Minister of Defence

[Unknown C/S]

I think you just proved my point. 
You examined their no gas tax statement.

And did you get my point?

This happens all the time. Now you are prepared to crucify the present MND for using this approach. Or is it because of his background? Being ex military he should be helds to a higher standard than say; Art Eggelton who was responsible for military pers shoveling sidewalks (yet no one complained.) Then he was ousted for his mis-placed ethics.

 

[GO!!!]

The new MND has made a number of comments in recent months indicating he is out of touch with military realities;

1) "JTF Killers" should be moved to a military base where they might be better "controlled"

2) "Move JTF to Gander"

3) "Use of 40mm Grenade Launcher constitutes violation of Ottawa accord"

This is not what we need in an MND, someone with a hate on for SF, a hostility for weapons he is unfamiliar with, and a penchant for grabbing the spotlight - at all costs.

Finally, he has made statements to the effect of "what do you need that much ammo for?", as has been alluded to here. Either he is a military expert, well acquainted with these issues, or he is'nt. Comments like the four above tell me that he is not a military expert or a savvy federal politician.

 

[Good2Golf]

And did you get my point?

This happens all the time. Now you are prepared to crucify the present MND for using this approach. Or is it because of his background? Being ex military he should be helds to a higher standard than say; Art Eggelton who was responsible for military pers shoveling sidewalks (yet no one complained.) Then he was ousted for his mis-placed ethics.

Ummmm...are you serious?  ???

 

[Unknown C/S]

Ummmm...are you serious?   ???

Yes.

Did the  issue get raised in the house of commons? Did the military question? Did Mel Lastman re-imburse DND? Have there been any"proceedures" put in place to ensure that type of misuse of military resources does not occur again?

Nope.........it just died a quiet death.

 

[Unknown C/S]

The new MND has made a number of comments in recent months indicating he is out of touch with military realities;

1) "JTF Killers" should be moved to a military base where they might be better "controlled"

2) "Move JTF to Gander"

3) "Use of 40mm Grenade Launcher constitutes violation of Ottawa accord"

This is not what we need in an MND, someone with a hate on for SF, a hostility for weapons he is unfamiliar with, and a penchant for grabbing the spotlight - at all costs.

Finally, he has made statements to the effect of "what do you need that much ammo for?", as has been alluded to here. Either he is a military expert, well acquainted with these issues, or he is'nt. Comments like the four above tell me that he is not a military expert or a savvy federal politician.

Read reply #35............it covers what your still complaining about

What if I just agree with you people? Let's fire him now for having military experience.

Hey, why don't they bring back John MacCallum, (get him to jump parties) he would just parrot the govt policy but was fun to watch as he's thrown off aircraft for being drunk. Besides he instilled a lot of confidence when he opens a statement with "when I was in the cadets...."

 

[GO!!!]

Read reply #35............it covers what your still complaining about

I see.

Only you are permitted to repeat yourself ad nauseum.

I fail to see how soldiers shovelling snow constitutes a "misuse" of military resources. We also fight forest fires, and fill sandbags and clean up after ice storms. It's called "aid to civil power", and it has a long tradition in this country and others.

I don't find O'Connor to be disagreeable because he has prior military experience, I find him to be disagreeable because of his position in areas of importance when he was the PC Defence Critic.

In short, I think that O'Connor will be a flop as MND because he second guesses his soldiers, has a penchant for making wildly irresponsible and untrue  statements, and seems to enjoy micromanaging troops right down to the kit list. e.g. "No one here will buy their own kit"

My 2 cents.

 

[Hunter]

I fail to see how soldiers shovelling snow constitutes a "misuse" of military resources. We also fight forest fires, and fill sandbags and clean up after ice storms. It's called "aid to civil power", and it has a long tradition in this country and others.

I don't find O'Connor to be disagreeable because he has prior military experience, I find him to be disagreeable because of his position in areas of importance when he was the PC Defence Critic.

In short, I think that O'Connor will be a flop as MND because he second guesses his soldiers, has a penchant for making wildly irresponsible and untrue  statements, and seems to enjoy micromanaging troops right down to the kit list. e.g. "No one here will buy their own kit"

My 2 cents.

Well put GO. 

During the election I heard Mike Duffy say on tv that he thought it would be better to appoint someone else as the MND.  It wasn't a comment on Mr. O'Connor, but he was pointing out that generally speaking it's not a good idea to appoint a former portfolio critic to being the cabinet minister for the same portfolio.  The problem being that as a critic he can say whatever he wants and it's his job to be critical of government policy.  Once he's the cabinet minister it makes him a prime target to be attacked for not sticking by what he said in the opposition benches.

Of all the statements Mr. O'Connor has made, the ones about troops using personal kit and carrying 10 magazines were the ones that have troubled me the most.  I intially had the impression that he was in tune with what's going on with the rank & file, but more and more it seems not to be the case.  I live in his riding and I have met him many times, and as an MP representing his riding he does an excellent job.  It's a shame because I like the guy, but I find myself gritting my teeth every time I read something about him in the news.

 

[TCBF]

"I fail to see how soldiers shovelling snow constitutes a "misuse" of military resources. We also fight forest fires, and fill sandbags and clean up after ice storms. It's called "aid to civil power", and it has a long tradition in this country and others."

- An increadible waste of expensively trained skilled soldiers.  Why not use the unemployed to shovel snow, or fight fires?

We drove up into the hills of Kelowna , and the locals waved to us from the friggin'golf course - some emergency.

Tom

 

[Unknown C/S]

I see.

Only you are permitted to repeat yourself ad nauseum.

I fail to see how soldiers shovelling snow constitutes a "misuse" of military resources. We also fight forest fires, and fill sandbags and clean up after ice storms. It's called "aid to civil power", and it has a long tradition in this country and others.

I don't find O'Connor to be disagreeable because he has prior military experience, I find him to be disagreeable because of his position in areas of importance when he was the PC Defence Critic.

In short, I think that O'Connor will be a flop as MND because he second guesses his soldiers, has a penchant for making wildly irresponsible and untrue  statements, and seems to enjoy micromanaging troops right down to the kit list. e.g. "No one here will buy their own kit"

My 2 cents.

1) I am not repeating myself. That's why I referred back to a reply # The exact same point keeps getting brought up. they do not address my response, just restate what they have already said.

ad nauseum:
Def:  Latin term used to describe something that has been continuing "to the point of nausea." For example "This topic has been discussed ad nauseam": it has been discussed extensively and everyone has tired of it.
(I'm wondering just who is guilty here?)

2) I suggest you revisit the snow shovelling facts.

a) it was not an emergency
                                                                   
b) name another city that recieved snow removal assistance from the military

3) again, his job as a defence critic

4) So you think your political master is, a liar, micro manager, and a tyrant.

I guess that is the danger of democracy, isn't it? Know-it-alls that can pick apart a politician without repercussions.

 

[GO!!!]

2) I suggest you revisit the snow shovelling facts. a) it was not an emergency

If I recall correctly, the Mayor of Toronto requested the army come in to provide assistance.  Heaven forbid the CF create some goodwill or positive sentiments. Besides, the Commander on the ground made the call - if you have a problem, take it up with your CoC. Besides, what did you miss out on because of it?

b) name another city that recieved snow removal assistance

Most of western Quebec and Eastern ontario during the ice storms.

3) again, his job as a defence critic

HE IS NO LONGER THE DEFENCE CRITIC, now he is the MND, and his past is coming back to haunt him.

4) So you think your political master is, a liar, micro manager, and a tyrant.

Strange, those seem like your words, I chose mine carefully. I did not call him a liar, but if that is how you feel...

I guess that is the danger of democracy, isn't it?

Danger? Last time I checked, "free speech" was a fundamental right of all Canadians, and was not "dangerous" unless you were a totalitarian despot, terrified of dissent or criticism.

Know-it-alls that can pick apart a politician without repercussions.

Are you advocating "repercussions" for those who dare disagree with you or the MND?

Perhaps a special branch of the NIS who takes you away in the middle of the night for "political re-education".

I am also a voter, as well as a soldier. The soldier puts his crappy TV on, wears green in a desert country, and says "yes sir".

The voter says "Wait a minute, since this guy ran as an MP on his past record, why should it not be held up for scrutiny?, and why should I not question the actions and statements of those who are at the national levers of power?"

Just because he is currently in charge does not make him right, it just makes him in charge. Perhaps you've forgotten that?

 

[Unknown C/S]

If I recall correctly, the Mayor of Toronto requested the army come in to provide assistance.  Heaven forbid the CF create some goodwill or positive sentiments. Besides, the Commander on the ground made the call - if you have a problem, take it up with your CoC. Besides, what did you miss out on because of it? Most of western Quebec and Eastern ontario during the ice storms.
Perhaps a special branch of the NIS who takes you away in the middle of the night for "political re-education".
HE IS NO LONGER THE DEFENCE CRITIC, now he is the MND, and his past is coming back to haunt him.
Strange, those seem like your words, I chose mine carefully. I did not call him a liar, but if that is how you feel...
Danger? Last time I checked, "free speech" was a fundamental right of all Canadians, and was not "dangerous" unless you were a totalitarian despot, terrified of dissent or criticism.
Are you advocating "repercussions" for those who dare disagree with you or the MND?
I am also a voter, as well as a soldier. The soldier puts his crappy TV on, wears green in a desert country, and says "yes sir".

The voter says "Wait a minute, since this guy ran as an MP on his past record, why should it not be held up for scrutiny?, and why should I not question the actions and statements of those who are at the national levers of power?"

Just because he is currently in charge does not make him right, it just makes him in charge. Perhaps you've forgotten that?

The Mayor, (Mel Lastman) called in a favour from the then MND Art Eggelton, a Toronto MP. (by-passing the normal protocols)
The Comd on the ground had nothing to do with it.
The question was, was it an emergency? you failed to answer that (choosing again to go off on a tangent)

The ice storm was not the same as shoveling out bus shelters It WAS an emergency. Please compare apples to apples..........

(My chain of Command consists of me and my golden retriever (2ic) read my profile)

His Def critic days are comming back to haunt him because people like you ensure these issues are perpetuated. Maybe you could leave it to the press?

The only issue I have with free speech is the fact that it should be classified as either ranging burst or killing burst (both must be used as applicable) it conserves ammo, improves accuracy and aids in not making you a target.

Furthermore, the MND being a former soldier, one would think that current soldiers would give him the benifit of the doubt, instead it is open season on him. Leads me to believe either you have an axe to grind against officers or, don't like tankers.

There is nothing wrong with free speech as long as it tempered with respect and fairness. I certainly am not advocating repercussions for those that speak out. I had a lot of CO's that I had an opinion about, but I cetainly did not run them down publicly. It was only my opinion.

Remember there are quite a few soldiers with solutions for which there are no problems.

 

[Good2Golf]

Unknown C/S, you seem to take valid criticisms of a politician's statements and turn it into some spiteful, conspiratorial, seditious activity by serving members...what's your issue?


Here is the issue in a nut shell as I see it, feel free to pick it apart as I am sure you no doubt will.  While you're at it, feel free to tell me I have my head up my arse, that I'm only a 32A PLT and, as such, should keep my mouth shut on the issue or any combination as you know better than the other members who have voiced their displeasure with the Minister.  Do so, however with the knowledge that, having tried to carry 10 full mags for my C8 in my poor excuse of a tactical ballistic carrier (a.k.a. oversized canvas muscleshirt) while I was travelling around the Afghan countryside in a civy-pattern Land Cruiser, that I wished that there was a nice tactical vest that would allow me to carry all my ammo without having to use the FN C1A1 mag pockets on my CADPAT(AR) shirt that are conveniently hidden under my TBC.  Oh, wait a second...there is...but only some guys get it...perhaps I'd best stop talking about those guys with the nice chest rig.... I fully agree with 031'ers comments about the issue.

So...

Previous military experience or not, when the Minister speaks to an issue, it should be in an informed manner.  With me so far?  Good.

The Minister opened himself to critique by commenting on an issue in a manner that showed he was ill-informed.  It's a fact.  C7/C8 mags take 30 rounds as a standard load, not 20.  Did he remember back to days past with the C1A1 and a 20 round load?  Don't know, can't say, but someone could be forgiven for thinking this is the case.  That's just a small point, however, compared to questioning why a rifleman should need so much ammunition (or why I would want to increase my standard 150-round load when travelling say, between Kabul and Baghram by road).  That is what rubs most of the guys raw, especially 031'ers...and understandably so.  The statement was not backed up with any kind of information showing understanding of ammunition loads.  If the Minister had said something like, "We have assessed the ammunition loads of our soldiers in Afghanistan and have found the amount of ammunition that a rifleman is able to carry in his existing webbing or tactical vest to be sufficient for conducting operations in accordance with his tactics, techniques, and procedures" I could live with that..maybe not agree...but live with that.  That would sound as though he was fully informed on the issue.  He sounded like he was shooting from the hip in a manner that questioned why soldiers should be demanding so much ammunition.  How about, "because they are in a combat zone, not sitting in a big comfy chair in 13NT, 101 Colonel By"?

Unknown C/S, it would seem as though the location you have indicated in your profile, may be fairly accurate...

Duey

 

[GO!!!]

The Mayor, (Mel Lastman) called in a favour from the then MND Art Eggelton, a Toronto MP. (by-passing the normal protocols)
The Comd on the ground had nothing to do with it.

A favour? I suppose you hand carried the note?

Hey Art, my lazy, city slicker constituents don't want to shovel, can you get some of those hillbillies in green to do their work? It would really help my re-election chances....Mel  :

Please, let's try to stick to the facts here.

The question was, was it an emergency? you failed to answer that (choosing again to go off on a tangent)

How many people died in their homes due to a lack of medical care? Was the trg sched. in Pet worth their lives? If we can help our citizens during adverse conditions, we do it - they pay our wages!

The ice storm was not the same as shoveling out bus shelters It WAS an emergency. Please compare apples to apples..........

Both are natural disasters affecting the lives and livlihoods of several million people, with adverse effects on infrastructure, provision of services and business. apple = apple.

His Def critic days are comming back to haunt him because people like you ensure these issues are perpetuated. Maybe you could leave it to the press?

I suppose we should just forget about his decade or so as a defence industry lobbyist too, right? After all, it is in the past... :

The only issue I have with free speech is the fact that it should be classified as either ranging burst or killing burst (both must be used as applicable) it conserves ammo, improves accuracy and aids in not making you a target.

Then set a good example and stop posting.  ^-^

Furthermore, the MND being a former soldier, one would think that current soldiers would give him the benifit of the doubt, instead it is open season on him. Leads me to believe either you have an axe to grind against officers or, don't like tankers.

Ohhhh riiight. Since I find him disagreeable, I must hate officers or tankers :. That's pretty weak, even from you. I find him disagreeable as a politician, in both his previous and current incarnations due to his statements and positions on certain issues, nothing more.

There is nothing wrong with free speech as long as it tempered with respect and fairness. I certainly am not advocating repercussions for those that speak out. I had a lot of CO's that I had an opinion about, but I cetainly did not run them down publicly. It was only my opinion.

The main difference being that COs are not elected officials. Members of Parliament are. Everything a politician does is relevant, and open to scrutiny, from Stockwell Day on his Sea Doo to Paul Martin's ships registered in Panama, it all speaks to who I want running the country, and who my vote goes for.

I don't trash my CO publicly either - but soldiers do not vote for their COs - did'nt you say something about apples earlier?

As I stated earlier, I post here as a Canadian citizen, with insight.

 

[Unknown C/S]

Duey,

Feel free to attack me on a personal level. After all if I choose to defend the MND and that goes against the grain of a few, then in your opinion, I deserve it.
From your condesending tone I can well imagine you typed the last message slowly since you probably think I don't read very fast.  

My issue.................

The MND has held the position for what amounts to just weeks. And yet there are those who want him relaced for statements made, that possibly could be due to being poorly briefed or misinformed. Regardless, I've taken the position that I will wait and see. I do not believe the quoted statements are that earth shattering.
As I have expressed in past post, it sounds to me like a unit problem, local purchase is available to make up the required kit.
It has been stated UCR's have gone unheeded. Perhaps they should look at the source. It would not be the first time a rear echelon staff officer "vetted" these to throw a smoke screen up for what he/she considered "whining". Was the MND made aware of all wish list's sent from in theatre pers? who knows.
Perhaps personel do not like the way Mr. O'Connor comes across. Maybe there is a certain perceived arrogance.
In conclusion, Yes I believe that he made an error or could have handled the situation better. I think time will tell if he is up to the job. Until then I will support him.


(And if you read between the lines, check my profile, you can probably figure out that, yes LCol O'Conner was my Commanding Officer. I am biased. I know the man. I won't share my opinions here since it is not the proper forum. I will back a fellow tanker because that is what we do.)

Quote
"Previous military experience or not, when the Minister speaks to an issue, it should be in an informed manner.  With me so far?  Good."

permission to stand at ease sir  (I enjoy that superior tone you used)

A pilot, Grounded through no fault of his own (you're in Kingston so I'll take some liberties here) Finds himself in a combat role, loaded down with 300 rds of ammo, Negotiating the terrain of Afghanistan (hot female assistant?) hunting Taliban..........You're certain you're not with the Judge Advocate Generals office?....................JAG?
Who'd thunk it?  Sometimes fact is stranger than fiction

 

[Unknown C/S]

A favour? I suppose you hand carried the note?

Hey Art, my lazy, city slicker constituents don't want to shovel, can you get some of those hillbillies in green to do their work? It would really help my re-election chances....Mel  :

Please, let's try to stick to the facts here.
How many people died in their homes due to a lack of medical care? Was the trg sched. in Pet worth their lives? If we can help our citizens during adverse conditions, we do it - they pay our wages!

GO!!!

If you stop your tirade for a minute you should check your facts. (you know what they say when you assume) There was an investigation in to the procedure used to call troops out to Toronto because of a heavy snowfall.
How many people died? It turned out to be a non event. that's why they were left shoveling bus shelters out.
But you would have known all that. I guess you were there. (Funny, I'm sure I would have heard you.)

I am somewhat surprised, because I don't agree with you I should stop posting on this site? I guess freedom of speech only applies to you? Can we try to keep this objective?

 

[Zoomie]

[totally off topic]
Only 32 CBG members participated in the snow shovelling.  Apart from the Bison Ambulance, the RegF boys stayed up at CFB Downsview and worked on their snowmobiling skills.  The boys from Pet were positioned in T.O. in case their capabilities as the IRU were needed.
As it worked out that weekend was a 32 CBG exercise - we had the soldiers already and it saved us a trip to Meaford.

 

[TCBF]

"Only 32 CBG members participated in the snow shovelling.  Apart from the Bison Ambulance, the RegF boys stayed up at CFB Downsview and worked on their snowmobiling skills.  The boys from Pet were positioned in T.O. in case their capabilities as the IRU were needed.
As it worked out that weekend was a 32 CBG exercise - we had the soldiers already and it saved us a trip to Meaford"

- I never knew that, though i did think it was a big spit in Toronto's face that an army with 1,200 M113 family APCs would send wheeled vehicles to drive into an alledged "Snowstorm."

Emergency Preparedness Canada's provincial offices should have access to the licencing records and commercial location of all heavy equipment in a given area, for when it is needed for emergency contract after storms, tornado's, quakes, etc.

Did they?

If so, why call the Army?

 

[HDE]

Mayor Mel had quite a flair for the dramatic.  I was a bit surprised the military went along though.  Are they legally required to abide by a request for assistance or is there room for discussion?

 

[Good2Golf]

Unknown C/S, I suppose I can't argue the loyalty developed within the confines of a Centurion hull! 

Cheers,
Duey

 

[TCBF]

Mayor Mel had quite a flair for the dramatic.  I was a bit surprised the military went along though.  Are they legally required to abide by a request for assistance or is there room for discussion?"

- If the province makes a formal request under the Aid To Civil Power (now called something else, I believe) the guvmint cannot say NO.  Now, what form that assistance takes...