Paying Compliments (Saluting, Verbal Address)

[Pikache]

The rule of thumb I go by is if you're on duty, rank and last name as per.

Off duty, if you're friends, first name.

 

[Inch]

As far as Officers being addressed by their first name, I would not only frown on it, I'd discourage it very heavily amongst any troops. It's a very bad habit to get into. While it may be socially acceptable at the ball diamond, it will be deadly on the battlefield. As a now retired soldier, I would advise any serving Officers regardless of branch or element not to fall into that trap, lest you pay for it in some desolate place when you need instant action. By allowing the troops to address you by your first name you give up your authority over them and that can be very costly indeed.

Point taken, but allow me to explain a little. I believe the Air Force is the only place that that happens and it happens for the simple fact that in 99% of the situations that would require instant action, it's all Officers present and at that, usually all Capts sometimes with a Maj or two present. A Sea King crew consists of two pilots, one TACCO and one AESOp. The only NCM onboard is the AESOp and he's not in a position that would require "immediate action" as you put it. All he does is lock his harness and wait for instructions from the front end about what we want him to do. The aircraft captain has the authority WRT the aircraft regardless of rank, still though, the AESOp has every right to speak up if something seems out of the ordinary. It's very open to communication in an aircraft and I highly doubt that any fatalities would have been prevented if we used Rank and Surname vice first names.

The simple fact is that everytime we go flying we face stressful and potentially hazardous situations, our job can still kill us even during "normal" everyday ops. I dare say that the same can't be said for most other trades in the CF on a daily basis.

 

[pbi]

I guess I'm getting misunderstood here.

I agree fully and completely that if a subordinate salutes an officer (or otherwise pays complements) that the officer should reply in a polite and pleasant way: no questions on that: that is the way I like to be treated too by my superiors.

What I do NOT agree with is that officer saying "thank you", for the reasons I stated. He acknowledges the salute by saluting, or if he has no headdress or is in civvies or PT gear, by adopting a position approximating "attention" and turning his head and eyes in the direction of the subordinate. That, IMHO, is how he "thanks" (don't like that word in this case...) the subordinate for saluting.

The comment on the Air Force is understood and I know  first name basis is part of aircrew culture and has been for years. Seen. However, a former Inf Offr I knew who became a pilot years ago told me that where it can cause problem is amongst all those thousands of Air Force people who will never set foot in a plane except as a passenger. Particularly, he said, in situations like BDF, and ground search and rescue under demanding conditions, where they are called upon to do things that may be more "Army" than "Air Force" he stated that he had seen situations in which the "buddy" approach started to come undone.

However, I am a strong believer in separate services, each with their own culture for their own reasons. We Army (esp Cbt A) act the way we do for our own reasons, as do the "blue guys". Where the problem arises IMHO is when Joe the Supply Tech who just came off three years in Wing Supply arrives in Admin Coy of an Inf Bn and wants to call the CSM "Jim". This does not work,  but IMHO is an example of one of the inherent failings of Unification: the attempt to deny that there are separate military cultures for good reasons. As evolution since 1967 has shown us, these cultures are still strong and have survived the attempt to mush us all into one purple blob. Cheers.

 

[thorbahn]

While on this topic, I have a similar question. My question is regarding proper protocol when an NCM crosses paths with an officer in regular civilian life. I thought about this because when I went to get a haricut today, the barber informed me that a Major from my unit had been in just a few minutes prior. If I had walked in and he was sitting down getting his hair cut, would it have been appropriate for me to come to attention?

 

[pbi]

If you are a Class A Res, you are not subj to the Code of Service Discipline except at certain specific times, so the answer could be "you don't have to" depending on the circumstances. However, as a courtesy you could. If, on the other hand you are on full time service, then you must pay compliments at all times unless your unit/HQ/base has issued specific "no salute zone" instructions. For us RegF types, you don't stop being subject to the Code just because you are in civvies or downtown.

Cheers.

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

In the armoured vehicle crews that I have been a part of there is a certain informality when on the tank, especially when on the IC (Intercom).  First names are not always used (although they often are), but nicknames or abbreviations come in.  It makes it faster to talk and is also a product of being in an AFV crew.  Once we are back in garrison, however, ranks and titles come back.  I'm sure each crew is a little different and this is just my own experience.

The whole rank and first names issue outside of unit time can be tricky in the reserves when superiors and subordinates can be peers in their civilian lives.  Go with your gut, but freely using first names is a step down a potentially slippery slope.  I went to school with many of my soldiers in my Troops in the Reserves and it was tough to strike a balance.  As for me, I addressed my superiors as "sir" regardless.

Looking at saluting, I'll fully support those here who have already stated that saying "thank-you" is not the way to return the paying of compliments.  Say something sincere (except for thankyou) and look the person in the eye.  If you know the person then try and say something like "Good morning Corporal Bloggins."  That being said, it can be a challenge to come up with original things to say if you get caught against the flow of traffic during lunchtime on the "yellow brick road" at the language school in St-Jean.  A simple "good morning etc" should suffice in these situations (I learned to carefully time my walks at meal times).

Cheers,

2B

 

[Inch]

The comment on the Air Force is understood and I know first name basis is part of aircrew culture and has been for years. Seen. However, a former Inf Offr I knew who became a pilot years ago told me that where it can cause problem is amongst all those thousands of Air Force people who will never set foot in a plane except as a passenger. Particularly, he said, in situations like BDF, and ground search and rescue under demanding conditions, where they are called upon to do things that may be more "Army" than "Air Force" he stated that he had seen situations in which the "buddy" approach started to come undone.

However, I am a strong believer in separate services, each with their own culture for their own reasons. We Army (esp Cbt A) act the way we do for our own reasons, as do the "blue guys". Where the problem arises IMHO is when Joe the Supply Tech who just came off three years in Wing Supply arrives in Admin Coy of an Inf Bn and wants to call the CSM "Jim". This does not work, but IMHO is an example of one of the inherent failings of Unification: the attempt to deny that there are separate military cultures for good reasons. As evolution since 1967 has shown us, these cultures are still strong and have survived the attempt to mush us all into one purple blob. Cheers.

pbi, that's a great post. I agree, first names have a place and in most instances, the military isn't the place with the exception that I noted in my last post.  Even though I was on the "farm team" as an armoured crewman, I fully understand how and why the army does things the way they do and I wasn't criticising it at all.

 

[Pikache]

The whole rank and first names issue outside of unit time can be tricky in the reserves when superiors and subordinates can be peers in their civilian lives. Go with your gut, but freely using first names is a step down a potentially slippery slope. I went to school with many of my soldiers in my Troops in the Reserves and it was tough to strike a balance. As for me, I addressed my superiors as "sir" regardless.

This does not address the issue of when an officer and a NCO are friends.

I just think if a soldier is professional, he'd know the boundaries and ensure that the boundaries between friendship and professionalism is known between the two.

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

RoyalHighlandFusilier,

You are certainly correct that friendship between ranks is a dynamic that must be considered. 

As an aside, I play hockey (on the Regimental C team) and our coach is a Trooper.  With regards to the team he is in charge and rank is certainly not an issue on the ice and in the dressing room.  Outside the arena the normal rules prevail.  This supports your comment about boundaries, although sports has more clear boundaries than friendship.

Cheers,

2B

 

[pbi]

I have a good friend who is now a CWO. We have known each other since before we joined the RegF, and I was best man at his wedding. His wife and mine are friends from high school days. When the CWO and I see each other on duty, it is by the rules. When we are at each others' houses or I am out shooting gophers with him, it is as friends. Professionals know where the line is.

Cheers.

 

[BernDawg]

AN interesting aside to the Army AF name thing. I re-mustered 5 years ago and found my self as a tradesman on an air base (after 15 yrs as a ground pounder).  When an officer or snr NCO introduces themself as "Bob" or "Larry" the most informal response I can bring myself to use at work is Boss as in "Yes boss" or "Good morning Boss" for snr NCO's. Officers are still Sir or Ma'am.  The whole first name thing just doesn't feel right at work.

I guess you can take the man out of the grunts but you can't take the grunt out of the man.

 

[Radop]

I have a good friend who is now a CWO. We have known each other since before we joined the RegF, and I was best man at his wedding. His wife and mine are friends from high school days. When the CWO and I see each other on duty, it is by the rules. When we are at each others' houses or I am out shooting gophers with him, it is as friends. Professionals know where the line is.

Cheers.

I agree fully with you especially with your use of professionals.  The unfortunate thing is that there are a lot of unprofessional soldiers in at the moment.  The worst part is Pte or Cpls calling Snr NCOs by their first name at work because they use it on the ice.  My wife has several friends of high commanders in Kingston and personally I feel uncomfortable calling them anything other than sir.  I call them by their first name at their place or at church, etc but definitely not at work.

 

[pbi]

The unfortunate thing is that there are a lot of unprofessional soldiers in at the moment.  The worst part is Pte or Cpls calling Snr NCOs by their first name at work because they use it on the ice. 

Yes-you are right, but I can assure you it is not just "at the moment"-this has been around for a while in some places. The problem with it in an Army environment is that there is a much higher risk in an Army unit that the superior will have to order the subordinate to do something nasty or dangerous-a "first name" basis can break down the discipline needed to make that work. Of course, as we have discussed at length on other threads, we have a number of people in the Army who never imagine they will have to do anything along those lines. IMHO the superior who alllows and encourages it at the wrong time and place  is just as bad (in fact, worse...) than the subordinate who does it.

Cheers

 

[mdh]

When we are at each others' houses or I am out shooting gophers with him, it is as friends.

PBI,

Were those gophers armed? Can you verify that with certainty? Did they approach you with hostile intent? Otherwise I would watch what you say in public lest you may end up in the dock at the Hague,   8) cheers, mdh

 

[Meridian]

Also, were those gophers uniformed and seeminly professional? Might cause some issues in the media

 

[mdh]

My best advice sir is to insist that you discovered a network of spiderholes/tunnels used cleverly by a fifth column of jihadist gophers working their way toward and under the US border.

 

[George Wallace]

Then they should call in the USAF and carpet bomb....  ;D

GW

 

[pbi]

I applied "reasonable grounds". And I didn't shoot any of them when they were running away.






OK-well....I did, but......what if they came back? When I wasn't looking?


Cheers

 

[Sailing Instructor]

It seems my question has been overlooked due to the other posts being of a far more interesting nature.  However, I must ask once again:

When O Canada is played while the flag is hoisted (i.e. the time known as 'colours' in the Navy), shall I sing?  I ask because there is a rule saying 'one does not sing the anthem as part of a salute' & I am slightly confused as to whether saluting as the flag is hoisted counts as a salute.  I expect that it does not count: the rule refers only to the regal/viceregal salutes & the reason for not singing O Canada & God save the Queen is that they cut off: it would sound awful with a fraction of the words sung.

Are my reasoning & conclusion correct?

 

[George Wallace]

Sailing Instructor, no you do not sing during the Royal or Vice-Regal Salute. My background on this is based upon three years as an HADC to LGov of Manitoba. Regarding the Vice-Regal, this is practical as well as customary because near of the two anthems are completely played. On many occasions I have seen the consternation of many civilian dignitaries when "all of sudden the music stops".

Regarding who salutes in the hallway, or whenever a group of officers are moving from one place to another, it should be the senior person return the compliments. This seniority is determined by rank, position, commissioning date.

Sailing Instructor

I guess you must have fallen off the top rack and never read this post from back on 26 January 2005.

GW