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Paid parking DND property

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RoyalDrew said:
Using some money collected from parking fees for Snr NCO's and Officers who get a parking spot and pay for it would also be seen as giving back to the masses so to speak.

Parking was never done by rank.  It was was done by TI (Time In).  For 10 years I got to work 2 hrs early every day just to get a parking spot on Artz street.  Not because I was a MS and below because I didn't have the required time in.  Its not and never was a rank issue.

All and I mean all of my friends I see outside of work in the HRM are civilian.  Not one of them ever had an issue with the usage of the parking lots in CFB Halifax.  Or its free cost.  This move is simply bean counting at its finest and most finite.  How parking your PMV at work became a taxable benefit in the first place is beyond my comprehension. 

The other issue is I have yet to see the "plethora" of parking lots around the DKYRD that are open for members to use.  I know of 1 small one on Brunswick St.  It could fit maybe 50 cars.  So who exactly are the CFB Halifax parking lots stealing business from ?

As for the shuttle, as previously stated the HRM Transit Commish would just claim we have taken business from them and its not fair.  Just like PMQs V Local Landlords and the Shuttle Ferry V the Dartmouth Ferry. 

I think its fair to say the two camps here are just going to have to agree to disagree on the validity of the merits behind this move.
 
From another parking discussion ( separate from this thread ) in 2006:

Navalsnipr said:
This is a topic that has been discussed for years and years at the parking pass committee in Halifax and I would anticipate that it will continue to be discussed for the next 10-20 years.
 
RoyalDrew said:
I get your point about duplication of effort but then again, providing a service to young soldiers who might be hard strapped for cash, especially while having to live on the economy in a big city because DND has divested all the PMQ's and Shacks they used to have might be seen as in a positive light as a move by the chain of command to improve morale and welfare. 
The young soldiers that you describe are already paying and using city transit (because they are too junior to have been authorized a parking spot under the old rules).  A free-ride shuttle, created for more senior pers who do not want to pay for parking, would also have the effect of taking current riders away from the city buses.

RoyalDrew said:
Is it a DND responsibility to help the city make money?
Actually, a big part of the pay parking is from policies intended to ensure the federal government does not undercut local service providers.  We have to rent real property at local market rates so as to not deflate the value that local property owners can make of thier resources. It does not matter if it is a PMQ to house your family, an armoury drill hall to host a wedding, or a rectangle of ashpault upon which to park your car.  If DND were to lay-on a free ride shuttle, it would take money away from the local economy ... and it would probably not be long before the shuttle was forced to charge rates comparable to the municipal bus system.

 
MCG said:
The young soldiers that you describe are already paying and using city transit (because they are too junior to have been authorized a parking spot under the old rules).  A free-ride shuttle, created for more senior pers who do not want to pay for parking, would also have the effect of taking current riders away from the city buses.

This is not 100% correct.  And you have to be careful when you use the term senior V junior.  There were very very many MS and LS who had parking passes because they had required TI.  Rank had nothing to do with this.  I watched PO2s and PO1s walk up the hill to Artz street just like me a LS because they didn't have the TI.  And I never paid a cent as it was normal free street parking.

The only people who received parking as per rank/postion were senior position folks like COs and Cox'ns of ships ect.   
 
It's interesting how the parking situation evolved here at LStL in Gatineau, according to my boss.

Apparently, when it was just the LStL building, the attached lot satisfied DND parking requirements for the most part - there was no fair market value for parking because there were no pay lots within a reasonable distance.  Occasionally, high demand would cause people to approach the Canadian Tire and the Hull Casino, and they would rent out some spaces in their parking lots.  As time went on, they opened LStL II with its parkade, and the Casino leases out one of its lots for general parking now to meet the excess demand from the old and new buildings, since there still isn't enough on-site parking.  So, essentially, DND created its own demand and resulting market value where there had been none before.  A perfect example of a self-licking ice cream cone.
 
Occam said:
DND created its own demand and resulting market value where there had been none before.  A perfect example of a self-licking ice cream cone.

A discipline in which we have a lot of SMEs it seems. Perhaps we should open a Centre of Excellence on self-licking ice cream cones? We could house the Directorate (maybe it's a branch now) of Basket Weaving (Natural Fibres) in the same location!
 
Crantor said:
@c_canuck

sigh.  Please explain where you are entitled to said benefit. taxable or not, in any of our regs or theirs.  You won't because it isn't there.  You only lost what you shouldn't have had to begin with.  if I overpay you and take it back, that isn't a cut, its putting things back in order.

You were technically overpayed, now you are not, just be thankful they aren't going after you retroactively.

First this doesn't actually affect me at this time, other than the fact that it's yet again another BOHICA for those of us in uniform. (first they came for the ______. I said nothing....)

In every base orders I've read, you will find instructions on PMV parking, who is entitled, where you may park and a myriad of other parking regulations. Therefore the ability to park on base for free is recognized as provided by the CF to the members.

When these parking rules were established it was determined that crown owned parking would be free of charge. Therefore it was a benefit of working in those locations, based on the definition of the word.

Then the CRA redefined what constitutes a taxable benefit and classified the parking described in these orders as a taxable benefit.

By declaring it a taxable benefit, they also additionally ratified the parking as an employment benefit. The CRA's own correspondence as well as the TBS' also states that the CF was providing this tax free benefit, but neglecting to note it on member's T4s.

At no time has the CRA or TBS ever believed this was anything other than a benefit. Their recognition that it is a benefit drove the whole thing to begin with.

In response to this, the CF has removed a CRA defined benefit that is codified in both CRA and CF documentation.

Your assertion that the CF was accidentally providing a benefit, while codifying all details of said benefit in orders, is ridiculous.

The only required response was to annotate t4s. At no time was the CF required to start charging for parking. This is the core argument. The fixation on: -it was never a benefit; it was an accidental freebie- is irrelevant to the argument especially since providing parking has long been a deliberate and well documented phenomenon.


Simpler terms


The CF established, regulated and maintained free parking for members, then the CRA said that is a taxable benefit, it must be claimed. Then the CF said, no we'll just change our regulations, and start charging for parking.

You may argue that the CF is not required to provide this benefit. You would be correct afaik, that there is no documentation saying they have to provide parking. However, the logistics of closing all parking and refusing to provide it would interfere with the CF’s operation.

So there are 2 realistic scenarios, spend a lot of money creating a parking business to operate within DND, or note the parking benefit on people's T4s.
The CF went with the option that took more money from the members and will likely impact operation, instead of the other that would have taken less and affected the organization less. This is what has people irritated.

I'm sick of the position similar to: oh no it was not a benefit; we accidentally built all these parking facilities and wrote orders for their regulation when we slipped on a banana peel! You should feel lucky we're not charging you retroactively!

It's insulting.
 
MCG said:
The young soldiers that you describe are already paying and using city transit (because they are too junior to have been authorized a parking spot under the old rules).  A free-ride shuttle, created for more senior pers who do not want to pay for parking, would also have the effect of taking current riders away from the city buses.
Actually, a big part of the pay parking is from policies intended to ensure the federal government does not undercut local service providers.  We have to rent real property at local market rates so as to not deflate the value that local property owners can make of thier resources. It does not matter if it is a PMQ to house your family, an armoury drill hall to host a wedding, or a rectangle of ashpault upon which to park your car.  If DND were to lay-on a free ride shuttle, it would take money away from the local economy ... and it would probably not be long before the shuttle was forced to charge rates comparable to the municipal bus system.

And it's exactly this sort of thinking that isn't helping our little attrition problem which isn't getting any better.  It's pretty easy for an officer to spew out government policy when he is making a fat 100k a year.  Not so easy for a young private on 35k a year to sit there and take it.  If I don't agree with a policy, I will do my best to fight and change it, too many are just willing to sit there and take it or they just can't be bothered to care that much. 

Instead of simply telling me why we can't do something, how about working towards coming up with a solution that can benefit all parties involved?  I never said my solution was perfect or if it is the best solution, I don't know that it actually is but to dismiss it without even providing any sort of alternative seems a little weak IMO.     

Halifax Tar said:
Parking was never done by rank.  It was was done by TI (Time In).  For 10 years I got to work 2 hrs early every day just to get a parking spot on Artz street.  Not because I was a MS and below because I didn't have the required time in.  Its not and never was a rank issue.

Cool, if it's done like this, it still doesn't change my premise that shuttles would be provided to those who don't have a parking spot.

All and I mean all of my friends I see outside of work in the HRM are civilian.  Not one of them ever had an issue with the usage of the parking lots in CFB Halifax.  Or its free cost.  This move is simply bean counting at its finest and most finite.  How parking your PMV at work became a taxable benefit in the first place is beyond my comprehension. 

The other issue is I have yet to see the "plethora" of parking lots around the DKYRD that are open for members to use.  I know of 1 small one on Brunswick St.  It could fit maybe 50 cars.  So who exactly are the CFB Halifax parking lots stealing business from ?

As for the shuttle, as previously stated the HRM Transit Commish would just claim we have taken business from them and its not fair.  Just like PMQs V Local Landlords and the Shuttle Ferry V the Dartmouth Ferry. 

Lots of people complain about lots of things we have to do, if they want the benefits, they can sign up for the service, IMO.  This goes both ways, if people aren't happy with the service, they should let the service know by tendering their release and looking for other career opportunities.  From a personal point of view, I wouldn't care so much about having to pay for parking but then again, I am single, have no dependents and I make 80k+ a year but if I was a an NCM with a family making 50k a year, I'd be a little torqued about it.

I also never said to ignore policy; however, If I don't agree with something I will put my best foot forward to try and change it and to lobby for the benefit of my personnel and the organization.  Clearly this is a very divisive issue otherwise it wouldn't be such a popular topic on Army.ca.  That being said, I believe it's the leadership responsibility to put our foot down sometimes and fight for our soldiers, sailors and airmen. 

 
@c_canuck

Again you are letting emotions get the best of you.  just because certain parts of the CF were providing certain benefits does not mean they could or that were doing right.  Savy?

You still haven't actually answered my question as to where this benefit, taxable or not is an entitlement under any regulation.  until you do that, you haven't proven that anything was cut or taken away.  When you go on TD you are entitled to certain benefits under the regs for example.  nowhere does it state that you are entitled to parking as you think you understand it.

You are required to pay parking in certain locations or be taxed appropriately.  End state.

If you can't figure out why after all this or the links provided, nothing anyone says or does will change the way you see it.
 
c_canuk said:
In every base orders I've read, you will find instructions on PMV parking, who is entitled, where you may park and a myriad of other parking regulations. Therefore the ability to park on base for free is recognized as provided by the CF to the members.

Ummmm?  Since when did Base Orders override CAF Orders and Regulations that keep DND in compliance with CRA and TBS Regulations?

I know every Base has Base Routine Orders, and most have references to Parking.  I am sure that no two Bases have identical Parking Regulations in their Base Routine Orders. 
 
RoyalDrew said:
And it's exactly this sort of thinking that isn't helping our little attrition problem which isn't getting any better.

Historic attrition averages out to 7%.  We are not having ahistoric attrition right now.

It's pretty easy for an officer to spew out government policy when he is making a fat 100k a year.  Not so easy for a young private on 35k a year to sit there and take it.  If I don't agree with a policy, I will do my best to fight and change it, too many are just willing to sit there and take it or they just can't be bothered to care that much. 

This change in enforcment was announced nearly a decade ago.  The old CFAO (29-9) directed that parking be paid - and there was outright disobedience of the Order (the O in CFAO) for a generation. 

Instead of simply telling me why we can't do something, how about working towards coming up with a solution that can benefit all parties involved?  I never said my solution was perfect or if it is the best solution, I don't know that it actually is but to dismiss it without even providing any sort of alternative seems a little weak IMO.     

Who are all the parties involved?  What about taxpayers who have to pay to establish and maintain the parkign lot?  How about CAF members who take the bus / run / bike in to work?  Or are the only people who count those who choose to drive in?  (Those who are required for duty reasons to have their vehicle are already exempt from paying for parking).

I also never said to ignore policy; however, If I don't agree with something I will put my best foot forward to try and change it and to lobby for the benefit of my personnel and the organization.  Clearly this is a very divisive issue otherwise it wouldn't be such a popular topic on Army.ca.  That being said, I believe it's the leadership responsibility to put our foot down sometimes and fight for our soldiers, sailors and airmen.

At what point does "This is a legal order, given by a legal authority, that was ignored and is now being enforced" come into play?
 
Crantor said:
Again you are letting emotions get the best of you.  just because certain parts of the CF were providing certain benefits does not mean they could or that were doing right.  Savy?

You still haven't actually answered my question as to where this benefit, taxable or not is an entitlement under any regulation.  until you do that, you haven't proven that anything was cut or taken away.  When you go on TD you are entitled to certain benefits under the regs for example.  nowhere does it state that you are entitled to parking as you think you understand it.

You are required to pay parking in certain locations or be taxed appropriately.  End state.

If you can't figure out why after all this or the links provided, nothing anyone says or does will change the way you see it.

Oh I figured it out quite clearly, I simply think it's BS.  I think it's BS that parking is a taxable benefit and I think it's BS that members have to pay to park when they go to work.  I think both are BS.  My thinking is to come up with a way that alleviates or circumvents the problem entirely and puts more money in the members pockets at the end of the day.

dapaterson said:
Historic attrition averages out to 7%.  We are not having ahistoric attrition right now.

Hmmmm, I never said anything about historic, but our numbers aren't exactly healthy right now.  We are attriting more than we are able to produce is what I have been told or is this wrong?

Who are all the parties involved?  What about taxpayers who have to pay to establish and maintain the parkign lot?  How about CAF members who take the bus / run / bike in to work?  Or are the only people who count those who choose to drive in?  (Those who are required for duty reasons to have their vehicle are already exempt from paying for parking).

At what point does "This is a legal order, given by a legal authority, that was ignored and is now being enforced" come into play?

Never said I had all the answers and I most certainly don't.  My goal is to try and help serving members and employees of DND(Civilians who work for us are just as important) any way I can.  If it means finding creative ways to interpret the rules, so be it.  As for people who pay to establish their own parking lot, well they shouldn't expect the government to fund their parking lot for them.  Governments don't create money, they only circulate it so the government paying someone to run a parking lot or providing some form of subsidisation for them is no different than welfare IMO.  Then again this is the East Coast and having spent 18 years of my life out there, I suppose that would be quite popular. 
 
RoyalDrew said:
Oh I figured it out quite clearly, I simply think it's BS.  I think it's BS that parking is a taxable benefit and I think it's BS that members have to pay to park when they go to work.  I think both are BS.  My thinking is to come up with a way that alleviates or circumvents the problem entirely and puts more money in the members pockets at the end of the day.

Hmmmm, I never said anything about historic, but our numbers aren't exactly healthy right now.  We are attriting more than we are able to produce is what I have been told or is this wrong?

Never said I had all the answers and I most certainly don't.  My goal is to try and help members out any way I can.  If that means finding creative ways to interpret the rules, so be it.  As for people who pay to establish their own parking lot, well they shouldn't expect the government to fund their parking lot for them.  Governments don't create money, they only circulate it so the government paying someone to run a parking lot or providing some form of subsidisation for them is no different than welfare IMO.  Then again this is the East Coast and having spent 18 years of my life out there, I suppose that would be quite popular.

sorry drew, my response was for c_canuck
 
Crantor said:
Again you are letting emotions get the best of you.  just because certain parts of the CF were providing certain benefits does not mean they could or that were doing right.  Savy?

Certainly.

You still haven't actually answered my question as to where this benefit, taxable or not is an entitlement under any regulation.  until you do that, you haven't proven that anything was cut or taken away.  When you go on TD you are entitled to certain benefits under the regs for example.  nowhere does it state that you are entitled to parking as you think you understand it.

As I said in my last post:

"You may argue that the CF is not required to provide this benefit. You would be correct afaik, that there is no documentation saying they have to provide parking. However, the logistics of closing all parking and refusing to provide it would interfere with the CF’s operation."

You are required to pay parking in certain locations or be taxed appropriately.  End state.

No argument, but up until now the only places you had to was where parking was contracted out, afaik, not crown owned parking.

The point is that the obvious and most fair solution was to tax the members appropriately, not create a business to charge for what was free.

If you can't figure out why after all this or the links provided, nothing anyone says or does will change the way you see it.

I can't figure out why after all the posts and information provided you can't understand that the argument is: They didn't have to charge for parking, they could have just annotated T4s.

The question of if DND is required to provide parking as a benefit or not is irrelevant.

They were providing it, the CRA and the TBS recognized it as a provided benefit and said it needed to be taxed in some locations.

Now the CF has decided to create a pay parking business instead of annotating T4s.

This is not a question of overpayment; it is a question of DND running a business off the back of the troops vs just following the CRA and TBS's instructions of annotating T4s to claim the benefit.

DND is certainly entitled to do so as long as the TBS and CRA accept it. But it's still a contentious thing to do.
 
a further comment to the above, Find me a reference or documentation that states DND is required to create a parking business.
 
OK! OK! OK!

We get it!

Military parking in Halifax is a disaster. It was a disaster when I joined in 1975 … and its still a disaster today.
Nobody was satisfied with the solutions in 1975 … and nobody is satisfied with the solutions today.
People thought the system was unfair in 1975 … and people think its unfair today.

Can somebody shoot this thread and put it out of its misery … Please!!!!
 
Oldgateboatdriver said:
OK! OK! OK!

We get it!

Military parking in Halifax is a disaster. It was a disaster when I joined in 1975 … and its still a disaster today.
Nobody was satisfied with the solutions in 1975 … and nobody is satisfied with the solutions today.
People thought the system was unfair in 1975 … and people think its unfair today.

Can somebody shoot this thread and put it out of its misery … Please!!!!

Hahahahaha!  Beatings will continue until morale improves!
 
RoyalDrew said:
Hahahahaha!  Beatings will continue until morale improves!

beatings.jpg
 
Oldgateboatdriver said:
OK! OK! OK!

We get it!

Military parking in Halifax is a disaster. It was a disaster when I joined in 1975 … and its still a disaster today.
Nobody was satisfied with the solutions in 1975 … and nobody is satisfied with the solutions today.
People thought the system was unfair in 1975 … and people think its unfair today.

Can somebody shoot this thread and put it out of its misery … Please!!!!

So, it was a disaster 40 years ago when you joined.  It is still a disaster.  Therefore, it's your fault for not fixing it!  8)
 
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