"MP's or Provost - An Idea on Roles" and "Replace base MP with RCMP"

[QV]

I'm just concerned we're spelling the branch name mP, where we should be spelling it MP.

A lot of people are concerned about that it seems.  Many of the MP functions on deployed ops are investigative functions.  Without doing those things back home we couldn't maintain or develop our expertise in this area in between deployments.  From my perspective MPs are fullfilling functions that MPs need not perform, one example: guarding parked CF-18s in a secure and monitored restricted area in Canada while the crews sit around and watch TV or drink coffee in the next building over.  Because of that task that particular unit is limited to the number of MPs it can deploy.  I have never seen this type of task on an army base or a navy base because they guard their own equipment.

As far as domestic policing goes, personally I could care less if we give it up.  If we did, our job would become far less complicated real fast and we could stack our other obligations.  Unfortunately providing a policing service is a pretty important thing and we will have to make due for the time being.

 

[FastEddy]

Policing the PMQs is not "military policing services".  It's coffee and donuts policing -

I'm not 100% down on MPs -

Your reference to "Coffee and Donuts Policing" and other remarks lead me to believe you have more of a axe to grind than a genuine concern for the disposition of Military Police Deployment and Responsibilities.

After saying that, I can assure you that CF's Personnel and their Dependents would and are better off being dealt with by Members of the Military Police instead of any other Civilian Law Enforcement Agency.

Case in fact, having Policed PMQ's here and abroad, many CF's Personnel and Dependents avoided arrest and confinement simply due to the fact they were dealing with the MILITARY Police (that's with a big M) and not a Civilian Agency.

If confinement and removal or arrest was required we were and are far better equipped to carry out such procedures rather than subject Military Personnel to unnecessary Criminal Arrests and Records.  We are there to Serve and Protect and Police. Who better to Deal with Military Personnel than Military Personnel ?, I know having seen and required to use SOP's as a Civilian LEO.

However, your concern as to the employment of the resources of the Branch, I'm sure are greatly appreciated by its members.

Cheers.

 

[X-mo-1979]

I like the MP's having the distinct uniform.Not only for the public reconition but for children in the military community as well.
Children may not notice the red beret or an arm band,but they would notice the uniform.

I'm glad the MP's are here patroling when I cant be home to look after my family.

Thank you.

 

[Bigrex]

I was a base brat, who then signed up, so I've lived in Q's the majority of my life and MPs have always had a presence in the community. In Halifax, we now only have one PMQ area, Shearwater and I believe it is still patrolled by MPs, and before selling it off completely Wallace Heights was patrolled by both MPs and city police because, as military personnel moved out, they were filling those units with low income families, until it was all civilian occupied and call "Ocean Breeze Estates" with no breeze, and no clear view of Halifax Harbour let alone the ocean.

Basically, any group of houses that are maintained by DND or subcontractor, (such as Self Help housing in Ottawa), and rent is deducted directly from your pay, should have MP presence, regardless of who has jurisdiction in the surrounding areas. I just wish we had more gated military communities to keep out the riffraff and provide better protection for our families while we are deployed.

 

[Disenchantedsailor]

I could be wrong here, and some deeper research is required but when the MP's were recognized as a national police force and as such credentialed were they not also given the same arrest rights as the rcmp i.e. if an offence to public safety were to occur right in front of them they have the obligation/right to take immediate action and turn the situation over to the jurisdictional authorities after the fact.
And for you guys in the black patrol dress out in Esquimalt, keep it up, I like seeing MP's in front of my house every hour or so all night, the odd check stop on fridays wouldn't hurt, haven't seen them in a while, but still, hell of a job.

 

[garb811]

I could be wrong here, and some deeper research is required but when the MP's were recognized as a national police force and as such credentialed were they not also given the same arrest rights as the rcmp i.e. if an offence to public safety were to occur right in front of them they have the obligation/right to take immediate action and turn the situation over to the jurisdictional authorities after the fact.

OK, you even have me confused.  Say what?  ???

 

[missing1]

"We've already got ample domestic police forces, be they national (RCMP), provincial (OPP and SQ) or municipal.  Having a wannabe civvy cop branch in the CF does nothing for military effectiveness.  The MP branch today claims it is stressed to meet the supprot to operations mandate.  Great.  That's the #1 role for the military.  So put the OPD on a hanger, slide back into the CADPAT, and remember what the M in MP stands for."

We could do the same for the Walmart clerk wannabe and save some money on the logistic side also. No??

 

[MP 811]

I could be wrong here, and some deeper research is required but when the MP's were recognized as a national police force and as such credentialed were they not also given the same arrest rights as the rcmp i.e. if an offence to public safety were to occur right in front of them they have the obligation/right to take immediate action and turn the situation over to the jurisdictional authorities after the fact.
And for you guys in the black patrol dress out in Esquimalt, keep it up, I like seeing MP's in front of my house every hour or so all night, the odd check stop on fridays wouldn't hurt, haven't seen them in a while, but still, hell of a job.

MP's were recognized in the criminal code long before we became recognized as a "national police force".  And you hit it on the head about the public safety thing.

 

[MP 811]

"We've already got ample domestic police forces, be they national (RCMP), provincial (OPP and SQ) or municipal.  Having a wannabe civvy cop branch in the CF does nothing for military effectiveness.  The MP branch today claims it is stressed to meet the supprot to operations mandate.  Great.  That's the #1 role for the military.  So put the OPD on a hanger, slide back into the CADPAT, and remember what the M in MP stands for."

We could do the same for the Walmart clerk wannabe and save some money on the logistic side also. No??


+1.  I happen to be know that the trade is not listed as a stressed trade at the moment.  MSE Op's are stressed......Should we source out there job? 







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[c_canuk]

Personally I don't want civy police on base.

I haven't had a problem with RCMP, but I get a little choked up at how the OPP/QPP conducts business. ie tailgating me at 3 am on the nbr 11 hwy after I've passed 5 moose in a couple hours, one was hit by a semi.

I pulled over to let him go around because I thought he wanted to tail the guy ahead of me driving erradically, but no he stayed on my bumper. I continued on and pulled over again 5 minutes later as I was seriously concerned about having an accident with him so close. After I stopped he put on his lights. He then came up and asked if I knew why he me why he pulled me over  :

I bit my tounge and said I don't know, he said I was swerving...

he was probably 19 years old, out alone, in the middle of no where, tailgating a half ton truck in a moose infested area... if I had a moose in front of me he probably would have decapitated himself. Not to mention if I was a criminal he might not have been able to deal with me... he should have had a partner as this is a main conduit for traffic and may see some pretty seedy types.

Then there was the QPP chick who was compensating for her 5' stature... mirrored shades, swagger, hand on gun as she told me I couldn't change my passenger side tire and ordered me back into my truck. 640 dollar tow truck bill didn't make me happy, nor did the 430 dollar fine for my registration running out the day before...

Yes I know my fault for letting it expire, but I was in Manitoba and extended past my original tasking date, because my address had changed I had to go into the office in person to re register my vehicle, they wouldn't do it over the phone or internet. I wasn't paying 1000 dollars to fly home and back just to re register.

I've always found that MPs are a good bunch of guys generally other than sometimes being a little overly zealous in enforcing the speed limit on base. I'll take that anyday over the run ins I've had with Civy police.

 

[X-mo-1979]

I've always found that MPs are a good bunch of guys generally other than sometimes being a little overly zealous in enforcing the speed limit on base. I'll take that anyday over the run ins I've had with Civy police.

Who ever is dumb enough to speed on a base deserves getting a ticket.Why the heck would you be going even 10km over when you KNOW you will see the MP's somewhere?

People who speed on base are idoits.

 

[211RadOp]

Personnaly, on base or the Q's, if the sign says 30, I do 30.

 

[MP 811]

I tend to think im quite liberal with officer descretion.  I dont bother with pulling people over for anything less than 20 k over the limit and believe me, there are plenty of yahoo's going that fast and faster around the bases and Q's.  I can remember doing radar out at Belmont Park at the firehall in Esquimalt  and most the volators were off duty RCMP members!

 

[Disenchantedsailor]

ah the drag strip known as belmont road,  of course Zelous is just as bad, my wife offers to man a spike belt for you guys by the way.  keep it up though, I know its often a thankless job

 

[c_canuk]

I think it's over zealous to get pulled over for doing 40km/h 10 feet before the 50km zone sign as you come into the CFB Gagetown at 1 am, or doing a rolling stop at 3 am in front of the old German Shacks at CFB Shilo.

I have no problem with and applaud any LEO that pulls people over for doing 10 or over in an area there may be pedestrians.

One of my pet peeves where I used to live off base was the sport bikes flying by trying to catch air on the hills by my house where there were a lot of kids. The city police were not interested even after my buddies car was totalled by a hit and run there.

 

[X-mo-1979]

I think it's over zealous to get pulled over for doing 40km/h 10 feet before the 50km zone sign as you come into the CFB Gagetown at 1 am, or doing a rolling stop at 3 am in front of the old German Shacks at CFB Shilo.

I have no problem with and applaud any LEO that pulls people over for doing 10 or over in an area there may be pedestrians.

A bar,the canex,the base theatre,guard shack,pedestrian crossing.These are all along that small peice of road in the Gag.The limit is there for that reason.

Believe me I was pulled over doing 56 in a 50 on base.It's aggrivating however its the law.I spoke to a good friend who was an mp there then and found out the scoop on the MP who pulled me over anyway.Every trade has its share of guys like him.

 

[QV]

So with all this big 'M' little 'p' stuff I keep hearing about that many CF members think the military police should emphasize, what exactly do you mean? 

What does going back to big 'M' mean?

What historically did military police do if it wasn't domestic policing?

The reason I ask is that I cannot think of anytime in recent history (like within last 40 years) did military police focus so much on the field type role that they now play in Afghanistan, so I am trying to understand what all this big 'M' little 'p' means to some of you.  For example you wouldn't send a platoon of postal clerks to A'stan to run convoys, and neither would you send a platoon of airframe techs to do the same.  I think the postal clerks would be doing postal stuff and the airframe techs well you get the picture.  No other trade in the CF is tasked and expected by everyone to do a role that they are not trained in nor is their function...for example you wouldn't take a bunch of combat engineers and task them to police CFB Borden in a domestic policing role for the next nine months... would you?  So why are the military police tasked with so many non-police related duties? 

 

[c_canuk]

well a few things come to mind

1. soldier first, trade second. When they say big M they don't mean light infanty they mean roles that are only done by MILITARY police, not regular police.

2. in WWII MPs did some domestic policing, but from what I understand mainly they were there to deal with PWs this so the guys who were fighting the PWs didn't have to gaurd them. They also handled interogations and red cross issues.

3. They provided security for sensitive areas, escorts for valuable rations, pay & VIPs, staff for charges and gaurds in the stockades.

I don't see those as tasks for the local police detachment, and combat arms don't seem to be well suited to those duties either.

Personally I think the MPs do a bang up job, and tend to remember we're on the same team a lot more than civy police, especially locals and provincial who see the uniform and automatically see a threat. I don't want to see the bases and Qs turned over to civy police because it will cause more friction.

 

[R031button]

Personally, and I'll admit that this is from a limited experience living on base, but I feel that the MPs have developed a degree of resentment among other trades. I say this based on conservations with other CF members, several of them reservists on work up right now. Now you could say that this is just young troops not accustomed to living on base, but I feel the points are valid regardless.

The sight of several MP cars patrolling an area which is essentially free of random crime, such as (to my knowledge) CFB Edmonton, and pulling over troops at  night for driving 5 K over the speed limit is not something that inspires respect. Several of my good friends are, or wish to be, police officers in the future, and understand this as a requirement. However, when it is the sum visible role of the MP domestic role, it seems as though the trade is filled with, and excuse me if this is offensive, the caste offs of more "legitimate" police agencies who have decided to spend their lives enforcing petty restrictions or busting drunk troops in shacks. Now, argue this as you may, I'm open to the opinions of MPs, and I don't doubt the requirements of busting drunks around base. That being said, their are other roles relating to the security of bases, such as CFB Edmonton, that are deplorable.

CFB Edmonton has deployed at minimum one company for every deployment in Kandahar to date. Yet there is no force protection in place for the base itself. The sole defenses the base has is either a) the off chance that an MP picks up a suspicious person, unlikely since their are many civilian employees who work on base; or b) an attacker comes through the front gate during non business hours, unlikely since that's when the most targets will be gathered. Now, the solution to this, in my mind, would be to beef up the domestic force protection role of the MPs, in both manning the gate, ideally in FFO with C7s, and patrolling the base proper to guard against threats to the base. Just think about it, we've had a serious threat of a devastating terrorist attack in Canada, the "Toronto 17," and if a terrorist element truly wanted to hurt the mission in Afghanistan, all that would be required would be a quick internet search, a drive to a mounting base, and a suicide vest. The role of the MPs should be guard against attacks such as this in the domestic theater of operations.

 

[FastEddy]

Personally, and I'll admit that this is from a limited experience living on base, but I feel that the MPs have developed a degree of resentment among other trades. I say this based on conservations with other CF members, several of them reservists on work up right now. Now you could say that this is just young troops not accustomed to living on base, but I feel the points are valid regardless.

The sight of several MP cars patrolling an area which is essentially free of random crime, such as (to my knowledge) CFB Edmonton, and pulling over troops at  night for driving 5 K over the speed limit is not something that inspires respect. Several of my good friends are, or wish to be, police officers in the future, and understand this as a requirement. However, when it is the sum visible role of the MP domestic role, it seems as though the trade is filled with, and excuse me if this is offensive, the caste offs of more "legitimate" police agencies who have decided to spend their lives enforcing petty restrictions or busting drunk troops in shacks. Now, argue this as you may, I'm open to the opinions of MPs, and I don't doubt the requirements of busting drunks around base. That being said, their are other roles relating to the security of bases, such as CFB Edmonton, that are deplorable.

CFB Edmonton has deployed at minimum one company for every deployment in Kandahar to date. Yet there is no force protection in place for the base itself. The sole defenses the base has is either a) the off chance that an MP picks up a suspicious person, unlikely since their are many civilian employees who work on base; or b) an attacker comes through the front gate during non business hours, unlikely since that's when the most targets will be gathered. Now, the solution to this, in my mind, would be to beef up the domestic force protection role of the MPs, in both manning the gate, ideally in FFO with C7s, and patrolling the base proper to guard against threats to the base. Just think about it, we've had a serious threat of a devastating terrorist attack in Canada, the "Toronto 17," and if a terrorist element truly wanted to hurt the mission in Afghanistan, all that would be required would be a quick internet search, a drive to a mounting base, and a suicide vest. The role of the MPs should be guard against attacks such as this in the domestic theater of operations.

I am sure there are many Members of the Branch out there still scratching their heads trying to figure out how to answere your Post. I know I did.

However I will address several comments you have made.

1.  During and since your indoctrination into the Armed Forces and so early in your carears, you and your friends have already developed resentment and if not hostilities towards the Military Police.

2.  That you openly admit, that you have limited or no experience in Camp Life but yet feel qualified to comment and advise on it, let alone the Roll or Duties of the Military Police.

3.  That being aware of the possible and existing Terrorist Threat, you openly suggest and note a soft area for attack (which might not have occurred to those IDIOTS), you might have well told then about the big hole in the Fence in the back quarter, that has no Security or MP Patrols, ahhh!!! now I regress, my apologies. Although that  comment might be trivial, you might be a bit more careful in what you mention on this subject and Military matters.

But on a lighter side, I think you meant "Conversations" not "Conservations", theres a hell of a big difference.

Cheers.