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Leave Policy – Annual (time off, after hours, ect...) [Merged]

recceguy said:
When your handed your leave pass, you should be required to hand over your office keys and blackberry. You can have them back from the Orderly Sgt when you return to work.

E-mail and Blackberries are the worst enemy of successfully enjoying leave.  Nobody pays attention to your "out of office" messages and far too many people know our BB numbers (they can be found in the GAL anyways).

In the days of communications by memos, letters and face-to-face conversation, we didn't have to worry about coming back to 100-150 unread messages after a few days off during prime time (AKA not block leave).  Another leave killer is that damned "Read Receipt" feature that allows people to instantly know when you are back at your desk (or worse, have your BB in your hand) so they can call you about the e-mail they know you just read seconds ago.
 
Haggis said:
E-mail and Blackberries are the worst enemy of successfully enjoying leave.  Nobody pays attention to your "out of office" messages and far too many people know our BB numbers (they can be found in the GAL anyways).

In the days of communications by memos, letters and face-to-face conversation, we didn't have to worry about coming back to 100-150 unread messages after a few days off during prime time (AKA not block leave).  Another leave killer is that damned "Read Receipt" feature that allows people to instantly know when you are back at your desk (or worse, have your BB in your hand) so they can call you about the e-mail they know you just read seconds ago.

E-mail yourself a large item to fill your inbox.
 
The leave system is fine.  It is us who are broken. 

We try to take weeks at a time when that is not always possible.  There is nothing wrong with long weekends and one of my best years was six 4 day weeks I enjoyed in a row.  We seem to believe that if we cannot get weeks at a time we are being hard done by.  And we suck at planning out our leave.

When I was new to the CF, I found myself assisting a Committee of Adjustment.  A member was on leave and killed on the highway.  He had mountains of accumulated leave.  The old geezer Committee President look at me and said “son, take your leave and enjoy life as you never know how long you have.”

Leave is an entitlement and it is up to leadership at all levels to ensure folks get leave.  You may not always get what you want when you want (the entire unit cannot take March break), but you should be told to take leave.  I have often popped in while on leave for this or that, and I typically do my PERs at home, but I long ago realized that the system does not crash if I am not around.  If the system cannot get by without little ol me, then we have a bigger problem.  The system can get by without me if I had to rush off on compassionate leave.  The system would carry on without any hesitation if I dropped dead or put in a 30 day release.  So why do we believe the system would suffer an epic fail if we did not come in while on leave?  It is us who believe the system cannot get by without us.  I tell folks that your inbox is much like a dog - it will be waiting for you when you get back from leave, it will be happy to see you and wagging its tail, and it will not hold your absence against you.  Just pick up where you left off.  If you have me as your supervisor, you shall be taking your complete leave entitlement and I do not want to see your smiling face during your leave, unless you are bring me a Tim’s.....  I will also not email you on weekends or call you (unless the place is on fire) if you are on leave or not.
 
Shamrock said:
E-mail yourself a large item to fill your inbox.

Others do that for me.  Then, they call my BB and leave a message to tell me my Inbox is full.  D'oh!  (Thank God for "Call Display".)
 
Original deleted not really related to thread, although I have also witnessed and experienced the same, and agree that it is up to the supervisors/leadership to curb this and assist subordinates/co-workers in attempting to have a balanced work/home life.
 
PAdm said:
The leave system is fine.  It is us who are broken. 

We try to take weeks at a time when that is not always possible.  There is nothing wrong with long weekends and one of my best years was six 4 day weeks I enjoyed in a row.  We seem to believe that if we cannot get weeks at a time we are being hard done by.  And we suck at planning out our leave.

When I was new to the CF, I found myself assisting a Committee of Adjustment.  A member was on leave and killed on the highway.  He had mountains of accumulated leave.  The old geezer Committee President look at me and said “son, take your leave and enjoy life as you never know how long you have.”

Leave is an entitlement and it is up to leadership at all levels to ensure folks get leave.  You may not always get what you want when you want (the entire unit cannot take March break), but you should be told to take leave.  I have often popped in while on leave for this or that, and I typically do my PERs at home, but I long ago realized that the system does not crash if I am not around.  If the system cannot get by without little ol me, then we have a bigger problem.  The system can get by without me if I had to rush off on compassionate leave.  The system would carry on without any hesitation if I dropped dead or put in a 30 day release.  So why do we believe the system would suffer an epic fail if we did not come in while on leave?  It is us who believe the system cannot get by without us.  I tell folks that your inbox is much like a dog - it will be waiting for you when you get back from leave, it will be happy to see you and wagging its tail, and it will not hold your absence against you.  Just pick up where you left off.  If you have me as your supervisor, you shall be taking your complete leave entitlement and I do not want to see your smiling face during your leave, unless you are bring me a Tim’s.....  I will also not email you on weekends or call you (unless the place is on fire) if you are on leave or not.


Excellent post.... I always told people they were replaceable and don't expect a phone call once they were out
 
Doesn't sound like our leave system is broken. It sounds like commanders and leaders aren't stepping up and pushing the issue higher when they are genuinely undermanned for necessary, critical work.

 

Reflecting from a civillian perspective. . .

Concerns I would have would be the degree of unaccounted work hours, and especially in situations where that has become the status quo. 

Are these hidden hours of work documented somehow, in lieu of people getting paid for the extra-hours they put in, the extra jobs they absorb, etc.. It doesn't sound like the reality is going to show up on the data from payroll clerks, since no extra costs in pay for the hidden labour.  Would be a problem if decision-makers are relying on that data alone. . .?

Without that data of hidden work hours (and individuals working e.g. 3ranks/jobs at once, probably causing overtime, unaccounted-for hidden work hours), it's going to skew analyses, affect predictions of labour (rank/unit/role) requirements if not holding the reality of what it actually is and lead to undermanned departments.  Leadership would need to make sure stats are kept of unpaid hours, and not look the other way (as that happens in civvy world, detrimentally) and that data also needs to make it up to those presiding over decisions such as cutbacks, 'stream-lining' of departments, etc.

Allowing persistent functioning in "crisis mode" as status quo mode, doesn't leave the extra for when actual crisis situations hit and it burns people out, can lead to losing good quality workers that you need, due to illnesses, burnout.  It can make a leader look good for a while in the short-term-- "look at our productivity, functioning with less", something to boast about (as happens in the civvy world, be 'promoted for'). . . but the reality eventually does catch up (burnout, shortage of workers) and one would hope that wouldn't come at a time of 'high operational tempo' and when not having the time to adequately train, supervise and develop others talents into the operationally needed positions. . .


Case Study on Burnout:

I deal with a "workaholic" loved one.  He takes pride in his work; has a very strong work-ethic; extremely loyal; is a team-player-- will put in the extra hours for the good of the company; puts extra hours in to ease upper-management transitions; works extra-hard during 'increased operational tempo'; will help others out if their load is too much, that day, etc.. . . but then he starts covering for other employees who are not working up to speed (and they take advantage of that); they do like the "MIR-Commando"-- when work demands are high, they skip out, get "sick" and so he also covers for that (and one pers is clearly a multiple-user of that-- it's entirely predicable!). . . and so he does extra work to just to keep his own lane clean (believing that if he doesn't cover that work, the product of the work he is actually responsible for will suffer and he will be held to account for it).  He has personal ego-issues/values/principles which are less adaptive to the good of the whole, e.g. to not rat on "slackers" and to not complain about extra work (with a pride, "I can take it", I'm competent)-- what was thought of as temporary, "I'll help them out because it's needed" to gradually losing his entire life to work.  Not healthy for him, and nor for the 'team'.

Result/Burnout Sickness: This built-up into covering for more positions, jobs on top of what he was responsible for and resulted in him working long, extra hours-- and he lost it so much (not protecting his boundaries); working for free-- when not not even mandated by his profession to do so.

The free-labour, for which the bosses knew, but turned a blind eye to-- and it made them look like masters of productivity, i.e.; less labour, more bang for the buck.  Could sell product competitively, with cheap labour costs.  Short-term benefit for them, until reality hit, because of contracts made with clients which under-estimated real labour hours.  And when that reality caught up, during high operational tempo. . .  The risks are failing to meet terms of contract, to produce what was expected and agreed upon; failure to complete contract on time; boss/owner would have to absorb those costs of failed contract, plus the cost to professional/corporate reputation [which can't be bought back]. . .

To deal with workaholic loved one, who's prided himself on his work ethic, stand behind his work, be accountable for it's quality, etc.; I needed to show him the other side of the equations, reality-check re: the harm to the team, enabling bad work of others, so they escape accountability; potential harm where his hard work is not helping his company and others within the company face reality and the consequences that can have. . .  The big boss was only looking at the payroll-to-labour equations, as they do when brokering contracts with clients on those costs (under-estimating $ value, and time values)-- completely uninformed, not based in reality.  When workaholic left, the co-workers weren't too happy about the long hours for them and there are risks to losing trained workers as a result and that would not be good at high operational tempo times (logistics work situation I'm referring to).

IMO, it's important for any type of leadership (in CF, that is pretty much everyone, isn't it?) to appreciate the fuller picture, and account for hidden labour, so others can be realistic in planning department needs, costs, ranks/roles/positions, etc.  Enabling unnecessary crisis mode functioning through times when that is more easily ameliorated (staff it properly and ready-to-go for higher operational tempos) is not functional and for CF, it's even beyond what's normally predictable tempos (drop-of the hat changes in tempo, requirments) vs. other types of work environments/businesses where there is more control (well, with competent management, analysis, etc.). 

Burnout, contagious effects from the behaviours; over-enabling dysfunctional behaviours and that spreading organizationally can have very high costs, both individually, collectively and organizationally, and also be unaccounted for by just "counting the bean" (the further up, the more detached from the "ground realities" can happen-- communitcation is important). . . some critical components of functioning can be missed. . . 

I think people have identified some important issues, that can have spreading, unwanted systemic effects re: overtime; behaviours incumbent in of IR; multi-roles-- one person doing 3 jobs; overtime as status quo (instead of reserved for when it's absolutely needed). . . hidden labour across the board, and also within some 'departments'/units/HQs (whatever to call it?).  In CF, it seems things are very interdependent across the whole of it all; wouldn't want crumbling in "house of cards", domino effects. . . and in the environment/context of cutbacks and 'streamlining" of sections, etc., I'd be concerned:  You guys protect our Country-- It's important! 
 
I was by no means a workaholic... I would be in shortly after 6 most days... I was up so I went in... good time to have peace and quiet and clear emails.. that being said at 3:45 my computer was turned off and it better be an emergency if you called me at home in the evening... I was Coy OPs WO and had a young LT who wanted to impress everybody and she was put in her place rather quickly... she was single and didn'r have a life and if I was on leave it had better be life and death
 
riggermade said:
I was by no means a workaholic... I would be in shortly after 6 most days... I was up so I went in... good time to have peace and quiet and clear emails.. that being said at 3:45 my computer was turned off and it better be an emergency if you called me at home in the evening... I was Coy OPs WO and had a young LT who wanted to impress everybody and she was put in her place rather quickly... she was single and didn'r have a life and if I was on leave it had better be life and death

Exactly. I want to see folks give an honest day's work but the norm should be 85% or you do not have any surge capability for the true emergencies. The Cf needs to have a surge capability. I dislike calls at home for any issue that can be addressed on Monday and make this point known.
 
kstart said:
Reflecting from a civilian perspective. . .

Great post and most of your comments transfer over the the military easily.
Some food for though. How did the CF grind through the "decade of darkness" without the accounted hours?
We have a mandated job to do and got it done. Burn out is a real issue and has been documented
within various government departments over the years.
 
kratz said:
Great post and most of your comments transfer over the the military easily.
Some food for though. How did the CF grind through the "decade of darkness" without the accounted hours?
We have a mandated job to do and got it done. Burn out is a real issue and has been documented
within various government departments over the years.

We ground through the 'decade of darkness' at the expense of putting morale down to a snake's belly level. Amazing how people, civilian or military, will hang in there to put food on the table.
 
A couple of points:

    1. This is not a "new" leave system - it looks a lot like what was in place in the 1960s: only very limited and strictly controlled opportunities to accumulate leave;

    2. There were decades of darkness, beginning in the mid '60s. We all got used to doing more and more with less and less; and

    3. Leave - real, proper "rest and relaxation/holiday" leave matters, especially to older, more senior people who need to do two things -

        a. Get out of the office (or unit lines or or shop floor) and let (require) subordinates (to) exercise and demonstrate their leadership/supervisory/technical excellence, and

        b. Focus, if only for a week or two, on the other dominant factor in our lives: family, friends, loved ones - to the total exclusion of the ship, unit or HQ.

A final observation: leave should be granted prior to deploying (embarking) on a tour of operational duty and when returning (disembarking) from the same, provided the tour is something like 300 days or less. Mid tour HLTA is rubbish, but part of the disembarkation process should, usually, involve decompressing.
 
We have tracking devices, usually an Excel based product that measures our operational tempo.  Most persons in a leadership role of 30 persons and less probably also keep track with a pen, paper and memory as well.  The ironic thing to keeping stats on tempo is when you are busy you couldn't be bothered to fill the stupid thing out.

For argument's sake, let's say you did fill the spreadsheet out, and now you have a bunch of stats, that are skewed and tell the story that higher ups work more hours.  Don't we already know that?  What do you expect to do with these stats? Not much sense doing a test if you're not going to doing anything about the results.  Further, the results would be very time sensitive that will change with season and operational rotation. Attaching a number that fluctuates so much and likely has a huge deviation makes it pretty much invalid.  Especially if the solution is moving a few persons to cover the work.  We will be chasing the work all over the place, wasting more effort.

Comds know which of their troops/units are overworked, because their sub-comds tell them so.  If they are not, that is a failure of leadership and will likely get noticed.  Bottomline, we are on salary and we will work until the job is done.  Sometimes that is never, and that is when the prioritizing comes into play; troops need to eat and sleep, and take leave.

The place that truly needs hour keeping stats, which is also a place we do it well, is with fixing our equipment.  This is not important because it tells the tale of overworked mechanics.  It is important for statistics of mean time to repairs for planning purposes.

One of the solutions is redundancy and a clear definition of tasks, and when those tasks need to be absorbed by someone else.  If there is no one that can do your job, then someone needs to be taught, and it doesn't have to be a lower rank.  Duties are often paid lip service to, by printing off the PDR page 1 and signing without reading, amending or enforcing what is written.  Once again a failure in leadership.
 
MCG said:
Perhapse, with a view to establishing a culture of not dragging your work on leave with you, the MND could start sending his various holiday salutations on the weekday prior to the stat holiday (or early December to come before block leave in the case of Christmas).  This makes more sense than sending an email when you expect the majority of recipients to be on leave at its moment of relevance.

Ahhh, you must be referring to the MNDs CF-wide Easter message sent out to all yesterday morning.  For everyone without crackberries, don't worry - it'll be in your inboxes Tuesday morning waiting for you.  :)
 
Our COs policy on annual leave is pretty simple:  Thou shalt not have any more than 5 days annual leave remaining post Christmas Block leave.  It works for the vast majority of pers who use those 5 days for March Break with their kids etc.  It's a good policy.  Sometimes though, shit happens.  A Unit gets nailed with tasks not expected etc etc.  One Unit the policy is fine and no one has any issues or is required to work during their leave. Next year shit happens and things don't go as well.  It is the nature of this outfit we work in - when CF tasks and work become 100% predictable and routine - we probably wouldn't need a CF anymore.

This year, it didn't work for us in large part caused by the shit-show of last APS brought about by the assinine door-to-door move policy.  With COS dates of our pers who were posted out being in the early summer combined with the COS dates of those posted in being late-summer, we had pers who were only able to get 5-10 days annual leave taken during the period due to our Units' tempo.  We simply couldn't, despite trying our damnedest, marry up incoming and outgoing report dates to the point where it would not have meant financial implications directly upon the CF member's personal bank account as they would have had to absorb the costs for hotels/meals/storage etc of their DF&E due to being outside of the door-to-door policy. Note that we received confirmation that delaying/moving up COS' still did not qualify them for coverage as being "outside of member's control".

Since 01 October, we have spent:
1 week in another province doing our HRT (we do this twice a year as a HR Unit);
2 weeks on Ex - Oct;
3 weeks on Ex - Nov;
Christmas Block Leave (with pers at work pulling all the duties/snow removal [we clear our own lines/compound due to the equipment we hold])
4 weeks on Ex - 07 Jan to 02 Feb;
4 weeks of DRMIS rollout and trg courses;
1 week of SAV.

I also spent an additional 3 weeks away on a career course during Feb/Mar.  Many of them also spent time away on career courses during the summer/winter and doing Unit operational tasks such as LO escorts, RSATs, TLDs etc.  For everyone else, Feb & Mar saw us tearing down Div HQ, receiving 55 seacans, prepping/packing and loading them for JOINTEX5, doing recces to Wainwright, moving seacans to Wainwright (via road move), PERs and end End-FY finalization (neither of which can be bumped right).

Our leadership saw our troops burn off 5 days in March break so they could be with their kids ... as our kids tend to be older and more understanding of mommies/daddies absence during this period.  We had 7 X Sgts to MWO man the fort during that time period - purchasing, receiving, doing DST, Duty Tfc, Duty Tn shifts, TO&Es, loading seacans, PERs, JOINTEX meetings etc. Each and every one of these 7 had 10+ annual to burn. 

Where the heck does one burn off the leave then!!?? A day here and a day there?  We are doing that now while the troops hold down the fort for the most part, but are answering our crackberries in order to assist them and back them up in their decisions/authorize when required.

Bonus is:  I get to do this from the location where my hubby is thanks to that crackberry.  It's a fair trade off for me.

If I had more people (or less tasks), the situation would be much better - but that is not the way it is these days as you'd be surprised the push-back one might experience when one suggests that something most would consider "tail" ::) needs to increase in this day and age.  You might also be surprised how pissed off those supporters become as they work until well-post-1600hrs as a matter of routine while they watch their non-sp counterparts screw off at 1430-1500hrs daily to "do nothing somewhere else" - the same ones who would bitch about the "tail" needing to be snipped.  How very ironic.

 
Too true AV. Sp jobs suck a lot more during hard financial times and the media limelight is off the CF.
 
kratz said:
Great post and most of your comments transfer over the the military easily.
Some food for though. How did the CF grind through the "decade of darkness" without the accounted hours?
We have a mandated job to do and got it done. Burn out is a real issue and has been documented
within various government departments over the years.

That was beyond my imagination, good point to connect the two re: effects of "decade of darkness".  I've been on the "lefty-learning curve" (I'm less partisan now  ;)), but as I learn more from that time period, I feel some restitution is due and I hope generally, re: scaling back, the right lessons are learned and the way forward is given due considerations.  You guys do have far more public support now from attention from A-stan (while unfortunately we were less aware re: many previous ops).

@ GnyHwy:  Good points re: skewed data, and where stats aren't there.  Reasonable and probable where/why stats were missing.  I was just thinking, there's wind-down time operationally and coming a time when cuts are being felt 
and I imagine there'd be a time for evaluation in light of those.  In that case, it's possible to re-open investigative research, and there are other sources of data, in lieu of stats re: "unaccounted-for hidden labour" and qualitative research methods (interviews; unit history through stable and increased operational tempos, etc.) as needed if it is necessary to demonstrate needs re: request further funding of positions, and articulating realistic job positions and their transfer roles re: operational tempos, etc.  Anyway, it could come into play, evaluation of making do, what could be added, etc.  Studies can occur at unit levels, and various ops and beyond as well-- you guys are better at delineating those contexts re: missing data for informed policy making, guidelines and funding of positions issues.  I guess the resulting studies (if/as initiated) go to the top for final funding rulings (and I suppose that's also about negotiations, compromises with GoC, the funders. . .).  I really hope for the best results and the means for holding things to task as necessary.  I hope for earnest appraisals, for the good of the team and teams.


I'm really impressed to see the mindfulness people have here re: importance of leave, managing/preventing, monitoring burnout issues/risks; and the pragmatic considerations and contexts people express here.    It also sounds like CF has really evolved (on-going productive, positive evolution) and is well ahead of the game.

Likewise, there's no shortage of talent here-- It's Awesome  :)
Carry On. . . :salute:
 
kstart said:
@ GnyHwy:  Good points re: skewed data, and where stats aren't there.  Reasonable and probable where/why stats were missing.  I was just thinking, there's wind-down time operationally and coming a time when cuts are being felt 
and I imagine there'd be a time for evaluation in light of those.  In that case, it's possible to re-open investigative research, and there are other sources of data, in lieu of stats re: "unaccounted-for hidden labour" and qualitative research methods (interviews; unit history through stable and increased operational tempos, etc.) as needed if it is necessary to demonstrate needs re: request further funding of positions, and articulating realistic job positions and their transfer roles re: operational tempos, etc.  Anyway, it could come into play, evaluation of making do, what could be added, etc.  Studies can occur at unit levels, and various ops and beyond as well-- you guys are better at delineating those contexts re: missing data for informed policy making, guidelines and funding of positions issues.  I guess the resulting studies (if/as initiated) go to the top for final funding rulings (and I suppose that's also about negotiations, compromises with GoC, the funders. . .).  I really hope for the best results and the means for holding things to task as necessary.  I hope for earnest appraisals, for the good of the team and teams.

I'm tracking and I do understand the importance and potential value of good stats.  A significant difficulty with keeping stats, particularly when it comes to money is that there is no real way to place a value or number on the work we do.  We do not make profits, therefore you cannot really tell who is getting the most value out of their budget or even how much they improved because of the money.  It is much easier to count the money spent, then it is understand what good the money did. 

And who says that a person working after hours or extra days means they are doing a good job and being productive.  Maybe they suck and need the extra time to get the work done. >:D

Lastly, another problem with the military keeping stats is that persons who are capable are already busy, and we don't have any cash to higher a contractor.  :)
 
PAdm said:
The leave system is fine.  It is us who are broken. 

We try to take weeks at a time when that is not always possible.  There is nothing wrong with long weekends and one of my best years was six 4 day weeks I enjoyed in a row.  We seem to believe that if we cannot get weeks at a time we are being hard done by.  And we suck at planning out our leave.

....

Leave is an entitlement and it is up to leadership at all levels to ensure folks get leave.  You may not always get what you want when you want (the entire unit cannot take March break), but you should be told to take leave.

My feelings as well. No one should complain they "have to" take leave, as it is a benefit with full pay. Other occupations would enjoy such a perk to their employment. As leaders, we need to ensure our subordinates have the time off to relax and recharge. Also, we must ensure our subordinates and supervisors can cover our leave time so we can recharge. Our Op Tempo is imposed from within the organization, and therefore burn-out is an ailment of our own doing.

If our COs and Commanders give direction in the form of a annual leave plan and we, as leaders fail to follow it, where does fault lay?
 
ArmyVern said:
If I had more people (or less tasks), the situation would be much better - but that is not the way it is these days as you'd be surprised the push-back one might experience when one suggests that something most would consider "tail" ::) needs to increase in this day and age.  You might also be surprised how pissed off those supporters become as they work until well-post-1600hrs as a matter of routine while they watch their non-sp counterparts screw off at 1430-1500hrs daily to "do nothing somewhere else" - the same ones who would bitch about the "tail" needing to be snipped.  How very ironic.

Anyone who would consider CSS as tail, especially in a unit like yours, has their head up their ass.  Our trouble is not too much tail (in fact we have way too little) - it is too much head.
 
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