PERs : All issues questions...2003-2019

[ArmyRick]

The BFT is still very much alive. Attention all, please get the facts straight before posting. It is not done on Reserve BMQ, SQ or DP 1 infantry because those courses are too short and other training has higher priority.
The BFT is not all that difficult anyways.
It does require that students complete 8 work up marches leading to the actual BFT. Hence the reason it is not performed on reserve courses. Actually you could do it but you would not be able to fail a student for not completing the BFT.

On RegF SQ, here at M-ford they complete the BFT at the end of week three.

However It is not the BFT that is making the infantry "less desirable" troops.

The SQ course is great for all trades except infantry.

The old QL3 Infantry was 16 weeks and worked up in a very progressive manner. The candidates spent more time on patrolling, section battle drills and other field craft. In this new course development, the troops do BMQ then SQ then DP1 Infantry.  The SQ is good for Log, EME, MP, etc because it gives them a basic intro to infantry section tactics but note I said BASIC INTRO.

The future infantry troop does not get enough field craft training to the desired standard prior to doing BIQ.

 

[X Royal]

Actually, the standard in the Reg Force for your first hook is 30 months (2.5 years)
Ryan

That is the same standard as in the late 70's early 80's. I had to be ordered to put my first hook up.

 

[dutchie]

Thanks, ArmyRick.

Now back to the topic at hand.......

 

[ArmyRick]

Oh yeah, I also agree, we should have a Kick #ss course that challenges people. Pathfinder and sniper are pretty good but that is for the best of the best.

I think we should have a Forces wide Reconnaissance Patrolman course (we run them at battalion level so the standard is usually good but changes from course to course).

The new Recce Patrolman would be done at say Gagetown in both languages and they could make it like 50 day consectuctive course with emphasis on reconnaissance patrols, fighting patrols, escape and evasion, advanced field craft, airmobile and amphibious operations and in this new age, even some urban ops in a Recce role. They could slap a dose of sleep deprivation and hunger in it with a pinch of cold weather to make it challenging. and other unique ideas.

Also I would make it availible for any trade but emphasis being on Infantry and armour.

This would give the combat arms something to strive to acheive beside the pathfinder course and sniper course.

Cheerio....

 

[pbi]

I agree in principle with ArmyRick, although I'm not sure whether we need a separate course, or whether we should "harden" the courses we are running now.

Cheers

 

[tyr]

I'm not in yet but from what i see here I'm thinking that the level of discipline and fitness i expect from my cadets is almost as high as what the infantry requires to pass thier BIQ. So if I don't accell at it when i get to do it I'll be surprised. but I agree with PBI we need to harden the courses we currently have, in the case of the infantry at least. Because when I talked to CWO Warriner of the RMRang he was telling me that my cadets were performing at almost the same level some of the new recruits he's seen are. To me this is extremely sad as my standards are fairly lax compared to the standard expected of me when i joined cadets so I'm hoping that all of you Infantrymen are exagerating and that things aren't as bad as this thread makes them sound because otherwise I might seek a new career path.

                Cadet Warrant Officer Brookes a.

Ducimus

 

[QORvanweert]

I'm not in yet but from what i see here I'm thinking that the level of discipline and fitness i expect from my cadets is almost as high as what the infantry requires to pass thier BIQ. So if I don't accell at it when i get to do it I'll be surprised. but I agree with PBI we need to harden the courses we currently have, in the case of the infantry at least. Because when I talked to CWO Warriner of the RMRang he was telling me that my cadets were performing at almost the same level some of the new recruits he's seen are. To me this is extremely sad as my standards are fairly lax compared to the standard expected of me when i joined cadets so I'm hoping that all of you Infantrymen are exagerating and that things aren't as bad as this thread makes them sound because otherwise I might seek a new career path.

                Cadet Warrant Officer Brookes a.

Ducimus

There is NO WAY that your cadets are in the same shape as reg. force infanteers.  or even reservists. like, I might be wrong here but I find that a highly dubious proclamation.

 

[Meridian]

Well, I dont find the comment as dubious for reservists, to be honest.

Given that the reserves do not have a daily fitness regime more or less enforced by the forces as the RegF does I would be inclined to believe the reservists would have as much (or as little) training as the average cadet... given that the time put into both are roughly equal (are they not, on the whole?) and that physical training is OTW the member's responsibility boht in cadets and in the reserves... 

Also.. is the BFT still done on BOTP? (or whatever it is called now?)

 

[Baloo]

Perhaps do more research into this before comparing Reservist Infantry training to cadets, eh?

 

[Meridian]

Baloo - Im not talking about your weekend ex training.  If we are talking about PT, I dont need to do research to tell you that one-two weekends a month is not gonna make much of a difference physical fitness wise.. its what you do every day.

Many cadets have PhysEd Classes, etc in high school and extra curricular sports... as do many reservists Im sure...  This is the comparison im drawing.

Actual military training is not what I am debating.

 

[QORvanweert]

1. As far as I know the majority of the lower NCM ranks in the reserves is comprised of college/university/gr.12 students. These members all have access to training facilities and gyms at their respective schools and are usually disciplined enough to use them. I disagree totally if you are saying that the cadet PT level is harder then that of the Reserves (QOR specifically). There is no way that a pre-pubescent teen is in better shape, stronger then, harder then a qualified reservist. granted, I am sure there are some cadets who are in excellent shape, as is always the case, but in general we are definitely the victor.
2. Brookes mentioned that he was comparing his troops to those who had just left BIQ. Which means that they had been at CF pt levels for at least one month. More probably because they would have done SQ or another course right before it.
3. The conditions that he compared them under were most likely different. The stress and intensity of a military exercise can not be duplicated on a bunch of civilians. CWO Marriner(?) of the RMrang(?) should contribute why (s)he felt that these cadets were on the same level.
4. If (s)he actually said that, then I think it is in very bad taste to publicise the comment. An allusion would have been sufficient, no posting's or ranks are needed.

 

[ArmyRick]

As for the cadets remarks.

I remember all of the reserve and regular QL3 infantry, SQ and DP 1 infantry course I have instructed on.

Here is what I see as a typical cadet who decides to join the army.

More often than not, they are usually the physically weakest creatures on the course, they usually seemed to be smokers (like that helps?) and even worse, they have a baby and pampered idea about what the military is really about.

Some of the toughest (mentally and physically) and most fit recruits I have trained tend to be high school athletes who competed hard in sports like hockey, football, rugby, wrestling, etc...

Now keep in my mind, this is MY OBSERVATION of what I have seen over 9 courses I have instructed on.

Go ahead and challenge me on what I said.

 

[tyr]

I was not meaning on their physical fitness but on their drill, and even then I believe that it is only true in the most inexperienced soldiers that my cadets are even close. I would never think my cadets were anywhere near a Infanteer's level of fitness. That was a misunderstanding resulting from me having failed to be specific and I sincerely appoligize for it. It was a stupid idea for me to post on this forum anyways as I'm not in yet and I aploigive once again for my comment, and I hope that nobody is to upset over it, it was a stupid mistake and I have learned from it.

 

[tyr]

1. As far as I know the majority of the lower NCM ranks in the reserves is comprised of college/university/gr.12 students. These members all have access to training facilities and gyms at their respective schools and are usually disciplined enough to use them. I disagree totally if you are saying that the cadet PT level is harder then that of the Reserves (QOR specifically). There is no way that a pre-pubescent teen is in better shape, stronger then, harder then a qualified reservist. granted, I am sure there are some cadets who are in excellent shape, as is always the case, but in general we are definitely the victor.
2. Brookes mentioned that he was comparing his troops to those who had just left BIQ. Which means that they had been at CF pt levels for at least one month. More probably because they would have done SQ or another course right before it.
3. The conditions that he compared them under were most likely different. The stress and intensity of a military exercise can not be duplicated on a bunch of civilians. CWO Marriner(?) of the RMrang(?) should contribute why (s)he felt that these cadets were on the same level.
4. If (s)he actually said that, then I think it is in very bad taste to publicise the comment. An allusion would have been sufficient, no posting's or ranks are needed.

I'm sorry about that like I said in my other post I was talking about drill not physical fitness, and actually he was talking about their drill too. And most of the Ranger's new recruits are the type who join and do most of their training throughout the year. Now that I've thought about this it's probably only the one's who haven't gone for their BIQ yet so I'm obligated to accept responsibility for my words and apoligize sincerely again to all whom I may have Offended. And another lesson learnt aswell about number four from now on I'm only going to post when I'm awake enough to think things through completely clearly.


                One million Apoligies Cadet Warrant Officer Brookes

Ps. I hope you have not assumed I am one of  the cadets who thinks tha army will be just like cadet's. I expect it to be a challenge just like I originally expected cadets to be but it was a big disappointment. but I have every hope and a firm belief that the army will be a great and worthy challenge

 

[ArmyRick]

Lets get one thing straight.

Drill has its place in military training and ceremony.

It is NOT at the top of the list of soldiering skills, cadet.

Physical fitness (battle fit is what I call it which means hauling a ruck, moving quickly under fire, etc), marksmanship, weapons handling, time in the field and mentally robust are very important attributes.

 

[Chags]

That being said, and I'm sure ArmyRick can attest to this..  many of the cadets who show up for SQ/BIQ (whatever) think they know drill, and actually show up with bad habits.. (ever hear a cadet call drill.. its more like singing).

It is easier to teach a brand new soldier who has no experience when you don't have to un-teach him first.

and anyways, being a drill-god doesnt make you a good soldier.

 

[dutchie]

That being said, and I'm sure ArmyRick can attest to this..   many of the cadets who show up for SQ/BIQ (whatever) think they know drill, and actually show up with bad habits.. (ever hear a cadet call drill.. its more like singing).

It is easier to teach a brand new soldier who has no experience when you don't have to un-teach him first.

This is why any smart cadet who joins the P Res (or Regs I imagine) will forget they were ever in cadets. They should forget everything they know, be it drill, fieldcraft, or whatever. They should also not admit to being an ex-cadet....just as they should forget they have a motorcycle licence or that they like pizza.

 

[Heathan]

Lets get one thing straight.

Drill has its place in military training and ceremony.

It is NOT at the top of the list of soldiering skills, cadet.

Physical fitness (battle fit is what I call it which means hauling a ruck, moving quickly under fire, etc), marksmanship, weapons handling, time in the field and mentally robust are very important attributes.

This is a great statement ArmyRick.....Drill....Drillllll.....Drilllllllll....thats great...I look nice, someone passes out, we all get drunk after. This is not why I signed on the dotted line. I joined 031 to be a 031 not a garra-trooper. I see more good 031's in trouble and bad PDR's/PER's for stuff in Garrison but take them to the field and they shine. Which brings me back to the "Pink Fuzzy" vs. "Old School".

Finally I thank everyone for the great posts and replies, I didn't expect such a response.  

 

[marshall sl]

This is why any smart cadet who joins the P Res (or Regs I imagine) will forget they were ever in cadets. They should forget everything they know, be it drill, fieldcraft, or whatever. They should also not admit to being an ex-cadet....just as they should forget they have a motorcycle licence or that they like pizza.

Hmmm. things sure have changed with the Seaforths since I left! Forget it all eh? Thats BS
My first Jr NCO course was in 74 .I was16 and still in Cadets.Several of us were put on this course run by the Reserve Battalion because of a shortage of candidates. This was before the MCPL appointment was in use. This course was run by The RSM and one of the CSMs. They were CWO R Plant(WW2Vet) and MWO Parsons(Korea-Kapyong Vet)If you don't know them ask the Senior Sgt there.
Long story short I topped the course.when I joined the Batt.I'm 76 ,I instructed on my own GMT and Inf.TQ1.At the end of the course I was promoted to CPL. I was 18 then.I was promoted to SGT  when I was 22.  
Several other former members did the same as me.Including one of the best RSM's I've seen .PM me and I'll tell you who.
So don't tar them all with the same brush, some great members have come from that cadet corp.

The way some people bash the cadet movement reminds me of how the Reg force treated us reserves in Egypt

 

[ArmyRick]

Don't start with the 70s era reserves. I know the standards from that time period and what they are now. GIVE ME A BREAK !!! You instructed on your own GMT and TQ1? Yeah, I have seen some of the handy work of my fellow reservist from that era.

The training now is much longer and more in depth than back then.

Forget what you learn in cadets? Very good rule to live by. Its not BS, marshall.