Medium/Heavy Lift Helos

[404SqnAVSTeach]

THe only real heavy lift is the CH-47 Chinook.  The question is??? Is it still being built.  If not we will have to find some old airframes and refit them. 

Medium lift, I would pick the EH101 Merlin.  hand down.  :warstory:

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

It's still being built.  See the link:

http://www.boeing.com/rotorcraft/military/ch47sd/flash.html

 

[Zoomie]

Medium lift, I would pick the EH101 Merlin.   hand down.   :warstory:

A.K.A. CH-149 Cormorant - comes complete with poorly designed tail rotor half-hubs and two hour maximum flight time.  We would be making a serious mistake if we were to venture down that route again - stick with the "Hook", proven design with 100% of engine power being applied to lift.

 

[Inch]

A.K.A. CH-149 Cormorant - comes complete with poorly designed tail rotor half-hubs and two hour maximum flight time.   We would be making a serious mistake if we were to venture down that route again - stick with the "Hook", proven design with 100% of engine power being applied to lift.

What are you talking about amigo? You mean to say that making a pit stop to check out your tail rotor while enroute to the LZ to drop the crunchies off isn't acceptable? 

While I have yet to fly an EH101, I was thoroughly impressed with the S-92 that I flew back in Sept. One piece titanium rotorhead and composite blades that are capable of taking small arms fire with no ill effects, sounds like something the army may be interested in.

 

[jmacleod]

Our Ottawa based associates and our Atlantic Canada company is working on the Industrial Regional
Benefits associated with e the MHP Contract to UT Sikorsky for the SH-92. We have been in business for about thirty years, have worked on the MHP and it's previous designated Project, which selected
the EH-101 Merlin, (you all know what transpired on that "committment"). We worked on the NFAP
(New Fighter Aircraft Program) and the LLADS, plus the ILTIS replacement etc.etc. The problem which
is slowly becoming evident on the MHP MCP (Major Crown Purchase) is that it is so complex, thanks
to bureaucrats and "policies" that the SH-92 is not in production for the DND contract - and no metal
for the aircraft will be cut until September 2006. The international helicopter industry will think twice
before entertaining a bid from Canada, for the simple reason that major airframe manufacturers are
profit driven companies, and dealing in Ottawa eats up a lot of unexpected costs  - sad, but true.
Macleod

 

[Sam69]

A.K.A. CH-149 Cormorant - comes complete with poorly designed tail rotor half-hubs and two hour maximum flight time.   We would be making a serious mistake if we were to venture down that route again - stick with the "Hook", proven design with 100% of engine power being applied to lift.

The half-hub issue has not kept POTUS from selecting it as a replacement for his VH-3Ds. I suspect that we will see the t/r issue solved long before POTUS first sets foot in his in 2008.

There is no doubt the the 47 is the gold standard in lift but our Canadian requirements to support the SCTF likely implies the need for a marinized aircraft. As well, we need to think carefully about the costs of introducing another small fleet of complex aircraft when we have two possible substitutes on the books already (148 and 149).

Sam

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

Our Ottawa based associates and our Atlantic Canada company is working on the Industrial Regional
Benefits associated with e the MHP Contract to UT Sikorsky for the SH-92. We have been in business for about thirty years, have worked on the MHP and it's previous designated Project, which selected
the EH-101 Merlin, (you all know what transpired on that "committment"). We worked on the NFAP
(New Fighter Aircraft Program) and the LLADS, plus the ILTIS replacement etc.etc. The problem which
is slowly becoming evident on the MHP MCP (Major Crown Purchase) is that it is so complex, thanks
to bureaucrats and "policies" that the SH-92 is not in production for the DND contract - and no metal
for the aircraft will be cut until September 2006. The international helicopter industry will think twice
before entertaining a bid from Canada, for the simple reason that major airframe manufacturers are
profit driven companies, and dealing in Ottawa eats up a lot of unexpected costs   - sad, but true.
Macleod

If you had a Hillier's ear for 10 minutes, and he asked you your candid opinion on what needs to be done, what would you tell him?

Thanks in advance,


Matthew.   

 

[jmacleod]

We would advise him to approve the purchase of about 20 EH101 Merlin helicopters in the latest
Mark/Model, which would fit neatly into the EH101 Cormorant operational and maintenance sector,provide some commonality of parts, commonality for training (aircrews and groundcrews)
all based on common sense and logic. Purchase should be off the shelf, if the Project goes into
the bureaucratic maze it will take years - the BC built "truck" that the Canadian Army uses took
20 years (I kid you not) to acquire - we worked on the Iltis replacement, until common sense
prevailed due to pressure focus on operations in Afghanistan, and the current operational vehicles
were ultimately purchased. MacLeod

 

[Inch]

Commonality in training for ground crews wouldn't work with the Cormorants, they're maintained by a civilian contractor. Anything that deploys, ie medium lift for the army, would need military techs. Thus, it'd be cheaper to get H-92s than Cormorants.

 

[Mortar guy]

Here are my choices/opinions re. the "Big Honking Helicopter". (Disclaimer: opinions are those of an infanteer):

1. CH-53X - Great payload and range. Also, it is already marinized and is equipped with a folding rotor and tail which means it will likely fit nicely on our new "Big Honking Ship" and may also fit on the JSS. Finally, the USMC is only re-manufacturing 111 of their 160-odd CH-53Es to the X model which means there are a few left over for us.

2. S-92 - OK payload but will soon be in service in the CF which means parts/training commonality. Also, this helicopter is marinized meaning it is designed to operate easily from a ship.

3. EH-101 - Good payload, marinized, commonality with CH-149 but more expensive.

I would not include the CH-47F in my list as it is a bitch to operate off a ship (you have to take the friggin rotor blades off if you want to stow the thing). Opinions? Cruel slander?

MG

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

We would advise him to approve the purchase of about 20 EH101 Merlin helicopters in the latest
Mark/Model, which would fit neatly into the EH101 Cormorant operational and maintenance sector,provide some commonality of parts, commonality for training (aircrews and groundcrews)
all based on common sense and logic. Purchase should be off the shelf, if the Project goes into
the bureaucratic maze it will take years - the BC built "truck" that the Canadian Army uses took
20 years (I kid you not) to acquire - we worked on the Iltis replacement, until common sense
prevailed due to pressure focus on operations in Afghanistan, and the current operational vehicles
were ultimately purchased. MacLeod

Poor wording on my part....

"How would you recommend fixing the bureaucratic maze so that IF procurement decisions do get dropped into their lap, they address those purchases in a timely, efficient and cost-effective manner?"

Thanks,



Matthew.  ;D

 

[jmacleod]

The "maze" is very complex - we have been working, off and on for the MHP and NSAP etc. for
about 18 years. The bureaucrats awarded a contract to UT Sikorsky, but the EH 101 people
got permission to sue the Canadian government over the award process. In fact, the SH-92
"Cyclone" which Canada purchased does not exist - negotiations are still ongoing by the Contract
Administrator General Dynamics Canada (GDC) - UT Sikorsky CT, USA does not always agree with
their own CA GDC decisions. It goes on and on. Meanwhile, what happens if EH101 win their
lawsuit? Northrop Corporation LA California sued the Canadian government over sales of the
Montreal Canadair built F-5 - Northrop won. Could the UT SH-92 contract be cancelled? Finding a
procurement method is going to be very difficult, and fraught with problems, but there has to be
better way - of course as the "Wheeled Vehicle Project" proved, the bureaucrats can move when
they are compelled to, and make the right decision. MacLeod

 

[Good2Golf]

Gents, don't forget the SCTF is not the only task the TALC (Tactical Aviation Lift Capability) will have.  

Concurrently, it must optimally meet the SCTF, MSTF and SOG requirements in a single type...see Defence Policy Statement here for more info (page 30 in particular).  

The Air Forces will be able to:

provide assured airlift to support international operations;

provide a globally deployable special operations aviation capability to the Special Operations Group (SOG);

sustain indefinitely the deployment overseas of two embarked maritime patrol helicopters (one on each coast) and one Aurora maritime patrol aircraft as the forward element of the Standing Contingency Task Force anywhere in the world;

provide for up to six months an Air Expeditionary Unit as an integral element of the Standing Contingency Task Force (SCTF). This unit would be comprised of:

• up to two Aurora maritime patrol aircraft to support land- and sea-based elements,
• up to six maritime helicopters for deployment with the naval task group, and
• up to six medium-to heavy-lift helicopters to support land operations;

sustain indefinitely overseas an Air Expeditionary Unit as an integral element of a deployed Mission-Specific Task Force (MSTF). This would consist of:

• up to six medium-to heavy-lift helicopters to support land operations;

...the SCTF will drive some element of marinization, as will SOG requirements.   SOG and MSTF will also drive hot/high requirements.   Only one lift type helo will be procured to address all these requirements.   That aircraft will have to span all three demands as best as possible.   Standby to see how this one develops... Anyone taking bets on what beast is procured... ???

p.s.   Does anybody have any feedback on how the RAF likes the HC.3 Mk1 Merlins in Iraq (or how the SAS does or does not like it in the SOF support role)?

Cheers,
Duey

 

[devil39]

Duey,

I was going to ask you for input on the Merlins. 

Having flown in Merlins in Bosnia, and having a fair bit of Chinook Air Assault experience, I was extremely impressed with the Merlin.  I don't know what the performance in heat or at altitude would be like, but I would imagine you should be able to extrapolate if you had some decent specs.

I found the Merlin to have awesome lift, and I figured I could get 30-ish troops in there, with rucks, seats out.  With the ramp and the large side door I figured I could empty the aircraft much faster than we were able to exit a Chinook.

 

[jmacleod]

EH101 Merlin is reviewed in some detail on the CASR DND 101 site (Stephen Priestly). The Merlin
is in our opinion the best choice - it is in fact an operational aircraft, currently in front line service
with the RAF and RN. The Sikorsky SH-92 "Cyclone" (Sikorsky wanted to call it the Hawk II) does
not in fact exist - production on this aircraft will not commence until September 2006 - the people
in DND who opted for this non-existant aircraft over a proven, in production operational aircraft
should have their asses kicked in both official languages - plus the fact that they precipitated a
law suit, which in our opinion, EH will win. Once the Canadian media get focused on the MHP,
the shit will hit the well known fan - and the good old Sea Kings will be on the front line until
about 2010-2012, at enormous cost of course, making the contractors who have been rebuilding
them richer. I am old enough to remember when the first Sea Kings arrived in HMCS Shearwater
in April 1963 - in April 1963, President Kennedy was still alive, and the Canada was a much different country, and the Sea King was the best on the block -still is. MacLeod

 

[Cloud Cover]

The Sikorsky SH-92 "Cyclone" (Sikorsky wanted to call it the Hawk II) does
not in fact exist - production on this aircraft will not commence until September 2006 - the people
in DND who opted for this non-existant aircraft over a proven, in production operational aircraft
should have their asses kicked in both official languages - plus the fact that they precipitated a
law suit, which in our opinion, EH will win. Once the Canadian media get focused on the MHP,
the shit will hit the well known fan - and the good old Sea Kings will be on the front line until
about 2010-2012, at enormous cost of course, making the contractors who have been rebuilding
them richer.

The most Agusta Westland can sue for is their profit expectation [if any] from the loss of economic opportunity. They cannot sue to get the contract to build the machine. They lost their attempt to have an injunction against the contract being awarded to Sikorsky. The Cyclone is a done deal, it will go into production whether the machine was the right selection or not.

The Brits are already in the process of upgrading the EH 101, which in a few respects is already out of date:  http://navy-matters.beedall.com/merlin.htm

"In June 2003 Lockheed Martin UK Ltd, teamed with Westland Helicopters Ltd (now AgustaWestland), was awarded by the MOD a 18-month Assessment Phase study worth approximately £18 million to evaluate obsolescence issues with the Merlin HM1, and assess possible upgrades."

The feds have really painted themselves into tight corner with all of these helicopters and years of delay, and no one is going to throw them off track with the Cyclone, because if a Sea King goes down with loss of life and a replacement program is still mired in the court system, there will be lawsuits, injunctions and defence policy decisions of a wholly different and much more ominous variety. Nobody who gives a shit about defence will permit that to hapen at this stage of the game.

 

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Funny how the Sea King types seem to be more looking forward to the Cyclone vice the Merlin......but then again when does the opinion of those using or needing the tools count?

As been said on this board numerous times Sikorsky is not a newbie when it comes to helo manufacture. Afterall as Inch as pointed out several times they made the Sea King and that is still flying after 40 plus years.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Funny how the Sea King types seem to be more looking forward to the Cyclone vice the Merlin......but then again when does the opinion of those using or needing the tools count?

As been said on this board numerous times Sikorsky is not a newbie when it comes to helo manufacture. Afterall as Inch as pointed out several times they made the Sea King and that is still flying after 40 plus years.

I am in total agreement with every point made with that statement. The machine "is what it is, and will be what it will be." Time to move on, there is the whole issue of mission suites to be explored yet.  

 

[devil39]

I am in total agreement with every point made with that statement. The machine "is what it is, and will be what it will be." Time to move on, there is the whole issue of mission suites to be explored yet.  

Sure enough... but the title of this thread is Medium/Heavy Lift Helos, not Maritime Helicopter.  I would suggest that leaves discussion of EH 101 (Merlin) wide open.

 

[Sam69]

Funny how the Sea King types seem to be more looking forward to the Cyclone vice the Merlin......but then again when does the opinion of those using or needing the tools count?

That probably has more to do with what they (we) are getting vice what was implied by the SOR. The community preference was clearly slanted towards the EH-101 in the period before the selection. However, now that a decision has been made I think people are just happy to be moving to a new and modern machine and will be happy to finally give the Sea King the respectful send-off into retirement that it has earned.

As to the medium helicopter question, I remain of the firm opinion that it would be lunacy, from an affordability and sustainability viewpoint, to introduce a completely new helicopter type into the CF when we will be operating two completely viable medium helicopter types in the CF by 2010 anyway. Either the 92 or the 101 will most likely be fully capable of meeting the operational requirements in 95% of the environmental conditions extant in the areas we expect to be operating.

The SCTF and the BHS are cornerstones of the new defence policy to support operations in the littorals and backwaters of the world where the vast majority of people live and where we expect to be operating for the foreseeable future. The ability to rapidly and and effectively project force ashore from a sea base will be critical to our ability to mount operations in many of these areas.

Sam