Leave Policy – Weekends (time off) Merged]

[Awesomedude]

they usally get everyone to drive to work and then take vans from there so they don't have to pay everyone for the kilometers.

Im only bitching because they would never make a day shift worker come in on a saturday or sunday to do extra training but when its a shift worker its like suck it up your comming in on your days off.

 

[George Wallace]

this year, my sgt/WO has made it so I do first aid, dental, c7, 9mm(even though its not needed), PFET all on my days off and told everyone they will not be given leave to make up for the lost weekend time. (5 days so far)

Please tell me that you don't expect the world to revolve around you.  Booking of ranges, First Aid Crses, Dental Appts, and other classes are not made easily.  If they are booked on a day that you may have "off" then don't be surprised that you may be "recalled" to come in and attend them.  You are getting paid very well to serve your country 24 and 7, and this is one of the facts of life you will have to face in this job.  Even Occam can agree that having a Lve Pass in your hand, does not guarantee that you can not have it cancelled.

I am sure that many here would also appreciate you using some of those writing skills you should have learned in school, to make your post a little easier to read.  (You may read our views on this in the Army.ca Conduct Guidelines.

 

[Klinkaroo]

Also if you look it, you work 7 days on 4 days off... That is double the weekend time that day workers get for 2 extra days of work. If they take a few days out of it for some training, you are still getting your equivalent of 5 days work for 2 days off.

 

[Greymatters]

Some of you seem pretty quick to tell this shift worker to suck it up.  Having done 6on/4off shift work for a year at a time, I can tell you its not as simple as it sounds.  You usually cant get any military admin done while you're on shift, you cant get any personal shopping or admin done, and you're on call at a moments notice so you cant really plan any activities that might get in teh way.  By the end of 6 days you are usually bagged and spending your first day catching up on sleep.  You often spend the other 'off days' coming in to the base and getting medical, dental, pay, clothing and other issues sorted.  plus you may be on backup in case someone else gets sick or deployed, often cutting your four days short.  Four days off is supposed to mean four days off so that your work-related and personal-related admini doesnt stack up and interfere with your duties, and when you do work your shift you can focus on the work and not other things.

Having said that, some things cant be avoided - like group-related training such as firing ranges, first aid, etc, but any time this occurs on a shift workers day off, its not 'a suck it up soldier', its a 'suck it up supervisor'.  If it happens once in a while its no big issue, and your average soldier will overlook it without compensation, but if the supervisor continues this policy they will find their members will turn towards the rulebooks and demand either official compensation or informal days off in compensation. 

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Please tell me that you don't expect the world to revolve around you. 

Was there a need for this?  He asked what I considered a very valid question, one that I would definitely have if I were a shift worker and then the rules changed out of the blue.

 

[Lex Parsimoniae]

    The situation is: Im a shift worker, and I work 7 on 4 off usally.

Effectively you are getting 1 day off for every 1.75 days worked.  The CF Leave Manual mandates that you get 1 day off for every 2.5 days worked.  Having to complete 5 days of refresher training per year during your offtime reduces your days worked to days off ratio very little and you are still doing better than somebody working a regular Mon-Fri shift.

 

[Awesomedude]

Im just going to forget about it because its over and done with for the most part.

and to make things more clear for that gentlemen crusifying me

"Booking of ranges, First Aid Crses, Dental Appts, and other classes are not made easily.  If they are booked on a day that you may have "off" then don't be surprised that you may be "recalled" to come in and attend them"

its not that it so happens to be that its a day off because that is what works best for the range people or what not. Its they will not allow us to use our working days at all. I was booked in for c7 range on a day shift and they made me change it to my day off. Its the same as if you were told no you cant go on a friday your going to do it on saturday

and as far as admin, or going to supply it is frowned upon if I go durring my work hours, im supposed to take my lunch break or go in after/before work if I want to talk to the clerks or what not.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

I would talk to your boss and get them to clarify your working hours that way in the future you may be able to avoid this.

 

[Occam]

If you take a look at my earlier post, in particular the part highlighted in yellow, it's easy to see that it's the CO's responsibility to identify working and non-working days.  Your unit standing orders should probably have a reference to shift workers.  I'd be very surprised if it didn't.

Booking of ranges, First Aid Crses, Dental Appts, and other classes are not made easily. 

I'm not so sure about that.  Here in the NCR (as I'm sure you're aware), all individual training (range, FA, CBRN, PFET, etc.) gets booked by the member themselves.  The member is responsible for making sure they are green for all training, and they're responsible for doing the online booking.  Same at my last posting, as well.

If they are booked on a day that you may have "off" then don't be surprised that you may be "recalled" to come in and attend them.  You are getting paid very well to serve your country 24 and 7, and this is one of the facts of life you will have to face in this job.  Even Occam can agree that having a Lve Pass in your hand, does not guarantee that you can not have it cancelled.

If they're "recalled", then compensatory time off is in order.  If one is recalled from authorized leave, then the days are credited back to the member (and the member is reimbursed for any out-of-pocket expense related to the recall).

Working days are working days, and non-working days are non-working days.  Never the twain shall meet.

 

[George Wallace]

Effectively you are getting 1 day off for every 1.75 days worked.  The CF Leave Manual mandates that you get 1 day off for every 2.5 days worked.  Having to complete 5 days of refresher training per year during your offtime reduces your days worked to days off ratio very little and you are still doing better than somebody working a regular Mon-Fri shift.

Many of us here have been in positions of working the normal work week of Monday through Friday, 0700 hrs to 1700 hrs, and have had times where we reported to work on a Monday, worked through a weekend, to end on the Friday of the week following, only to be given a Monday off for the weekend we lost. 

So ....Yes... You can see that many of us think this is just plain whining on the part of the OP.  If the OP doesn't like this, then perhaps they should try come civvie "shift work" instead of a career that demands dedication and pays one 24 and 7, 365 (366) days a year.  What other job gives you the benefits you already enjoy, including a lot of unrecorded time off to go to Medical, Dental, and misc other appointments? 

And yes Bruce, I felt it may have been warranted.  I have had to deal with too many young soldiers who have to large a sense of entitlement in the recent few weeks. 

 

[George Wallace]

I'm not so sure about that.  Here in the NCR (as I'm sure you're aware), all individual training (range, FA, CBRN, PFET, etc.) gets booked by the member themselves.  The member is responsible for making sure they are green for all training, and they're responsible for doing the online booking.  Same at my last posting, as well.

This is in my opinion a dereliction of duty on the part of officers and Snr NCOs in the NCR.  A Pte should not have to book these things for themselves.

If they're "recalled", then compensatory time off is in order.  If one is recalled from authorized leave, then the days are credited back to the member (and the member is reimbursed for any out-of-pocket expense related to the recall).

Sorry, but I call BS on this.  CTO is NOT an authorized LEAVE. 

I would also like to see some documentation on this "reimbursed for any out-of-pocket expense related to the recall".

 

[Zoomie]

My former SAR job was shift work for 4 years.  As a scheduler it was my job to ensure that our members got 9 days off a month.  Those days were not necessarily Sat/Sun - nor were they in 2 day chunks.  If the schedule dictated that the member was going to receive less than 5 days off that month, the CO needed to be informed.

At my current M-F job - if I fly over the weekend (like I did this weekend and last) I take CTO days during the week.  I try and take them in the weeks following the weekend - but sometimes bank them until a long weekend does not impact the job.

 

[Occam]

This is in my opinion a dereliction of duty on the part of officers and Snr NCOs in the NCR.  A Pte should not have to book these things for themselves.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.  I see it as treating people as big boys and girls who can look at their Outlook calendar to see if there are any scheduling conflicts.  The online scheduling system makes it even easier.  You can see at a glance what days are available, and what days are already booked.

Sorry, but I call BS on this.  CTO is NOT an authorized LEAVE. 

Neither are Friday afternoon "sliders".  I would agree that it's not an official form of leave, but nevertheless, it is an integral part of doing business at every CF site I've had contact with.

I would also like to see some documentation on this "reimbursed for any out-of-pocket expense related to the recall".

CBI 209.54

209.54 - REIMBURSEMENT OF EXPENSES WHEN RECALLED FROM OR ON CANCELLATION OF LEAVE

209.54(1) (Application) Subject to paragraph (2), an officer or non-commissioned member who is recalled to duty from leave in accordance with article 16.01 - Withholding of and Recall From Leave of the QR&O or whose approved leave has been cancelled for service reasons may be reimbursed for:

  1. transportation and travelling expenses in accordance with CBI 209.83 - Transportation and Travelling Expenses – Move of Officers and Non-commissioned Members on Posting or of Dependants for the member and, where applicable, their dependants to the place of duty from the place from which the member was recalled and for the return journey if the member resumes leave immediately after completion of the duty for which the member was recalled; and
  2. additional expenses resulting either from the cost of breaking contractual arrangements or cancellation fees that were made specifically for the purpose of an approved leave period.

209.54(2) (Submission of claims for reimbursement) Claims for reimbursement under paragraph (1) shall be submitted in accordance with orders and instructions issued by the Chief of the Defence Staff.

 

[captloadie]

I think some of us who sit in an office all day long, or who are employed in positions that allow a little more freedom to get away from the desk have forgotten there are alot of jobs out there, especially those revolving around shiftwork, that don't allow for members to just pop out to do admin, or extra training.  They are needed to get the job done, so unfortunately, the training sometimes needs to be on done on days off. Should the OP have been given some CTO, probably, but once again, you only have X number of guys for a shift, and they are all needed, when do you give them CTO.

 

[George Wallace]

Occam

I knew you would find something like CBI 209.54.  Now what does it have to do with a person who has not been Posted or left the immediate area of his/her employment/place of duty on Leave?

 

[CountDC]

Something like this:

If the member has approved leave and has booked a flight based on that approved leave and that booking includes a cancellation fee then the member can claim that cancellation fee when the leave is cancelled on them.

What some here seem to miss is that often shift workers do a 4 day week because instead of the 8 hour day they are on for 12 hours. If that is the case here then when doing all your calculations of time worked and time off compared to your normal mon-fri worker take into account that the OP working 7 on is working the equivalant of 10.5 days. I used to work a 4 on 3 off shift myself in which my on day started at 0730 and didn't end until 1 or 2 in the morning with the occasional later time.  When I did time keeping at CE we had the 12 hour shift workers that did the 4/3 week too.

So ..... as no one else has asked - how long is your shift?

Almost forgot - time off for doctor and dental appointments is not unearned time off.  In fact it is not even time off - they are mandatory periods that form part of our duty for the day. I am required as part of my duty to see a dentist every year and attend any follow up appointments that he makes.  I am required to report to the hospital every 2 years, have a full medical done and attend any follow up appointments the doctor makes.  If I have any health issues that requires a doctors attention then I am required to go see the doctor and follow his/her directives.  This is all part of my duty as a member of the CF - maintaining my health so that I am fully employable - not time off.

 

[George Wallace]

Just to add a question to that; do you include Bank Appts, appts to buy furniture at the Brick, extended lunches at Kelsey's, buying a car/bike, appts at the garage for auto maint, booking that trip to Cuba, picking up groceries/dry cleaning, picking up the kids at Day Care, taking the kids to hockey/soccer/doctor/dentist, etc. as all part of the time off that one would normally get?  I hope you don't consider these, and many others, as duty related.  They are little perks that many CF organizations allow if permission is granted by a supervisor. 

As for CBI 209.54; it relates to the examples you have given, not to the worker who is called in from his/her residence within the Base/Unit/Formation area. 

 

[CountDC]

no cause they are not part of my duty - dental and medicals for myself are, CF regulations require me to have them done.

The example I have given is the member called in from the base/unit/formation area - the member has not travelled yet - they have merely booked the trip and then been informed their leave is cancelled.  Paid one because the member was suddenly required to attend a conference they previously were not required for.  Have paid several at christmas time when the member was placed on duty after already having their leave approved.

 

[Greymatters]

Almost forgot - time off for doctor and dental appointments is not unearned time off.  In fact it is not even time off - they are mandatory periods that form part of our duty for the day. I am required as part of my duty to see a dentist every year and attend any follow up appointments that he makes.  I am required to report to the hospital every 2 years, have a full medical done and attend any follow up appointments the doctor makes.  If I have any health issues that requires a doctors attention then I am required to go see the doctor and follow his/her directives.  This is all part of my duty as a member of the CF - maintaining my health so that I am fully employable - not time off.

Too true - if the only available time slot happens to be when you are on or coming on night shift, well, it sucks to be you kind of thing...

 

[Occam]

Occam

I knew you would find something like CBI 209.54.  Now what does it have to do with a person who has not been Posted or left the immediate area of his/her employment/place of duty on Leave?

If you knew I was going to quote it, why'd you ask? 

I think you misread it, though - "a person who has not been posted" has nothing to do with it.  A person who is recalled to duty from leave is entitled to reimbursement for transportation and travelling expenses in accordance with CBI 209.83 -  "Transportation and Travelling Expenses – Move of Officers and Non-commissioned Members on Posting or of Dependants"  (I added the quotes for clarity - the text between the quotes is the title of CBI 209.83).

CountDC gave a pretty good example of that particular CBI in common usage.

There is other policy dealing with the issue.  For example, I'm a day worker, Mon-Fri.  If I get called in to work during silent hours, or on weekends, that's outside my normal working routine.  As a matter of policy, our unit pays transportation expenses (taxi, PMV or otherwise) for someone recalled in that situation.  They also pay for a meal if the period recalled crosses over a meal hour.  My previous unit did the same. 

If I'm scheduled for range training, I claim (on an MTEC) kilometres to and from Connaught (less the distance to and from my regular place of work, since it's along the way) because there's no transportation to the ranges and I have to use my PMV.

All this to say that yes, I do understand when there are occasions when scheduling training during a non-working day (which incidentally makes it a working day) is unavoidable.  Those occasions should be the exception rather than the rule.