Minister of Defence

[Scoobie Newbie]

Um I suppose when the issue of soldiers buying chest rigs to hold more stuff is when I would ask my military people what the soldier is carrying now a days prior to talking to the press.

 

[Unknown C/S]

WRT your examples no I don't think they couldn't be good in minister jobs/judges because they have remaind current.  He has not just left his position in the military to become the MND he has been out of the loop for sometime now. 
I would hope that he would ask the CDS or someone in the military what we currently use so as to not make himself sound foolish when he makes statements about what our current load is.

1) Again He is a civilian and does not try to pretend he is military. He is a politcian. His military background gives him the advantage of being sympathetic to the troops and the soldiers mindset.
Unless you know something the rest of us don't, he has not been attending o'groups after retirement
He certainly would not have access to changes or information that was sensitive nor should anyone think that he he should.
As MND more than likely he has been brought up to speed on relevant issues. For years now military pers complained about the "civvies" holding the MND post. Now you guys get a former soldier and right away the complaints start, generally picking fly s*&% out of pepper. I'm left to wonder what did some of you expect? O'Conner to show up on day one in uniform and take command of overseas ops?

2) Because a Sect Comd or platoon leader complains they don't have the right kit, should the MND correct the situation personally? History will bear witness to the fact that regardless of the conflict troops will always gripe about kit. sometimes it is justified, sometimes not.
(I can just imagine one of Hadrian's soldiers complaining that the elephant poop shovels were a bad design
It would be impossible for DND to have warehouses full of specialized kit for each specific operation. Even if they did have the kit that some are saying is required, If the next mission (for example) found the troops in the jungles of Bornio then the troops would complain about the amount of mags they were forced to carry in a humid, wet overgrown jungle environment and the space would have been better used fo extra water......................
Troops complain that's their right. No need to action everything Nor for the MND to get involved.

Did you stop to think that you might be targeting the wrong person? With money flowing the way it seems, commanders in situ can request a "local purchase" of critical kit.  Or do you Expect Gordon O'Conner to jump in his car and pick those items up? (give me 200 chest rigg'n thingy's uhm...1000 gel insoles and oh yeah 10,000 timmy's travel mugs)
By the way those South African Recce vehicles showed up out of the blue and not a whisper of "good job"

 

[rifleman]

I guess a response like, "why are the troops carrying magazines in combat? I get my playboys delivered at home" would have been a better response

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

No.  I would expect that prior  to opening his mouth on the record he would familarize himself with the basics of what he is talking about.  Christ some people here believe is ammo count was reflected by the FN.

 

[scoutfinch]

1) Again He is a civilian and does not try to pretend he is military. He is a politcian. His military background gives him the advantage of being sympathetic to the troops and the soldiers mindset.
Unless you know something the rest of us don't, he has not been attending o'groups after retirement

In fact, he was a highly paid lobbyist for defence contractors in Ottawa so I expect he has (or should have) a fairly in-depth knowledge of current CF issues. 

 

[Good2Golf]

Just out of curiosity, in order of priority in relation to such things as state of ships, Seakings, aircraft, manning issues, infrastructure, capital equipment programs, etc., etc., etc., (not to mention the day-to-day business that will cross his desk) exactly where would you put the briefing ensuring that he was up to date on small arms basic loads?

Mike, that info (mags and basic wpns load) should have been in his prep BN....although is sounds suspiciously like someone from DLR may have written the BN..."The Tac Vest is absolutely fine and the clothing systems is made for all soldiers, not just infanteers, so the pockets are just fine!"  :

Comparing my AR with a set of combats I got on initial issue at BOTC, the front (C1 mag) pockets are exactly the same size!  Am I surprized?  No.

Cheers,
Duey

 

[rifleman]

I would like to know where the reference is to where the basic load has changed to 300 rounds (in magazines)?

 

[Unknown C/S]

In fact, he was a highly paid lobbyist for defence contractors in Ottawa so I expect he has (or should have) a fairly in-depth knowledge of current CF issues. 

Scout

Scout,
Well since you are in the military you should have a fairly in-depth knowledge of current C.F issues,

Then you should be able to tell us: which wheels are chains fitted on the Coyote for winter ops? Or what are the dimensions of a vehicle Cam net? Maybe, you know how long a Sea king can stay on station with a half load of fuel?

You people expect the MND to be able to pull this info out of thin air. He is the Minister. In case it did not occur to you, this line of thinking means that he should be able to ryhme off the CF 18 wheel supplier, what type of rope is used to tie up Halifax class frigates, how many horse power the CF buses have, and what pressure the steam heating plant in CFB Trenton operates at  :

Yes he was a lobbyist. Because he was working with Airbus Industries and assisting them in the Tender requirements and walking them through the DND procurement proceedure, does not mean he knows about the latest ammo pouches or brand of lypsil some of the troops are carrying in Kandahar.
(given the fact that Inf, Armd, Eng, Arty and various support trades are "in theatre" and none has the identical issue)

His world is a little larger than cbt boots and a rifle or the problems with a canteen drinking tube. (He is also briefed and preped by assistants and aids prior to media interviews)

So I guess according to most of you, If he does not know the lenght of combat boots laces, fire him.

I hope you hold the next person to your self administered high standard.

 

[scoutfinch]

To be fair, I was referring to macro-level issues. 

Your point is well taken on the micro level issues to which I was not referring. 

My apologies for the lack of clarity in my post. 

 

[Unknown C/S]

scout

Understood. thanks for clarifying.

 

[Unknown C/S]

from all indications he is operating on thinking when he was in the military and has not yet realized that the situation as it were in the world and in defence has radically changed from what he knew.

I did not see the press release stating that he was sending troops back to Germany to defend the Fulda gap.............
Or buying CF 104's, developing a nuclear arsenal, re-instating battle dress and allowing smoking in DND offices.
And I think if he was continually ranting about "damn Commies" we would have heard about it.

Please give me an example of an "indication"

And how did you get into his inner circle and made aware of what he knew? (did you work for him and are aware of his methods?)

 

[Good2Golf]

Scout

Scout,
Well since you are in the military you should have a fairly in-depth knowledge of current C.F issues,

Then you should be able to tell us: which wheels are chains fitted on the Coyote for winter ops? Or what are the dimensions of a vehicle Cam net? Maybe, you know how long a Sea king can stay on station with a half load of fuel?

You people expect the MND to be able to pull this info out of thin air. He is the Minister. In case it did not occur to you, this line of thinking means that he should be able to ryhme off the CF 18 wheel supplier, what type of rope is used to tie up Halifax class frigates, how many horse power the CF buses have, and what pressure the steam heating plant in CFB Trenton operates at  :

Yes he was a lobbyist. Because he was working with Airbus Industries and assisting them in the Tender requirements and walking them through the DND procurement proceedure, does not mean he knows about the latest ammo pouches or brand of lypsil some of the troops are carrying in Kandahar.
(given the fact that Inf, Armd, Eng, Arty and various support trades are "in theatre" and none has the identical issue)

His world is a little larger than cbt boots and a rifle or the problems with a canteen drinking tube. (He is also briefed and preped by assistants and aids prior to media interviews)

So I guess according to most of you, If he does not know the lenght of combat boots laces, fire him.

I hope you hold the next person to your self administered high standard.

.....however, when the MND is specifically addressing an issue regarding alleged shortcomings in equipment systems, he should be properly informed about the issue, hence my comment to Michael about the BN. 

If there were a problem with CF188's wheels, then yes, I would assume the minister would be properly informed to make a proper comment to the press if so asked... e.g. "...while contractor XXX has furnished wheels for the Hornet in the past, they were no longer able to do so and thus we have found a new supplier."  Same if there were issues with the hawsers used to tie up CPFs...or if there were issues with the steam plant at 8 Wing, Trenton (not CFB Trenton anymore. )

Furthermore, I do not think that basic weapon loads and current issues associated with ammunition carriage is an austere topic given that we have thousands of soldiers in a theatre and there have been UCRs put in on the TV and its shortcomings have been noted in numerous PORs.

Cheers,
Duey

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

His misinformed comment on ammo loads is an indication he is referring to what he carried when he was in not now.  A civie would have no idea what the ammo load is and I would hope would ask someone in the know what it was PRIOR to making a statement on said issue.
His thinking on the JTF is reminiscent of those in the 70's and 80's that saw the SF community as unnecessary and had a hate on for them because they felt they were using up valuable assets better left to the regular army.
His comments on the use of grenades to be treated as land mines is also ridiculous and seems to come from a politician and not a man with many years in the service.

 

[RangerRay]

Actually the troops choose the green over the tan.

I'm pretty sure that happened when I was in...I don't recall anyone asking my opinion about that at the time.

 

[Unknown C/S]

His misinformed comment on ammo loads is an indication he is referring to what he carried when he was in not now.  A civie would have no idea what the ammo load is and I would hope would ask someone in the know what it was PRIOR to making a statement on said issue.
His thinking on the JTF is reminiscent of those in the 70's and 80's that saw the SF community as unnecessary and had a hate on for them because they felt they were using up valuable assets better left to the regular army.
His comments on the use of grenades to be treated as land mines is also ridiculous and seems to come from a politician and not a man with many years in the service.

Please give me a link to the ammo statement. (any news source) I am willing to concede that he should have bee briefed. (unless it was taken out of context)

As Far as I know his statements on JTF were to have them moved. This was in keeping with his constituants demands. Most military pers are aware of how they train. there were (and are) many complaints from residents around their training area (O'Connors riding) One cannot deny there is a "bit" of a cavalier attitude with the unit and it has caused a lot of friction in the area. DND has actually tried to buy out farmers to settle the ongoing battle. I cannot find a statemnt where he wanted them disbanded.

The grenade issue is a touchy one and could be very complicated. By listing them with landmines is a step towards removing them from the battlefield (handy booby trap tool) Of course there are pro's and con's to the issue. I see it as Mr. O'Connor being a forward thinker, (kind of flies in the face of a cold war mentality, does it not?)
I hate to say it but I'm on the fence with that one. first hand experience tells me that there is no place in the world for land mines (more innocents are killed by them than combatants) I would need to know the mechanics of withdrawing hand grenades.
(of course the hand grenade issue was brought up whene he was the opposition. I don't think we want to drag up all politicians statements while in opposition and later found themselves in power. too many contradictions)

 

[old medic]

(of course the hand grenade issue was brought up whene he was the opposition. I don't think we want to drag up all politicians statements while in opposition and later found themselves in power. too many contradictions)

I disagree.

Politicians must be accountable for their words. Being in opposition does not give the freedom
to make any silly statement, and then not have those statements examined once in power.

 

[Unknown C/S]

I disagree.

Politicians must be accountable for their words. Being in opposition does not give the freedom
to make any silly statement, and then not have those statements examined once in power.

In a perfect world maybe. Welcome to the world of politics. (guess it smarts when reality hits you in the face)

I don't know if you were around at the time................Joe Clark's consertive govt lost power in a non confidence vote over a gas tax,
Liberals came to power and brought in.............you guessed it, a gas tax

 

[old medic]

In a perfect world maybe. Welcome to the world of politics. (guess it smarts when reality hits you in the face)

I don't know if you were around at the time................Joe Clark's consertive govt lost power in a non confidence vote over a gas tax,
Liberals came to power and brought in.............you guessed it, a gas tax

I think you just proved my point. 
You examined their no gas tax statement.

 

[SweetNavyJustice]

I think it's good that the new MOD has previous experience in the CF.  

Remember this, as the Minister he's mainly responsible to being government policy to the department, and move our issues to the house of commons.  The Minister is largely a figure head in politics.  It is the deputy ministers who "steer" the operation or in our case the CDS.  

Having a Minister responsible for us who has experience means that he knows some of our background issues, and knows the lingo to communicate effectively both with us, and within government.  Some have said that he will bring old understandings.  I don't agree with this.  As I mentioned previously.  The Minister doesn't "work" in DND or the CF, he (or she) is simply our face in parliament.  

 

[Hunter]

Please give me a link to the ammo statement. (any news source) I am willing to concede that he should have bee briefed. (unless it was taken out of context)

I heard him on CFRA Monday morning and posted a question about it here:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/41208/post-354037.html

I don't remember his exact words, that each magazine holds 20 rounds, and 10 magazines means the soldier is carrying 200 rounds.  He also said that he couldn't imagine a situation where they would need to carry that much ammunition.  I thought it was a major gaffe, and I think he's lucky the media hasn't focused on it.  It reminds me of Chretien's backwards helmet incident.

Besides the incorrect statements about ammo loads, I thought his comment that the troops shouldn't need to carry that much ammunition were disturbing.  Imagine if that Shura where Capt. Greene got attacked had been a full-on ambush, and they had to fight their way out.  

A couple of questions for the guys who are over/have been in Afghanistan:

My understanding of the policy in Afghanistan is that if kit looks Canadian or reasonably Canadian then it's ok, is that correct? I sure hope this doesn't result in an 'issued kit only' ministerial directive or something like that.  

I heard Minister O'Connor in a follow-up interview say that nobody had mentioned problems with the kit to him when he was on the ground there.  Did he hold any meetings with troops when he was there, like a CO's hour or anything like that?   What kind of contact did the troops have with the Prime Minister or Defence Minister?  

Did he really expect anyone to speak frankly about kit deficiencies with the Minister of Defence in front of the national media?  Every year at Stalwart Guardian we get the pep talk about what to say and how to say it if the media is around, and I imagine you guys probably get a lot more media relations training.  And I imagine that in his career he must have given a few talks on what to say when the media is around.  I'm sure he knows the drill, so I can't imagine why he was surprised.