Make sure MKSheppard credits you in his scenario briefings.

I know several wannabe's that I have more use for than some 'soldiers'.

And, since you apparently know nothing of how Int gathering works, I'll leave it at that. Enjoy pretending.