Offr-NCO-NCM Relationships

[Infanteer]

Having a few drinks with your troops is okay, but going out with them is a bad idea. How can an officer realistically expect to enforce discipline within his platoon if they show up looking like **** and he was out with them the night before.

The more professionalism within a small unit, the more relaxed the relationships can be up and down the chain, but we should never forget that we are soldiers first, and a central part of our way of life is the hierarchy of what we are a part of. I remember how poorly we thought of the incoming company overseas because the troops were calling their Warrant Officers by their first names. Doing so can lead to things getting sloppy when play time ends.

I remember one of the senior gunners posting an excellent reply to this topic; I‘ll try and find it and post it here.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Padraig OCinnead:
[qb] Didn‘t the German army of WWII implement something along those lines? I mean did they start recruiting from combat experienced Sgts (or similar ranks) to turn them into offrs? Taking the top 25-20% of applicants and put them through offr training and accept only the best of those graduates? [/qb]

The German Army had far fewer officers than we did. In a German infantry company, often only the company commander was an officer; all the platoons were led by NCOs. At full establishment, only two officers were in the rifle company, and a normal peacetime company had two platoons commanded by NCOs with one platoon led by an officer.

Contrast this to the Canadian Army, where we experimented with Platoon Sergeants Major in 1939, hated the idea (along with the British), and ended up commissioning all the platoon commanders. So every rifle company had 5 officers - an OC, a 2 i/c and three platoon commanders.

Outside the infantry, there were fewer officer jobs in the German Army also. The really important jobs were left to the officers, while NCOs had a lot the ‘lesser‘ responsibilities within troop units.

They could afford to be picky, and they generally did not like commissioning directly from the ranks. The ‘normal‘ progression for an officer cadet was to have served in the ranks first, then as an Officer Aspirant (offizieranwärter)in a troop unit, and moving between classroom courses and field experience, until finally being commissioned. Senior NCOs did go this route, but it wasn‘t as simple as our present day Canadian CFR, where you are a WO one day, and commissioned as a captain the next with a promise to take a qualifying course when you got the chance.

The Germans had several ‘weird‘ ranks for aspiring officers (such as Fähnrich) that do not have any equivalents in the Canadian Army. Like so much else, they did things very differently than we did.

Our officers started (and still do) as Officer Cadets and did not get any front line field experience during their training as was the case with German officer candidates.

 

[Spr.Earl]

Ah Michael the main reason in the German Army not commisioning from the Rank‘s was the ever present class system at the time.
You still had the Prussian etho‘s ruling.
Even Rommel was looked down upon by some because he did not go to the right school‘s,did not have the Hiedelburg Scare etc etc.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Spr.Earl:
[qb] Ah Michael the main reason in the German Army not commisioning from the Rank‘s was the ever present class system at the time.
You still had the Prussian etho‘s ruling.
Even Rommel was looked down upon by some because he did not go to the right school‘s,did not have the Hiedelburg Scare etc etc. [/qb]

This isn‘t true at all. Under National Socialism, everyone was considered to be of the same class. The SS even did away with addressing their superiors as "Herr", they just used the rank title.

German infantry companies tended to be very close to their officers, usually nicknaming the OC "Chief". There was a sense of cameraderie in German units that other armies like the British or US were often unable to emulate on the same scale.

For example, German officers were permitted to eat off of tin plates in the field rather than out of mess tins, but it ended there. There were no such thing as "officers messes" as in the Canadian Army, and German officers ate the exact same food the men ate while in garrison.

In WW I, German officers had to be addressed in the third person (ie "Herr Major is correct" rather than "You are correct, Herr Major"), but by WW II this had all been done away with.

AFAIK, university education, the prefix "von", or ownership of a tract of land were not requirements for being a German officer.

Not to say that class systems were totally abolished with in Nazi Germany, but Party members tended to get the favours regardless of their wealth or lineage, rather than the landed aristorcracy class.

And in the Army, all of that rarely mattered. Unless you had some specific cases in mind? I don‘t think Rommel was ever really held back; in fact, due to his National Socialist leanings and his direct line to Hitler, he achieved a favoured status right up until the Bomb Plot and his implication in it. Rommel got away with murder in North Africa, disobeying and exceeding orders from the first week he was in the theatre, and yet he was never replaced. Quite the contrary, he was made Field Marshall. He also never got sent to the big league - Russia - which was probably good for his career.

 

[Spr.Earl]

My post was just a spur of the moment from my recall of reading Rommel‘s Bio.
Rommel got away with what he did was because he won!
The only reason for the Loyalty was the TOTAL NAZIFICATION of sociaty at that time.
Read
Hitler‘s Army: Soldiers, Nazis, and War in the Third Reich.

By Omer Bartov


OH I also hate the acronym NCM!!!!!

 

[Infanteer]

Yeah, I hate it too Earl, I always refer to my self as a "rank" or an "OR"...even "enlisted" sounds better then that bureaucratic term "NCM".

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Spr.Earl:
[qb] My post was just a spur of the moment from my recall of reading Rommel‘s Bio.
Rommel got away with what he did was because he won!
The only reason for the Loyalty was the TOTAL NAZIFICATION of sociaty at that time.
Read
Hitler‘s Army: Soldiers, Nazis, and War in the Third Reich.

By Omer Bartov
[/qb]

Bartov‘s book is horrible, actually. He draws his conclusions from thin air and has terrible methodology. He is also Israeli, so one may forgive him for a bit of bias....I‘ve read his HITLER‘S ARMY which was just - - bad, in my opinion.

The German Army never nazified though. The Navy was largely Christian, the Army largely reactionary, and the Luftwaffe was the only really National Socialist branch of the Wehrmacht.

You may be right in Rommel‘s case, though, if I understand your use of the word "nazified." Rommel was beholden to Hitler personally. Hitler was not one for the chain of command, and to keep his subordinates from amassing too much power, he encouraged his favourites to circumvent the chain of command whenever possible. Rommel should have reported to his Italian superiors in North Africa, as well as Kesslering, the theatre commander. When it suited Rommel personally, he did, when it suited him better to report to Hitler, he did that, and when it suited him to report to no one, well, he did that too!

Quite a way to run a railroad...

Are we off topic enough, yet?

I dislike NCM also, and usually use the term OR even though that phrase was SUPPOSED to have gone out of style before I ever joined. Most people still know what it means. I guess in a politically correct world (which I agree with, to a point), calling people "Other" just isn‘t on.

You old guys can probably remember when 60 Minutes introduced all the stories and ended with "those stories and more tonight on 60 Minutes". Many years ago, they finally changed it to "those stories, and Andy Rooney, tonight...."

I actually picture Spr Earl as looking just like Andy Rooney, too for some reason.

And Infanteer....

 

[winchable]

Right Gents, so I know you must have some more thoughts on the officer/ncm relationship, the need for officers, and the class structure in the army hierarchy.

Maybe save Rommel for another day/thread?
Or Guide Rommel back to the current situation.

 

[Padraig OCinnead]

Thanks Mike D. for that post of yours. I wasn‘t sure exactly how Fritz did the transition from the ranks to officer. I knew that there was some training involved but that was the extent of my knowledge. I‘ve always been curious on this subject WRT Offr/OR relations.

Slainte,

 

[Spr.Earl]

Mike I have more hair than Andy Rooney

Yes Che we have gotten off topic.
Sorry

I have had many a good time with Officer‘s and called them by first name when partying but have never forgotten my place in the Grand scheme of thing‘s.

That is the clue!! Never forget your place in the Grand Scheme!

 

[Pikache]

Originally posted by Spr.Earl:
[qb] Mike I have more hair than Andy Rooney

Yes Che we have gotten off topic.
Sorry

I have had many a good time with Officer‘s and called them by first name when partying but have never forgotten my place in the Grand scheme of thing‘s.

That is the clue!! Never forget your place in the Grand Scheme! [/qb]

Couldn‘t say it better myself.

 

[Michael OLeary]

We must remember that, at the heart of it, the regulations and traditional behaviours exist to protect from themselves those officers and NCM who would forget their official roles the next day. It takes a certain amount of morale courage on the part of soldier and officer who may be friends from the past to both understand that the officer must stand aside when the soldier is getting a deserved reaming from an NCO who may be in the chain of command between them. One cannot compromise his position by intervening, and the other cannot compromise the officer‘s personal trust in him by expecting it. And if the only basis of ‘friendship‘ is that they drink together, could either expect that understanding to hold firm?

Mike

 

[Franko]

Well I have a good friend whom I met while in the reserves, he was a Mcpl I was a Trooper. We both went up for promotions and such...always stayed good buds.

He and I are both in the Regs in the SAME Regiment...he is now a Capt...I am still a NCO. We still go fishing, chat about home and our wives/ families...even have a few together. The next day he is SIR or Capt______. I am Cpl or Franko....the professionalism is still there. He respects me and I return the compliment.

I‘ve even been his driver during courses...as soon as the doors open we revert instantly back to our roles.

Regards

BTW...I can‘t stand being called by my last name only...I have a rank, for Pete‘s sake use it. I have corrected a few officers who have addressed me by my last name...usually they are initially shocked but then they think about it for a second and correct themselves.

Anyone else have that probelm? How do you deal with it?

 

[Mike Bobbitt]

I understood addressing Privates by last name only was acceptable, but any other ranks should be addressed with their rank. Open to correction on that one...

As a side note, I‘ve served near my brother and father both of whom have outranked me. It was never "pass the salt sir," at home but proper respects were always shown when in uniform. Or at least when in anyone else‘s earshot.

 

[muskrat89]

Talk about ranks in family - at one point, I was a Sergeant, my brother was a Bombardier, and my mother was Fin O (Captain) all in the same Regiment. Oh - and dad was the District RSM.

Being called by my last name never bothered me, but I had a Captain (RSS O). Who called me "Sarge" all the time, and that really grated on me. Didn‘t mind ORs calling me that, but from him it was annoying. Seemed to resolve itself, when I started calling him "Cap"

 

[kurokaze]

Originally posted by Mike Bobbitt:
[qb] I understood addressing Privates by last name only was acceptable, but any other ranks should be addressed with their rank. Open to correction on that one...
[/qb]

I was definately taught different on my basic course. My platoon commander told us: "you always have to refer to the other ranks by their rank and last name, they deserve it. Just like you deserve to be called sir"

And the CSM of that course also went on later and talked with us about officer/ncm relationships and basically it was you have to maintain a certain distance from the troops.

At my unit, that policy is practiced when it comes to officer and junior ranks (though myself and one other officer are probably more friendly with them than the rest), but the senior NCO and officer relationship is closer.

 

[Infanteer]

My biggest pet peeve is first names. I see privates calling master corporals by their first name during business hours. To me, that can stay in the airforce.

Any good unit will develop handles (No joke) Handles were completely acceptable and encouraged in our platoon overseas (Of course, some handles happened to be Sergeant, Warrant, and Sir(EllTee))

 

[Yeoman]

I had my platoon commander on my bmq (they called it something stupid, but getting experience with troops and what not basically). we had gotten to be real close, even accidentally slipped out the first name a couple of times in the past 2 years.
over in my company, maybe it‘s because we‘re such a small unit (platoon at most) that we all pratically go by first names, senior nco‘s included. but when we‘re actually doing the training, that‘s when we use the proper ranks, and names. we‘re a very close knit unit over here, and everybody looks out for everbody, wether they‘re an officer, nco, or ncm.
personally I think it‘s good to know everything about each other; because I know when I get over to the other company in the battalion, other then pte‘s and cpl‘s I know jack squat about the rest pretty much. I think you can be buddy buddy with anyone, so long as you know when the apporpriate times are to be serious.
Greg

 

[chrisf]

Originally posted by Mike Bobbitt:
[qb] I understood addressing Privates by last name only was acceptable, but any other ranks should be addressed with their rank. Open to correction on that one...

As a side note, I‘ve served near my brother and father both of whom have outranked me. It was never "pass the salt sir," at home but proper respects were always shown when in uniform. Or at least when in anyone else‘s earshot. [/qb]

It‘s been my experience that the practice of calling privates by their last name sans ranks is more often used with regard to no hook privates, though not exclusively...

On the subject of relations between NCMs and officers, I have a good friend who‘s a CIC officer, I call him sir regularly, along the lines of Marcy and Peppermint Patty.

 

[Slim]

I guess that there is a time and place for everything.

While in recce out in a three man patrol someplace we tended to let the rank thing drop...Having said that we were all experienced soldiers who knew the rules and never forgot who the Boss is! Having never been in the SAS the concept of a Chinese parliment is not one I‘m familier with...

I have gone to the pub more than once with officers and had a great time...Just so long as you remember that the next day the rules apply.

Slim