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Offr-NCO-NCM Relationships

It was one of the hardest transitions for me personally. Not only did I commission but transferred from the Combat arms (Combat Engineer) to CFMS (Nur).
The change in social and work conduct was shocking to say the least. Although there is a more relaxed atmosphere as far as using ones rank is concerned there is still no doubt at to who is in charge.
It does not matter if we are talking about in th facility, in the platoon or in the secton. First names may be used between members who have served for while togeather IF it is mutually agreeable but that is a big if.
This also give the extra trump card or shock value if a subordinate steps out of line and the superior rank changes from first name to a more formal address.
Some of my most valuable personal and professional associates are NCOs. I would not have it any other way. When push comes to shove in the Fac I know who is capable and who is not. I know who knows what and everyone knows the rank structure and pecking order.

GF
 
Well, I have to say that relationships between the ranks are nothing but good if handled in the right context.  There are several reasons for it.  One being listed right on our Principles of Leadership;

Know your soldiers, promote their welfare.

This is crucial.  I think every NCO and Officer should be aware of their soldiers personal side.  Nothing overly in depth, but these are people you have to work with, you want them to work for you and if you treat them as a service number and never get into the personal side, they're not going to respond as well as a soldier who knows his Sergeant or Warrant actually has some interest or concern for the troops in his charge.  You're not going to have your subordinates (or vice versa) over for dinner, but it doesn't hurt to ask a few questions from time to time. "How's your newborn daughter making out? "  Not only that, but if you stay strictly in your circle of peers, you can't really get a feel of the pulse of your troops.  After the uniform comes off, you're name is Dave and his is Micheal.  He has a wife named Sharon and a son named Christopher.  Just because at work, by the chain of command you may be his superior, but on civvy street, you're not superior - you're both equal men.  I've worked for numerous Sgt's, WO's and Officers who believed in this and I appreciated it and would work a little harder for them. 

I don't believe Officers-NCO's & NCM's should be pals after work (Too many conflicts of interest if they are in your Unit or CoC) but I know I sure don't enjoy having some Sgt., WO or Officer seeing me in Wal-Mart with my wife and son and saying "Corporal......"  People who insist on wearing their rank as a badge on their NorthFace coat have a few issues.  There's a time and place for everything...... including showing the human side.  On a side note, if you meet someone in your hometown on leave and start shooting the sh!t and it turns out he's a Corporal and you're a WO, are you going to abort the conversation and leave?  If he ain't in your CoC, Unit or trade, I see nothing wrong with being social. 

My .02
 
My personal policy was always "Firm, fair, friendly" in that order.  An officer has to understand that he is more of a management unit, not a college.  Not to say that you should be aloof and dickish to your men, just know when to pull pin.  If you are having a smoker at the end of an ex, then have some bevies with the lads for sure.  But if you are knocking off at the end of a parade night, and the troop is going to a bar, best skip the fun.  Plus, don't forget--if things go to a dump, the most ranking person will be held responsible for everyones actions. 
A good officer will buy his troop a round at functions, or spring for a toast to the Queen.
 
Sheesh. I forgot all about this thread. :D

The key thing that most seems to say is, don't forget to be human and use rank as an excuse to stop having relationships.

Rank is artificial. Humanity is not.
As long as both parties know where they stand in the food chain and how to conduct themselves professionally, what's wrong with being pals?
 
It's pretty interesting reading the comments and then checking the profiles of the posters. I was expecting what exactly is happening. The reg force has a stricter view than the Res for obvious reasons.

Very interesting.
 
2023 said:
It's pretty interesting reading the comments and then checking the profiles of the posters. I was expecting what exactly is happening. The reg force has a stricter view than the Res for obvious reasons.

Very interesting.

Great minds think alike (and fools seldom differ). I did the same (matched comments to profiles), and came to the same conclusion. And when you compare elements (army, air, sea) you see a similar pattern.

Al
 
2023 and Allan

Your percieved 'Demographic Survey' is wandering away from the Topic.  We have been down that 'Road' before and we all know where it will lead.  Let's just concentrate on 2023's original questions on Offr-NCO-NCM Relationships when he reactivated this thread and leave other 'divisions' out of the equation.
 
From my limited experience (IAP/BOTC/SLT/ULO dealings), a degree of jovial interaction never hurts but the maintenance of the officer-troop gap is essential to maintaining the image of the officer. I found that too much friendly interaction with superiors led to some loss of perspective by both sides.

I think drilling the "officers are the superior, so act like it" mantra into the Ocdts can do some harm, though, as I found some of my fellow human-shields gave it a little bit too much credence when establishing their attitudes towards the troops - with some, there was a definite attitude of inherent aristocratic superiority (not of rank, but of intelligence, ability, etc) that seemed fuelled by an over-subscription/misinterpretation of doctrines on the nature of officers, NCOs, NCMs, and the reasoning behind the commissioned-NC gap. Of course, I suspect they'll get sorted out pretty quickly by their first warrant.
 
Well, as much as I hate to skew the stats...  ;)

I have always been more comfortable in a "stratified" world than not. I was "at home" in my years as a TSM. I loved being a Snr NCO. I prided myself in not fraternizing up nor down, and keeping professional lines drawn.  So much so that 9 years after my release, I still practice it in my civvie job. I am not buds with my employees, I don't go golfing with the President. Years later, I still call my old BSM "Sir" when I see him. I met Maj Baker for a coffee one day, and wouldn't call him by his first name - called him Sir. Of course, that's just me. Being raised by an RSM helped, I am sure  ;)
 
I think drilling the "officers are the superior, so act like it" mantra into the Ocdts can do some harm, though

If that's what is going on, somebody somewhere didn't get the memo. That's not how an OCdt should be taught.

As an officer, your job is primarily to make decisions based on the situation and your commanders aim & intent, and then see that decision carried out (either until it is successful, or it is discovered that the plan of action chosen is suboptimal, at which time you are to come up with a new plan and execute that one to successful conclusion)

Part of that execution is convincing your subordinates that the plan is a good one and getting them to carry out their roles in the plan. Having a superior rank is a tool that helps this along. But it is not the *primary* tool. The primary tool in your leadership armoury is the confidence your men have in you and your decisions.

There are many, many things that go into building that confidence; most of them out of scope for this discussion. Some of them are acting confident, cool, and decisive, no matter the circumstances (an exited, panicy vacillator does nothing to inspire confidence in his decisions)

But there is a big difference from "decisive and confident" and "superior". There is nothing inherent in being an officer that makes you "superior" to your men. In a Reseve unit, it is not at all uncommon to have soldiers working for you who are better educated, better paid, and who come from more elevated levels of society. And certainly, the Quarter Inch Admiral stripe is no indication of superior IQ.....

An officer, especially an officer cadet, who puts on airs and acts all hoighty-toighty doesn't Get It. That's not what this is about. Similarly, an officer who panders to his men, sucks up to them, and tries to be their best buddy also doesn't Get It. Instead, you need to cultivate a manner that states "I know what I am doing, I will listen to what you have to say (if we have time) and not every idea must be my idea, but ultimately I am in charge and I will make the decisions".

It's hard to put into words... but when one is in the presence of someone who Gets It, one can usually tell. Emulation of good officers is never a bad plan.

Excessive familiarity poisons this. An officer must retain a certain professional distance, and the distance will follow you for the rest of your life. An officer is always an officer, no matter if he is in uniform or in his skivvies. There are times when the formality can be relaxed somewhat, but it never really goes away.

I and my troops are not on a first name basis. If we meet in public, in civvies, I am Lt, Mr, or Sir. It's not something that I'm prepared to make a big fuss over... but if you have the attitude right, it's something the troops will do automatically anyway (and I count your troops being excessively familiar as a danger sign that you are doing something wrong). Similarly, even though I have the right to use first names when I address them, I choose not to, because again, it establishes that little bit of professional distance (and seems unfair to me). Rank is always appropriate (there no shame in having a military rank) but in social situations where bringing up rank may be a little awkward or clunky, "Mr" works just fine.

The guys I really feel for are those commissioned out of the ranks. It's tough to go from being Private Numpty to OCdt Numpty. One second you're one of the boys, the next you're the little Boss - and it's hard to tell where to draw the line between excessive familiarity and Mad With Power. That's something that comes with time and experience, and usually results in a few bruised egos along the way.

Bottom line though, anybody who is teaching an OCdt to act "superior" - or witness one doing so with out stepping in to correct the issue, is doing them no favours.

DG
 
I think there are many other ways to quickly breed contempt than being too friendly with the troops

ie.
Standing behing me asking pointed questions for hours at a time, when you have never been in my place before, because you currently have nothing better to do and figure you can make me more efficient at my job. Some of us don't see it that way, some of us see it as a reasons to jack you up fishing trip.

Ordering me to "Just Make it Happen" before or even after I've explained why I need something to change in order to carry out some orders but you can't be bothered to think about the problem.

Saying "We'll have to sort that out", when in reality, they will be no where near me and mine while we do the sorting out at great hardship to us without even a nod in our direction for our efforts. Usually in the rain and mud with diesel fuel while you sit in an office with a coffee. No I don't want you to help, because when I get crud in my eyes or stub a digit it's nice to be able to curse, just don't pretend you're helping.

Micromanaging me without going through my chain of command, I don't want an Lt telling me what to do every 5 minutes without my Sgt knowing. Come to think of it, neither does he.

Disregarding the fact that I'm not in your chain of command... I don't mind helping out, but don't assume that because you don't know what I'm doing, that it's not important and therefore can carry your bags to your accomidations (Brit in this case)

Don't correct a SNCO with twice the time in as you in front of his troops.... EVER

Don't ask how things are going unless you really want to know.

No the troops are not happier when they are busy. No really I'm serious, after 12 hours of constant activity, it's nice to sit down and have a coffee for 10 minutes, better yet it would be nice to have a nap at that point, cause it's dark now, and we're gonna get tasked for a recce in a minute.

One man, one kit, if you want that damn cot/lantern/heater/coffee maker you carry it and police it, I've got enough on my plate already thanks.
 
My first posting as a no hook Private Med tech was with the Navy and Air Force.  I worked closely and associated with Medical and nursing officers everyday.  It was a very friendly environment and a great working team.
  I'm now posted to Petawawa where NCM's have very little contact with our Officers, except for the occasional salute in the parking lot.  I have been with this unit for 8 months and tonight I couldn't tell you my Commanding officers name. Today's O group points included possible new saluting areas within our warehouse.  The Army is a different place for better or worse I'm not sure but I would rater follow someone I know and respect than a stranger.
 
Adam said:
My first posting as a no hook Private Med tech was with the Navy and Air Force.  I worked closely and associated with Medical and nursing officers everyday.  It was a very friendly environment and a great working team.
  I'm now posted to Petawawa where NCM's have very little contact with our Officers, except for the occasional salute in the parking lot.  I have been with this unit for 8 months and tonight I couldn't tell you my Commanding officers name. Today's O group points included possible new saluting areas within our warehouse.  The Army is a different place for better or worse I'm not sure but I would rater follow someone I know and respect than a stranger.

Yeah, because you will have to follow alot of Doctors on the battlefield or on Operations. Weak arguement IMHO
 
c_canuk said:
Don't correct a SNCO with twice the time in as you in front of his troops.... EVER

Should a snr NCO correct an offr in front of his troops ? Does time in automatically make someone infallable? So, when a snr NCO is in front of the troops and is doing/saying something wrong/dangerous should the offr (or for that matter, anyone) let it pass until they have a moment alone? What if the offr has more time in than the snr NCO?

Correction of faults by anyone should not be done in public view. This being said, if a person is doing something that could put people in danger "here and now" is the right time to make corrections.

RecceDG said:
The guys I really feel for are those commissioned out of the ranks. It's tough to go from being Private Numpty to OCdt Numpty. One second you're one of the boys, the next you're the little Boss - and it's hard to tell where to draw the line between excessive familiarity and Mad With Power. That's something that comes with time and experience, and usually results in a few bruised egos along the way.
CFRs are Sgt and higher (and as of a few years ago Mcpl) so they were already the boss. It isn't that far of a leap. These people would have been a Cpl, been made a MCpl and then been put in charge of the people who moments ago were their peers. It is called professionalism. Many of my friends from when I was a Cpl are now Sgts and WOs. Can these people DS me on phase trg? Sure they can as we are professionals. When I was a MCpl and had to give orders to guys I had been Cpls with for years was there any problems? No as we are professionals. When a person joins the army as an officer, their experience is limited to books and movies for the most part. A person who was in the troops has had the benefit of seeing throughout the years what makes both a good and bad leader. This exposure helps them figure out what kind of leader they want to be.

Tim
 
A bit off topic...but;

I remember a thing our Squadron used to do when New Troop Officers would come to us while we were on Fall-ex. They would arrive on a Helicopter and would be dropped off a few clicks away from camp. Then once we had word they would soon arrive, we would exchange shirts...so the Major would actually be a Trooper, and the Trooper was actually the Major, Techs would be Tankers etc. etc. Then that night we would put on a welcome smoker for the Officers and everybody would have fun.

The following morning, we would have a muster parade with everyone wearing their proper attire. A great icebreaker, and the looks on the faces was sooo funny. After that, the Troop Warrants would "guide" the Officers until they knew their stuff, and then they would gradually take over the Troop. Armoured Officers always seemed to be glad that they were eased in rather than to take Command right away..almost as if they were told this was the best way to integrate.

Anyhoo, just an old tale...

Gnplummer :cdn:
 
Relationships should be borne out of respect both vertically and horizontally through the ranks.  I'll stick with 'vertically' in keeping with the thread's subject.

A number of issues come into play, including personal experience levels, responsibilities and trusts, and the nature of the particular environment (which I will address in a manner that I feel is in keeping with the intent of this thread without digressing.)

One of the issues that seems to come to the fore is the experience that a member may have accumulated before being placed in a position of responsibility for the effective  completion of a task or mission all the while ensuring the welfare of those for whom one is responsible.  The young Platoon Commander and the experienced Senior NCO Section Commanders within an infantry company, for example, where the experience gap may be greatest represents a different situation than an OC or CO's relationship with his or her CSM/FWO or RSM/SWO/Cox'n. 

The first example (Pl Comd/Sect Comd) is perhaps the most challenging on a personal level as the young officer has little practical experience upon which to base his or her command decisions.  At this point, the young officer would profit from actively seeking his/her NCO's advice in conducting particular tasks, then choose an appropriate course of action having considered all factors, clearly including the experienced input from the NCO.  This is certainly a point where the officer/NCM relationship has the potential to head South in a hurry...a close-minded, headstrong officer looking to effect his/her recently endowed command position on the troops through the chain of command is not a good way to start, nor equally is a senior NCO trying to bully or prove superiority of his/her greater tactical experience to the young sub-altern. 

Later in the careers of both senior ranks and officers, the relationship can be a mutually respectful and beneficial relationship.  I have had much wisdom passed to me by officers senior to me in rank and experience, but I have also had the great fortune to benefit from the wisdom of excellent NCMs as well.  An officer would be foolish indeed to not only not consider but fail to actively seek advice from his/her senior NCMs.  As well, never overlook the opportunity to learn from situations in dealing with even the most junior of ranks...they may not know they are passing on valuable experiences but I have picked up much in dealing with junior members even just in terms of interacting with them directly or through observation from a bit of distance.  No one, whatever their rank, should be so arrogant as to believe they have nothing to learn from the experiences of others, no matter the other member's rank!

My second point regards responsibilities and trusts.  As an officer, none of my actions should betray the responsibilities I have to those whom I command and for whom I am ultimately responsible.  Some responsibilities are very clearly delineated in a number of regulations, orders and directives -- they are not negotiable.  If an order says thou shalt not [  ]...it isn't done...period.  This ensures that no "downward" trusts are betrayed.  Those NCMs under my command have the right to trust without question the conduct of my actions.  When issues are not so clear cut, however, is where professional rubber truly hits the road, and it is here that the relationship between officer and NCM is critical to ensuring the welfare of those members within the chain of command.  This is perhaps where some of the situations that others have mentioned may occur and where experience and judgement fill in the multiple shades of grey that don't neatly exist in a black and white world.  Having a unit beer call after an exercise and buying a first round for the troops...absolutely.  Don't, however, place the troops in the awkward position of hanging around, round after round, and not taking your leave when it's time to let the troops have time to themselves and unwind -- this could lead not only to an implied acceptance of a more familiar relationship between NCM and officer than should exist, but potentially impact in a negative manner the trust that soldiers have in an officer's ability to effect their command in a firm but fair manner.

Thirdly there is no doubt that there are environmental differences in how the NCM-officer relationship unfolds.  I won't stray too far out of my lane except to say that my impressions from speaking with other officers and NCMs is that the Navy maintains a very traditional NCM-officer relationship and that the Army, on the whole, while perhaps not as "traditional"/rigid as the Navy, has strong beliefs about the relationship and in some branches definitely more so than in others. 

Regarding the relationship between NCMs and officers in the Air Force, I think it would be hard for anyone to argue that there isn't a less formal relationship.  Yes, I have used first names in an aircraft with NCOs whom I trust with my life to ensure the airworthiness of the machine I am flying us in, especially where a first name immediately and unquestioningly grabs hold of the attention of the person you want to be paying attention to what you're saying.  This is especially true where SA around the aircraft (like on top of a building at night, on NVG, with wires and aerials all over the place maintaining precise hover within half a rotor separation horizontally and far less vertically with other soldiers depending on you to put them on a platform literally only several feet in either dimension) is critical to the safety of all personnel involved.  Some can judge me on that, but there is literally sometimes not enough time to verbalize, "Master-Corporal Bloggins, moving obstacle on the left, clear me to move right three feet" and "Bob, clear me right three" is all you have time to say.  I give that NCO the courtesy when back on the ground, and in especially in front of other NCMs, to call him by the rank he has worked hard to be awarded/promoted to.  I have no issue with that example occurring in the revers either...the mark of professionals, either NCM or officer is knowing the time and place.  I have not experienced any issues with those NCO's with whom I have such a relationship with, nor have they voiced concern to me in return...time and place.  In other aspects of squadron life, I treat each member with respect for their skills and conduct in accomplishing their individual tasks in support of the unit's accomplishment of its mission.  Outside the aircraft, the most informal I may get with NCMs in "guys" or "gents" [if no women around] or "folks" [mixed company].  I'm sure there will be some who may not agree with my approach, but then again, I'm not asking anybody to do so.  I think that mutual respect, rank notwithstanding, is a quality that gives the CF the overall reputation of quality.

On the final point that was mentioned by some, correction of facts or procedures...again, respect should come into play here.  I would not think of correcting an NCM in front of subordinates or superior NCMs unless there was an immediate issue of [flight] safety [in my world] or clearly inappropriate behaviour.  Anything corrective should be respectfully be done behind a closed door...I do believe in the "Praise in public, punish in private" tenet.  Only the most extreme case would make me consider otherwise, and I can say that in 21 years of service, I have not had any issue that had to be dealt with in public.

Mein 2¢

Cheers,
Duey
 
Very good post, Duey.

I think that there is always a certain time and place for certain things, and when you are in your vehicle/aircraft/spacecraft, you are essentially on your own doing your thing, and talking to people as "humans" rather than faceless individuals becomes the norm. However, once you are back on terra firma/base camp/garrison, you are back to being a part of the machine, and first names/nicknames should get dropped.

Professionalism is the key word here, and respect. A problem that many people have is determining that respect (for the individual) is earned, although respect for rank is automatic. Abusing this concept is where things go to hell in a handbasket. Too many people feel that they should get respect, yet show none to others, and then wonder why they are held in contempt. The best officers and NCO's that I have ever had the pleasure of serving with understood the concept of gaining respect, and showing respect. The worst, well they just never got it (in many ways).

An aspect of professionalism that many people don't "get" is that you can't have it both ways: you can't be the big bossman, and also be "buds" with everyone. I despise seeing officers (and NCO's for that matter) trying to be one of the "guys" (smokin' and jokin'), and then have to play the officer (or NCO) card when something happens that they feel merits it (somebody dares to make a joke at their expense, for example). There's a name for what needs to be maintained: professional distance. If a person can't accept this, there are other lines of work that they should pursue.

Al

Al
 
Great post Duey,
For those who just skim, here is what I think you need to know from his post,

No one, whatever their rank, should be so arrogant as to believe they have nothing to learn from the experiences of others, no matter the other member's rank!
and,
...time and place.


...and this can be applied in every facet of ones life, not just in the military.


 
To sum up the reasons why Officers and NCM's don't fraternize here they are:

An Officer can not  effectively lead his troops if he can not properly maintain good order and discipline. An Officer can not properly discipline the people he fraternizes with, there's a conflict of interest.

How can an officer be drinking buddies with a guy on the one hand, then discipline him next?? It doesn't work, there are biases.

This is also why different ranks have different messes, it's unprofessional for a subordinate to see his superior piss drunk or to get piss drunk with him or her.

 
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