New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

[Oldgateboatdriver]

That's funny! I thought a self-propelled mine was called a torpedo.

 

[Underway]

That's funny! I thought a self-propelled mine was called a torpedo.

Depends I suppose. There are mines that shoot torpedos sooo... grey area? Lol

 

[Kirkhill]

That's funny! I thought a self-propelled mine was called a torpedo.

I was wondering about that myself. Is a CAPTOR a mine or a torpedo? I assume the mine lies passive and the torpedo swims, but what if the munition is both passive and active?

 

[Furniture]

too true but it doesn't cancel the question: the discussion was about using the vessel in the arctic where ice is a known hazard to navigation. How would the hull stand up to an unexpected impact with ice at speed? Does the shape of the hull tend to deflect fod?

I'm not an expert, but my impression is it would do no better or worse than any other fast moving thin hulled boat. That said, striking a deadhead at 30+Kts off Port Renfrew isn't going to go any better for the boat and crew either...

Like anywhere else in the world, when you're operating in waters with hazards you adjust your speed to suit the conditions. Just because a CB90 (MRB, MRRB, etc.) can go fast, it does not mean it needs to go fast all of the time.

 

[Stoker]

The CB 90's are nice, operated with them some over the years.

 

[KevinB]

Here’s a devilish idea, the GoC builds only the first 3 CSC’s and then builds 10-12 of those ‘Corvettes’ and put us right back to the year 1996 - 3 Tribals, 12 Halifax’s and 2 JSS…..

I’m guessing you will likely get 9 CSC at the min, or else there will be hell to pay from down here.

So then you may get 18-24 of those Corvettes.


To me and my fairly uneducated opinion on Naval matters, I think you’d be better off with 4-6 JSS than trying to maintain a subsurface capability in the RCN outside of joining AUKUS.


Yes I would sacrifice some Army PY for a better equipped Navy, but only if the PRes was made viable like the ARNG down here.

 

[Czech_pivo]

I’m guessing you will likely get 9 CSC at the min, or else there will be hell to pay from down here.

So then you may get 18-24 of those Corvettes.


To me and my fairly uneducated opinion on Naval matters, I think you’d be better off with 4-6 JSS than trying to maintain a subsurface capability in the RCN outside of joining AUKUS.


Yes I would sacrifice some Army PY for a better equipped Navy, but only if the PRes was made viable like the ARNG down here.

To my untrained eye - less than 12 CSC's wouldn't fit the bill as that number would ensure that 2 are available on each coast at any one time due to the 1/1/1 ratio.

There seems to be a lot of hand wringing and gnashing of teeth concerning a current and future shortage of able sailors to crew all these ships. I'd like to think that there resides within the RCN enough intelligent individuals who are able to solve this issue over the next 5-15yrs. I'm confident that if this issue receives the proper attention, resources, planning that it will cease to be an issue in the future. It will only continue to be an issue if it doesn't have the correct resources, attention, planning and buy-in from Sr Command - if that occurs, then the fault lies with the RCN and CAF.

 

[Rainbow1910]

EPC would be a good place to look for a similar capability. MMPC – Modular and Multirole Patrol Corvette is another name for the project. Two or three variants.

I would agree with your concerns on that, however what's a greater concern. Having future CSC cut OR having the frigates retired early becuase they cost $1/2 billion every docking work period (or they break). From a Gov't of Canada security perspective its the latter.

I'd personally be willing to take hits in the short/medium term to availability and the current fleet rather than cutting away our long term, high end warfighting capability that will be entirely irreplaceable on any reasonable timeframe.

 

[Kirkhill]

To my untrained eye - less than 12 CSC's wouldn't fit the bill as that number would ensure that 2 are available on each coast at any one time due to the 1/1/1 ratio.

There seems to be a lot of hand wringing and gnashing of teeth concerning a current and future shortage of able sailors to crew all these ships. I'd like to think that there resides within the RCN enough intelligent individuals who are able to solve this issue over the next 5-15yrs. I'm confident that if this issue receives the proper attention, resources, planning that it will cease to be an issue in the future. It will only continue to be an issue if it doesn't have the correct resources, attention, planning and buy-in from Sr Command - if that occurs, then the fault lies with the RCN and CAF.

And I continue to argue that manpower should not be an issue if higher levels of automation are accepted. And that doesn't demand going all the way to fully autonomous uncrewed vessels.

It does demand a major cultural shift and a willingness to give up the ship.

 

[Furniture]

I'd like to think that there resides within the RCN enough intelligent individuals who are able to solve this issue over the next 5-15yrs. I'm confident that if this issue receives the proper attention, resources, planning that it will cease to be an issue in the future. It will only continue to be an issue if it doesn't have the correct resources, attention, planning and buy-in from Sr Command - if that occurs, then the fault lies with the RCN and CAF.

Many of the issues impacting recruiting and retention are outside of the control of the CAF/RCN. The RCN can't pay their people more, make housing more affordable, or even make the buildings on the bases better.

 

[Good2Golf]

Dief’s out, Arpatuuq’s in.

Working with the North, for the North - Canada.ca

The Canadian Arctic covers 40 per cent of Canada's territory and plays a fundamental role in our national identity. Expansions in commercial shipping, the impacts of climate change, and increased maritime activity in the Arctic have underscored the importance of safe navigation in the region.

www.canada.ca

 

[Czech_pivo]

Many of the issues impacting recruiting and retention are outside of the control of the CAF/RCN. The RCN can't pay their people more, make housing more affordable, or even make the buildings on the bases better.

They control the ability to streamline the entire end to end process to get someone through the doors and signed on the dotted line.
As for entry level salary for some raw recruit coming in a 20yrs old, with maybe 1-3yrs of college under their belt, is it really that far off from the private sector for someone with the same skill set?

 

[Furniture]

They control the ability to streamline the entire end to end process to get someone through the doors and signed on the dotted line.

They do, and they don't. There are definitely things that can/are being fixed, but there are parts outside of the CAF's control.

Security clearances are handled by an outside agency. Security clearances are a hold-up for many. Medical clearances require people to have access to Drs.. The CAF doesn't have enough medical staff to handle the needs of the current members, so diverting them to clearing each potential recruits is a non-starter. There are parts of the medical process that could be sped up, and that is being worked on from what I understand.

Getting a recruit through the door, and sitting for a couple of years waiting for clearances/training is a great way to break recruits. We tried it back in the early 2000s, and it went quite poorly.

As for entry level salary for some raw recruit coming in a 20yrs old, with maybe 1-3yrs of college under their belt, is it really that far off from the private sector for someone with the same skill set?

Not really, but we make them move away from home, so they lose the opportunity to live at home and save money. We move them to cities that are expensive to live in, then don't have enough barracks, or have barracks that nobody wants to live in. Would you want to live in a barracks with 1-3 other guys per room and no privacy, just to make the same as you could living in the home you grew up in in your home town?

Now, you can get people to move to expensive places, living in conditions they don't enjoy, but you need to pay them well for it or provide other quality of life benefits.

 

[quadrapiper]

They do, and they don't. There are definitely things that can/are being fixed, but there are parts outside of the CAF's control.

Security clearances are handled by an outside agency. Security clearances are a hold-up for many. Medical clearances require people to have access to Drs.. The CAF doesn't have enough medical staff to handle the needs of the current members, so diverting them to clearing each potential recruits is a non-starter. There are parts of the medical process that could be sped up, and that is being worked on from what I understand.

Getting a recruit through the door, and sitting for a couple of years waiting for clearances/training is a great way to break recruits. We tried it back in the early 2000s, and it went quite poorly.


Not really, but we make them move away from home, so they lose the opportunity to live at home and save money. We move them to cities that are expensive to live in, then don't have enough barracks, or have barracks that nobody wants to live in. Would you want to live in a barracks with 1-3 other guys per room and no privacy, just to make the same as you could living in the home you grew up in in your home town?

Now, you can get people to move to expensive places, living in conditions they don't enjoy, but you need to pay them well for it or provide other quality of life benefits.

Might be worth TB looking at the "military factor" (IIRC) with all that in mind, especially at the lower end, and especially as the quality of life in all but the very worst spots in the country is likely higher (maybe not by much, but...) than it was whenever the baseline assumptions guiding the pay scheme were made.

Also: fewer appallingly deadly, barely regulated resource jobs, and higher connectivity to the rest of the world. Equally, no equivalent to the old-school posting to Germany.

 

[Furniture]

Might be worth TB looking at the "military factor" (IIRC) with all that in mind, especially at the lower end, and especially as the quality of life in all but the very worst spots in the country is likely higher (maybe not by much, but...) than it was whenever the baseline assumptions guiding the pay scheme were made.

You need to be a bit careful with that. We are already starting to see negative impacts on morale in the critical "middle" because with CFHD the troops are basically making what their bosses do. Nothing kills morale quite like gaining new responsibilities, and not really getting compensated for it.

I don't really want to derail this more with recruiting/retention talk, beyond again highlighting that not all of the big problems are within the RCN's power to fix.

 

[FJAG]

I don't really want to derail this more with recruiting/retention talk, beyond again highlighting that not all of the big problems are within the RCN's power to fix.

Not sure that it is actually derailing.

Surely the efficient crewing of new ships should be, amongst several other things, part of the Canadian shipbuilding strategy.

I've been an opponent of a common recruit course since the 1960s when we started that nonsense. IMHO, its critical to inculcate a young recruit with the ethos of the service which they are about to serve in from Day 1. IMHO, young sailors and navy officers should start their service at a dockyard and have a DP 1 course that mixes common CAF and navy skills immediately.

Same for the army. And don't get me started on purple trades.

 

[Halifax Tar]

You need to be a bit careful with that. We are already starting to see negative impacts on morale in the critical "middle" because with CFHD the troops are basically making what their bosses do. Nothing kills morale quite like gaining new responsibilities, and not really getting compensated for it.

I don't really want to derail this more with recruiting/retention talk, beyond again highlighting that not all of the big problems are within the RCN's power to fix.

That's defiantly a simmering boil right now. We continually do not predict or see the long term affects of our administrative and financial reindeer games. I can only point to incompetence.

Not sure that it is actually derailing.

Surely the efficient crewing of new ships should be, amongst several other things, part of the Canadian shipbuilding strategy.

I've been an opponent of a common recruit course since the 1960s when we started that nonsense. IMHO, its critical to inculcate a young recruit with the ethos of the service which they are about to serve in from Day 1. IMHO, young sailors and navy Naval Officers should start their service at a dockyard and have a DP 1 course that mixes common CAF and navy skills immediately.

Same for the army. (1) And don't get me started on purple trades.

(1) We can fix this by getting rid of purple. I assume we are on the same page.

 

[FJAG]

(1) We can fix this by getting rid of purple. I assume we are on the same page.

Pretty much. I find most things like MPs and logistics could and should be split up.

I look at the legal branch and can't think of a reasonable way to do it. I sometimes think that there should be something like an Adjutant General Branch which has all those specialty components necessary for running a CAF HQ but not to get too deeply into the details of it.

My trouble is always finding the dividing lines - such as personnel policy, pay and finance management should be centralized but all recruiting and individual training should be decentralized. I don't worry about it too much though because no one is about to hire me to fix the system, anyway.

 

[quadrapiper]

You need to be a bit careful with that. We are already starting to see negative impacts on morale in the critical "middle" because with CFHD the troops are basically making what their bosses do. Nothing kills morale quite like gaining new responsibilities, and not really getting compensated for it.

I don't really want to derail this more with recruiting/retention talk, beyond again highlighting that not all of the big problems are within the RCN's power to fix.

Certainly: was thinking "lower end" as in "junior/underpaid enough that CoL is a problem," whether that's MS and SLt and below or CPO1 and LCdr, or wherever else that line might be drawn.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Pretty much. I find most things like MPs and logistics could and should be split up.

I look at the legal branch and can't think of a reasonable way to do it. I sometimes think that there should be something like an Adjutant General Branch which has all those specialty components necessary for running a CAF HQ but not to get too deeply into the details of it.

My trouble is always finding the dividing lines - such as personnel policy, pay and finance management should be centralized but all recruiting and individual training should be decentralized. I don't worry about it too much though because no one is about to hire me to fix the system, anyway.

Speaking Purely Logistics:

Basic - Done by element
Environmental Training - Done by element
Initial Trades Training - Done at a common school
Follow on Trades Training - Done by element
Leadership Training (PLQ, ILP, ALP ect ) - Done by element

Career Management, Promotions, Succession Management - Done by element