Ontario Majority Government 2022-2026 (?)

[Good2Golf]

Gas tax is not the sole source of funding to build and maintain roads.

Particularly since most proceeds from gas tax go to things other than roadway infrastructure.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

EV owners also do not pay gas taxes... and put considerably more wear on the roads than cyclists. They may be the low hanging fruit.

I'm not concerned about different modes of transport and their rankings. If you're using the roads, you should be paying for the upkeep. How much per vehicle type is not important until they really intend to legislate fair taxes for usage. Otherwise, it's just academic to complain about who should pay what.

 

[lenaitch]

Gas tax is not the sole source of funding to build and maintain roads.

All taxes and fees go into general revenue.

EV owners also do not pay gas taxes... and put considerably more wear on the roads than cyclists. They may be the low hanging fruit.

And that will become an issue if/when they ever achieve 'critical mass' in numbers.

 

[suffolkowner]

All taxes and fees go into general revenue.


And that will become an issue if/when they ever achieve 'critical mass' in numbers.

they do now but we used to pay our fees to the respective ministries

 

[brihard]

Ironically Ontario did away with vehicle registration fees a year or two back. That captured both ICE and EV.

The matter of EVs not resulting in any gas tax is something I hadn’t thought of but it’s a valid point.

 

[PuckChaser]

If you taxed their electricity use at the same rate that gas is taxed at, that savings gap suddenly becomes smaller.

 

[Eaglelord17]

The people who are local and use bike lanes are being overridden by folks who commute and feel aggrieved that their commute may take longer.

Locally we have had our commutes increased due to shrinking double lane roads to single with bike lanes, all for the 5 bikers who use it to have a private lane.

Not having bike lanes doesn’t stop cyclists from cycling. Not having car lanes does prevent drivers from driving. It also prevents on the street parking which means it is harder to do your driveway in winter and makes it more difficult to utilize your property.

Ironically Ontario did away with vehicle registration fees a year or two back. That captured both ICE and EV.

The matter of EVs not resulting in any gas tax is something I hadn’t thought of but it’s a valid point.

Some states are coming up to solutions to that. Some of my more favoured ones is removing the gas tax and instead charging based off distance. Possibly even charging based off weight/model would be nice. Advantageous for smaller vehicles, not as good for larger ones.

 

[lenaitch]

they do now but we used to pay our fees to the respective ministries

They might be the recipient or processor but all money goes to the Consolidated Revenue Fund. Back in the day when we used to write cheques for licence or registration fee, fines, etc. the payee was the Minister of Finance. Government ministries don't have 'income', they have allocations. A particular ministry or department might get a corresponding amount to fees, etc. collected but that is all internal accounting. Agencies, Boards and Commissions (ABCs) are different.

 

[suffolkowner]

They might be the recipient or processor but all money goes to the Consolidated Revenue Fund. Back in the day when we used to write cheques for licence or registration fee, fines, etc. the payee was the Minister of Finance. Government ministries don't have 'income', they have allocations. A particular ministry or department might get a corresponding amount to fees, etc. collected but that is all internal accounting. Agencies, Boards and Commissions (ABCs) are different.

The check was made out to the Ministry of ....

 

[lenaitch]

Locally we have had our commutes increased due to shrinking double lane roads to single with bike lanes, all for the 5 bikers who use it to have a private lane.

Not having bike lanes doesn’t stop cyclists from cycling. Not having car lanes does prevent drivers from driving. It also prevents on the street parking which means it is harder to do your driveway in winter and makes it more difficult to utilize your property.

Some states are coming up to solutions to that. Some of my more favoured ones is removing the gas tax and instead charging based off distance. Possibly even charging based off weight/model would be nice. Advantageous for smaller vehicles, not as good for larger ones.

I've heard of a number of options being considered, including a (large) one-time upfront charge or an annual charge based on vehicle type. Methods based on usage have their own problems. Annual reporting is honour-based and seen as labour/process intensive, and anything that relies on an on-board reader (like some insurance policies do via the OBD port) have privacy issues as well as data recovery holes.

 

[lenaitch]

The check was made out to the Ministry of ....

Yup, and that was accepted by the banks simply to facilitate processing (the public did it all the time when cheques were king; "MTO", "MNR", etc.), but they didn't get the money. Outside of the Ministry of Finance and possibly one or two others, there is no account code for 'revenue' or 'income'. That's why any allocation a ministry has left at the end of the fiscal year vanishes; it's not actual funds in an account.

I's the same with the federal government, where the official payee is the Receiver General.

Although I've had it explained to me until my head hurts and I still don't fully get it, the federal government, specifically (I think) the CAF CFMWS has the concept of Non-Public Funds. NPF departments like Canex, museums, messes, etc. get to sell stuff and keep the money in their own accounts, buy stock directly, hold money across fiscal years, etc. Although I stand to be corrected, I'm not aware of any part of the Ontario government that can do this.

 

[suffolkowner]

Yup, and that was accepted by the banks simply to facilitate processing (the public did it all the time when cheques were king; "MTO", "MNR", etc.), but they didn't get the money. Outside of the Ministry of Finance and possibly one or two others, there is no account code for 'revenue' or 'income'. That's why any allocation a ministry has left at the end of the fiscal year vanishes; it's not actual funds in an account.

I's the same with the federal government, where the official payee is the Receiver General.

Although I've had it explained to me until my head hurts and I still don't fully get it, the federal government, specifically (I think) the CAF CFMWS has the concept of Non-Public Funds. NPF departments like Canex, museums, messes, etc. get to sell stuff and keep the money in their own accounts, buy stock directly, hold money across fiscal years, etc. Although I stand to be corrected, I'm not aware of any part of the Ontario government that can do this.

maybe, but we made the check out as directed it wasnt my decision to do so

 

[Eaglelord17]

I've heard of a number of options being considered, including a (large) one-time upfront charge or an annual charge based on vehicle type. Methods based on usage have their own problems. Annual reporting is honour-based and seen as labour/process intensive, and anything that relies on an on-board reader (like some insurance policies do via the OBD port) have privacy issues as well as data recovery holes.

Annual reporting doesn’t have to be honour based. Modern car companies automatically track all sorts of your personal data and sell it. Not saying I like that they are doing that, just that they are.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Bold move - I'd heard second- and third-hand stories of doctors who don't like doing long-term care/nursing home work, so if that's even partially true, well, one reaps what one sows ....

Ontario proposes to allow nurse practitioners to oversee LTC medical care

TORONTO - Ontario long-term care homes could soon have nurse practitioners overseeing residents' medical care instead of physicians, a move applauded by nurses and the homes but not supported by

www.thecanadianpressnews.ca

Interesting seeing the last couple of governments, both Red and Blue, expand what NP's and pharmacists can do to help deal with (according to recent stats) about 1 out of 4 Ontarians without a doc. I suspect those stats climb as one gets further from big centres, but it also sounds like big cities feel the same press.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

For road fees the simplest solution is taxing by mileage, location and type of vehicle.

Mileage - is the base factor, all the other factors increase or decrease the amount per km.

ICE cars - pay far less as they pay it in fuel taxes

EV- pay by km

Hybrid - pay more than a ICE, but less than a EV

GVW - might mean the mileage is multiplied by 1.1 for vehicles over a set weight for type.

Type - Commercial, taxi, uber, rental, personal all get different ratios

Location - Address is used to calculate which local government gets a portion to cover road maintenance, based around how gas taxes are distributed.

 

[lenaitch]

Annual reporting doesn’t have to be honour based. Modern car companies automatically track all sorts of your personal data and sell it. Not saying I like that they are doing that, just that they are.

I honestly wonder if you have to subscribe to some network service ('OnStar', GPS, roadside assistance, etc.) for this to apply. I was in a serious collision a few years ago and the vehicle kept saying 'trying to contact emergency services' (or something like that). If manufacturers do track and sell my data, I get no apparent targetted advertising, marketting, etc.

When 'the state' (big brother) is the mandated recipient of transmitted information, I think the rules surrounding things like privacy are different. I can ignore attempts to sell me stuff, use ad blockers, etc. I can't ignore the government (no matter how much I try).

Regardless, such a move would have to involve inter-provincial and international vehicle standards agreements.

 

[The Bread Guy]

... such a move would have to involve inter-provincial and international vehicle standards agreements.

Is that a lot of words for "kiss of death" to the idea?

 

[brihard]

For road fees the simplest solution is taxing by mileage, location and type of vehicle.

Mileage - is the base factor, all the other factors increase or decrease the amount per km.

ICE cars - pay far less as they pay it in fuel taxes

EV- pay by km

Hybrid - pay more than a ICE, but less than a EV

GVW - might mean the mileage is multiplied by 1.1 for vehicles over a set weight for type.

Type - Commercial, taxi, uber, rental, personal all get different ratios

Location - Address is used to calculate which local government gets a portion to cover road maintenance, based around how gas taxes are distributed.

That’s not the simplest. Simplest is a plain incense plate fee like Ontario dispensed with. It doesn’t scale for use, but it’s simple. A mileage-based system would be a monster to administer and enforce.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

That’s not the simplest. Simplest is a plain incense plate fee like Ontario dispensed with. It doesn’t scale for use, but it’s simple. A mileage-based system would be a monster to administer and enforce.

It is not that bad. NZ had (has?) one for diesel powered vehicles. You went to any NZ Post outlet and bought “stamps” 1000km increments and affixed them to a book where you had the odometer reading written down (i think you had to somehow show a starting odometer reading to someone- maybe when buying the vehicle? It has been nearly two decades…

If you got pulled over by the cops and they checked your book, if you had stamps in excess of your current odometer reading, you were good to go. If not, you got fined.

There is probably an App that would do this today, instead of paper.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

That’s not the simplest. Simplest is a plain incense plate fee like Ontario dispensed with. It doesn’t scale for use, but it’s simple. A mileage-based system would be a monster to administer and enforce.

Could all be done at yearly insurance time. already here in BC we take odometer readings to determine insurance discounts, toss in use, power type and GVW and that calculates your fee.