Multiculturalism or Melting Pot Discussion- Merged

[vonGarvin]

Well, actually no. Multiculturalism is an offshoot of a philosophy known as "relativism", and specifically removes the ability to make judgments of the values of one thing over another. It is also fatally flawed when not everyone practices it; both nativist and immigrants can be cultural chauvinists. What is dangerous about relativism is followers are effectively disarmed against the arguments and actions of chauvinists.

Relativism cannot stand any serious logical challenge.

 

[Emilio]

What most Canadians dont see is how elementry school look now in cities like Toronto where I live.  In 20-40 years this country will have an ethnic minority majority. Theres nothing Wong with having a foreign resident populous, but when these people start to influence our everday traditions and values such as Christmas, the lines been crossed. A country is a country because of culture. Without culture, it creates division and division creates, problems. In my opinion until we NEED foreigners to fill jobs, close to door.

Can you give an example of this? preferably a link.

For me coming from a mostly immigrant community, I have seen first hand how much the children of immigrants, and immigrants themselves are willing to assimilate. They strongly and proudly represent the things we deem to be  as"Canadian". And though our culture's might sometimes clash, the (majority) of immigrants whole heartily accept Canadian values.

Since in the end it was Canadian values which inspired most immigrants to come to Canada. So today you can call these people including myself as the "foreign resident populous" but we the "foreign resident populous" don't see ourselves as forgeigners, we see ourselves as Canadian before anything else.

 

[GAP]

Can you give an example of this? preferably a link.

For me coming from a mostly immigrant community, I have seen first hand how much the children of immigrants, and immigrants themselves are willing to assimilate. They strongly and proudly represent the things we deem to be  as"Canadian". And though our culture's might sometimes clash, the (majority) of immigrants whole heartily accept Canadian values.

Since in the end it was Canadian values which inspired most immigrants to come to Canada. So today you can call these people including myself as the "foreign resident populous" but we the "foreign resident populous" don't see ourselves as forgeigners, we see ourselves as Canadian before anything else.

And it is those people who make Canada such a wonderful place to live in. That is what built the country, and that is what will sustain it in the future.

The ones who insist on transposing their homeland/biases here with them are a minority, but unfortunately they create the stigma that affects so many others.

 

[pbi]

What most Canadians dont see is how elementry school look now in cities like Toronto where I live.  In 20-40 years this country will have an ethnic minority majority. Theres nothing Wong with having a foreign resident populous, but when these people start to influence our everday traditions and values such as Christmas, the lines been crossed. A country is a country because of culture. Without culture, it creates division and division creates, problems. In my opinion until we NEED foreigners to fill jobs, close to door.

But really, so what if it does look different in 40 years? What did it look like in 1963?

And please, spare me the rhetoric that the immigrant waves of the 1960's were "good immigrants": IMHO the Anglo majority didn't see it that way then. Just remember the attitudes towards Italians, Poles and Portuguese in those days. I married into an immigrant family of Portuguese who came here in the early 1960's. They settled initially in Kingston: the reception was unpleasant, to say the least. But, they lived through it, got on with life, and all became successful, hard working citizens. Most of them live better than I do.

Did they change Canada? Of course, but gradually. Remember that  the next time you relax in a nice sidewalk patio cafe with an alcoholic drink on a sunny Sunday afternoon, and not in some grubby bar room with separate "Ladies and Escorts" and "Beverage Room" entrances.

Did Canada change them? Yes, for sure it did. At least it changed the ones I know, anyway. And, I think, it will change this current crop of immigrants, and the next. Our culture absorbs and changes: its pretty powerful (for better or for worse).

In my opinion until we NEED foreigners to fill jobs, close to door.

IMHO If we do this, we will be at the mercy of  demographics. Without a steady flow of immigrants, we will have a shrinking, aging work force and a declining birth rate. These usually aren't very healthy for any country.

these people start to influence our everday traditions and values such as Christmas,

I think we should be careful here. I doubt very much that most of the politically correct rubbish such as being "ashamed" of Christmas really came from the mass of new Canadians, most of whom understand implicitly that Canada has traditions. If you really asked most of them, it's probably a non-issue. Instead, I would look to the real villains: over-educated, under-employed Lefties who because they themselves don't like something, assume that all immigrants must be threatened and affronted by it, too. And, anyway, when I say "Merry Christmas" to a non-Christian, I don't mean "My God is better than your God so f***ck you and your stupid religion."

I just mean "Merry Christmas".

I don't care if a Jew wishes me a happy Hannukkah, or a Hindu wishes me a nice Diwahli. Actually, I like t. It's all good.

So here's my set of rules for multiculturalism, for citizens new and old:

-Cultures evolve and change. Grow up and roll with it.

-Welcome to Canada: obey the law, work hard, contribute, enjoy life.

-Don't bring your homeland issues here. Yes, I know the Irish, Armenians, Doukhobors, Serbs and Croats did it. Never mind that. Just don't do it, OK?.

-Build whatever mosque, temple, church, etc you want. (Respecting zoning laws, of course...this IS Canada...);

-Enjoy your religion and I'll enjoy mine. Don't force it on anybody: we're not overly fond of God-botherers here, no matter which God they're yelling about;

-Wear whatever you want to. But if somebody in your family chooses not to wear something you want them to, don't break the law; and

-take responsibility. Don't blame "the government" or "racism" or "immigrants" for your own problems.

 

[myself.only]

:goodpost:

But, just for my own clarity, should I be greeting passersby with...

Merry My God is better than your God so f***ck you and your stupid religion!

or

Happy My God is better than your God so f***ck you and your stupid religion!

 

[paffomaybe]

I see what you did there  

So did I.  That comment was absolutely White On.  :facepalm:

Problems arise when artificial divisions develop based on the superficial.  You can grow up speaking the language, work hard, pay your taxes, play hard, shoot straight - hey, even enroll to give back a bit to the country that raised you (and we know how much *that's* worth when the sh** hits the fan throughout history:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_race_riot, among other nefarious examples). 

And yet?  You're still considered Wong.  Simply because you're not White.  These "divisions" you're on about - whose fault is it, really - the perceived or the perceiver?  "Unfortunately they create the stigma that affects so many others."  It's not unfortunate - it's willful and erroneous association based on confirmation bias.  The more we check ourselves, the fewer these divisions.

 

[pbi]

:goodpost:

But, just for my own clarity, should I be greeting passersby with...or

In today's climate one wants to avoid saying anything that might offend anyone's sensibilities.

So just say "f***ck you!"

 

[The Bread Guy]

Can you give an example of this? preferably a link.

- "Winnipeg school drops Christmas concert for African drumming, cancels Halloween celebration"
- "Muslim families in Winnipeg want children excused from certain classes" (music and co-ed phys ed, to be specific)

All this said, others way smarter than me have pointed out these sorts of things are because of culture, not religion - this from the the second story linked above:

.... a local Muslim leader says there is no reason for young kids to be held out of music or phys-ed classes based on religious and cultural grounds.

“Who is advising them? My first concern would be who are these new immigrants talking to?” said Shahina Siddiqui, executive director of the Islamic Social Services. “This is the first time I am hearing this; I’m not very happy about it.”

Siddiqui said there is no problem with elementary-school children taking coed phys-ed, at least “not with little kids under the age of puberty.”

She said when some middle-school and high-school students have asked not to mix genders, they have been accommodated by schools.

Siddiqui acknowledged that music can be an issue — but only for a few people.

“Music is controversial in our community; this is a North American phenomenon,” she said. “There is a minority view that music is forbidden. (That view) is not accepted by the majority.” ....

I'm with those who say ALL societies change over time, in part because of the folks making up the society.  Crazy, wild-eyed optimist that I might be, I think change'll continue to come to Canada without sharia law, widespread ethnic cleansing or blanket, broad-brush exclusion of immigrants.

So just say "f***ck you!"

To everybody we hate equally, regardless of skin colour, creed, etc., right?  ;D

 

[Emilio]

- "Winnipeg school drops Christmas concert for African drumming, cancels Halloween celebration"
- "Muslim families in Winnipeg want children excused from certain classes" (music and co-ed phys ed, to be specific)

All this said, others way smarter than me have pointed out these sorts of things are because of culture, not religion - this from the the second story linked above:
I'm with those who say ALL societies change over time, in part because of the folks making up the society.  Crazy, wild-eyed optimist that I might be, I think change'll continue to come to Canada without sharia law, widespread ethnic cleansing or blanket, broad-brush exclusion of immigrants.
To everybody we hate equally, regardless of skin colour, creed, etc., right?  ;D

Thank you for those links, but the second case you presented is not representative of most Muslims......Just thought I should say that.

"To everybody we hate equally, regardless of skin colour, creed, etc., right?"

Absolutely  ;D

 

[The Bread Guy]

Thank you for those links, but the second case you presented is not representative of most Muslims......Just thought I should say that.

I'd go even further and guess that both cases are probably not representative of Muslims in general.

 

[a_majoor]

People can also join a culture voluntarily: we all did when we joined up.

I recall a very weird night years ago drinking with British squaddies; a gentleman of the black persuasion suddenly announced that the best thing that happened to the UK had been Margaret Thatcher. When asked to elaborate, he explained she had "Cleaned up the spooks and wogs".

In the company he was in, it made perfect sense; everyone present was "green".

 

[Infantryman2b]

I really dont understand how so many Canadians dont care about perserving the original identity and culture of this country. A simple bus ride, walk through of an elementry school in a city like Toronto or Vancouver shows that we didnt open the door to immigrants, we opened the flood gates, Anglo-European Canada is dying. Fast. There must be a line.

 

[The Bread Guy]

I really dont understand how so many Canadians dont care about perserving the original identity and culture of this country ....

Is that why Aboriginal comedians complain about knowing all about illegal immigrants?  ;D

 

[Infantryman2b]

The cold hearted truth is aboriginals never created Canada. They were tribes and a collection of small nations. We conquered them and created this country.

 

[Lightguns]

In some cases it appears we do need foreign workers to work in coffee shops in gold mining towns or pick fruits and vegetables we eat.

Concur, my recent move to the back country of NB was very illuminating.  When going into base, I drive by houses of generational welfare which sit next to field of crops owned by a commercial farm and being picked by Jamaican farm hands living here on work visas.  That does not make sense. 

I grew up before EI was an accepted way of life in Eastern Canada.  Folks planted in the spring, fished or worked tourism in the summer, picked crops in the fall and cut pulp all winter.  There was food on the table and EI was something shameful taken by the lazy.  The big difference back then was a county system of government, so if you took welfare you were taking from your neighbours.  Now it is a faceless provincial government that everyone feels they can rip off. 

We need migrants just to keep what little industry we have left going.  There is even migrants working the NB trucking industry as driver now because local firms cannot get anyone to drive a truck. 

 

[pbi]

I really dont understand how so many Canadians dont care about perserving the original identity and culture of this country. A simple bus ride, walk through of an elementry school in a city like Toronto or Vancouver shows that we didnt open the door to immigrants, we opened the flood gates, Anglo-European Canada is dying. Fast. There must be a line.

So......what exactly was the "original identity and culture of this country?".  Franco-Canadien? Protestant English? 50 years ago? 100 years ago? When?

What groups would we "send home" because they don't "belong?": the Chinese labourers who built half the CPR? The Catholic Irish who dug the Rideau Canal?  Those nasty non-English speaking Orthodox Ukrainians who settled the Prairies?  The Nisei Japanese farmers in BC? The Jews? Where does this imaginary "original identity and culture" line begin? And, who gets to decide that?

Decades ago, there were Canadians who got upset when we gave up using the Union Jack to get our own distinct national flag, the same one that most of us have proudly worn on our shoulders for many years, because it was change to what they saw  as  the "original identity and culture of Canada", which was essentially "little Britain".

The basis of loyalty, IMHO, is a sense of belonging. If you want people to feel like they really belong to something, make them feel welcome, explain the rules, and let them get on with life as long as they're not breaking the law. That's all most immigrants want. A strong, secure culture is not afraid to adapt and adopt. Paranoid, insecure cultures feel threatened by anything different and are constantly trying to turn back the clock.

 

[Emilio]

I really dont understand how so many Canadians dont care about perserving the original identity and culture of this country. A simple bus ride, walk through of an elementry school in a city like Toronto or Vancouver shows that we didnt open the door to immigrants, we opened the flood gates, Anglo-European Canada is dying. Fast. There must be a line.

Maybe you should take your views over to Stormfront?

And please watch your grammar.

 

[Infantryman2b]

:facepalm:

 

[pbi]

But, seriously, emoticons aside, do you really think we can turn back the clock? Isn't it better to figure out how to make people feel like they really have a stake in this country? That way, gradually and in little bits, they will adapt. My ball park guess is that three generations usually does it, if people are given a reasonable chance.

I've spoken about Remembrance Day at one of those public schools you're talking about, where over half the faces weren't white. Those kids were just as attentive and respectful as any kids I have encountered anywhere.

 

[Remius]

The cold hearted truth is aboriginals never created Canada. They were tribes and a collection of small nations. We conquered them and created this country.

Actually that isn't cold hearted truth, it's ignorant uninformed opinion.  read a few history books before spewing crap like that.

I blame bad tv for this....