• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

LAV III Mobile Gun System (MGS)

  • Thread starter Thread starter mattoigta
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
As this topic is still active:

New Stryker Faring Poorly in Field

Military.com | By Christian Lowe | January 29, 2008

BAQUBAH, Iraq - The newest version of the Army’s popular Stryker combat vehicle is garnering poor reviews here from Soldiers assigned to man its tank-like hull.

The General Dynamics Corp.-built Mobile Gun System looks like a typical eight-wheeled Stryker, except for a massive 105mm gun mounted on its roof. The gun fires three different types of projectiles, including explosive rounds, tank-busters and a "canister round" that ejects hundreds of steel pellets similar to a shotgun shell. But while the system looks good on paper and the Army’s all for it, Soldiers with the 4th Battalion of the 9th Infantry Regiment -- one of the first units to receive the new vehicle for their deployment to Iraq -- don’t have a lot of good things to say about it.

"I wish [the enemy] would just blow mine up so I could be done with it," said Spec. Kyle Handrahan, 22, of Anaheim, Calif., a tanker assigned to Alpha Company, 4/9’s MGS platoon. "It’s a piece," another MGS platoon member chimed in. "Nothing works on it."

The gripes stem from a litany of problems, including a computer system that constantly locks up, extremely high heat in the crew compartment and a shortage of spare parts. In one case, a key part was held up in customs on its way to Iraq, a problem one Soldier recognizes is a result of a new system being pushed into service before it’s ready.
"The concept is good, but they still have a lot of issues to work out on it," said Sgt. 1st Class Nathan Teimeier, Alpha, 4/9’s MGS platoon sergeant and a tanker by trade.

According to a Jan. 28 report by Bloomberg News, the 2008 Pentagon Authorization bill included language limiting funds for the MGS pending an Army report on fixes to the vehicle’s growing list of problems. The Pentagon’s director of Operational Test and Evaluation said in his annual report the vehicle was "not operationally effective," Bloomberg reported.
Soldiers here say the searing heat in the vehicles -- especially during Iraq’s blazing summer -- forces them to wear a complicated cooling suit that circulates cold water through tubing under their armor. Ironically, Soldiers often complain the suit makes them cold, Teimeier said, adding to their vehicular woes.

Despite the poor review from DoD auditors, the Army is standing by its vehicle, Bloomberg reported.
"The Army has determined that the MGS is suitable and operationally effective," Army spokesman, Lt. Col. Martin Downie, told the financial news service.

Where there is no debate is in the lethality of the vehicle’s firepower. But Soldiers in the middle of a tough counterinsurgency fight here in Diyala province say commanders are reluctant to use the vehicle’s lethal gun on enemy strongholds out of concern of killing or wounding civilians. As a result, many of the dozens of MGS vehicles go unused while precision air strikes have become increasingly prevalent -- along with the usual Soldier-driven raids.

That’s got MGS drivers here frustrated. Not only do they have to deal with a complex system that gives them fits, but when it is working, they’re not allowed to employ the vehicle in combat. "You can kick down doors and risk losing our guys," Handrahan said. "Or I can just knock down the building from a [kilometer] away and call it a day."

SEE LINK;
http://www.military.com/NewsContent/...160981,00.html

Quite a discussion brewing here with some Canadians making assumptions that are not exactly correct, as well, the "Sparky" crowd is involved also.
 
Ha ha ha, Sparky got caught.

Kids....just say no to the Gavin

Regards
 
....Does he have tourettes or something? Reading the convo when asked a question about something all he can reply with was...well... something I wouldnt say in front of my mom...
 
Spencer100 said:
Here is some new infomation about the MGS in iraq.  Sounds not good.
When you go through that discussion, all of the guys that claim to have fought the MGS seem to have high praise for it.

http://forums.military.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/672198221/m/6330088661001?r=5990061761001#5990061761001
i have read all these poorly thought comments about the MGS. I am, in my opinion, the most combat proven mgscommander in theater right now. I have fired 58 maingun rounds and a little over 8,000 7.62 rounds, 4 confirmed kills, 3 unconfirmed (not enough remains left). People get it out of your heads....ITS NOT A TANK!!! i have been a tanker and still a tanker for 19 yrs. I love tanks however in an urban enviroment the MGS IS A BETTER VEHICLE TO HAVE, END OF STORY. This may piss tankers off i got it i understand but facts are facts, I have proven that. The 105 kills but limits collateral damage, the accuracy is..well 58 rounds 58 target hits you do the math. The coax is awsome most kills are within 5 rounds. Yes the vehicle has a few issues, most have been corrected but like all vehicles in the army they break down too. out of the 10 months i have been here mine has been down twice but was up within 24 hours. i can cross baghdad in a matter of minutes. the stryker moves out at 65 mph and is designed the same as a tank, full up fire control system, stabalization, same ammo. as far as armor goes tanks blow up from ied's, mgs's blow up from ied's....fact of life. I will leave the tankers with this thought if the army buys the MGS you will be on it sooner or later so practice ruck marching. a infantry company is no joke.

http://forums.military.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/672198221/m/6330088661001?r=7400030761001#7400030761001
Hello all, my name is Spc. Handrahan, I am the gunner/co-TC of the MGS that was qouted in the article. At the time of my deployment I was, and to the best of my knowledge still am the MGS top gun, between me and my driver/co-TC Spc.Baker I feel we have a fairly solid grasp of most every aspect of the vehicle.

In regards to some questions and points that were brought up:

No the vehicle has no issue firing over the side. There is a very large amount of felt recoil. The vehicle will rock from side to side, or if fired over the front, the two front wheels will come off the ground. Some gunners (mtself included)have come out of a gunnery run with a black eye or a busted nose from the thermal sight bucking back at them. However all issues regarding rollovers during firing have long since been addressed. I would say over 50% of our gunnery was firing over the side on the move, and I never missed a shot thanks to the vehicle. The most obscure shot was a 1700m+ Sabot fired over the back deck while on the move, again, center mass every time.

The vehicle was not intended to combat MBT's. In a recent armor study magazine I read, it was decided that V.S. a T72 the MGS would likley have the first hit advantage, however would ultimatly be destroyed by the enemy. I think that the weapon is (supposed to be) used to uproot entrenched enemies. And by other companies in my battalion has been used with some success in that regard. From my personal experiance I have found that just it's presence a huge deterent to enemy activity; AQI largly chooses to ignore us when the MGS is out on patrol.

Yes, the vehicle is freakishly hot. I captured on my video camera temps of over 135 in the shade. I believe that this is a large part for component failure and is being investigated.

The cooling suit however is fantastic! I was skeptical of how well it would work, but as stated, if cranked to max you can be TOO cold in those extreme conditions. My only complaint is that the suit wasn't installed until the summer was almost over. *EDIT* I forgot to mention that when the cooling suit is installed, they need to remove some parts from your heater. So since they installed the suit (dubbed "air warrior"; as the rumor is that it is installed on helo's) at the end of summer, my crew and I have spent the winter pulling gaurd 6-8 hours at a time with temps. getting close to freezing being rather miserable.

The main gripe with the system is that it is just outright unreliable. It will go from fully functional to 100% turret power failure instantly with no reason. Shutting down the turret and powering back up is the only real solution given to us by GDLS, and much like a computer (the turret is ran by the lunix OS) maybe it will work. Maybe it won't.
More often than not we will leave the vehicle on the FOB being 100% mission capable. But when we return the the FOB 9-14 days later it will somehow have broken itself while just sitting parked in the motor pool.
It is also agrivating that when we bring the vehicle into the maintence bay it will sometimes just "fix" itself. And if there is no problem to be diagnosed it cant be fixed. "Gremlins" of the worst kind, but I hope that this will get better with time.

The stryker vehicle as a whole is a really excellent platform, it is silent, fast, mobile, reliable (besides the obvious exception lol) and far more resiliant that you might think. I have personaly been in 6 IED attacks on my vehicle and there has never been more damage than replacing tires and hubs and other cosmetic damage.

GDLS has taken comment cards, and held censuses with the MGS crew members where we were always told that they were interested in our opinions and feedback. However even when presented with easy and cheap solutions to serious problems MULTIPLE time they were rarley if ever implemented which often causes the crew to creat makeshift modifications (My coax machinegun will not fire without the aid of a cardboard and duct tape contraption one of my NCO's rigged up).

About the closing comment about knocking down houses from 1KM away. Admittedly I signed up in the military to bask in bloodshed and it is how I would like to fight the war but I am aware that it just wont work here. I spend about 90% of my time walking the streets, shaking hands and kissing babies. The whole "winning the hearts and minds" thing. "WHAM Ops" as we have come to call it. The comment was more to be in the context that since my company is over 90% 11B infantrymen, the answer to any problem is always "Battle Drill 6" (room clearing) even when a safer and easier solution such as a 105mm HEP round is readily available.

Anyway, if there are any more questions of comments I will likley check back here a couple time.

Spc. Handrahan, Baqouba Iraqistan
 
those are interesting reports.  Now, before armchair generals come out of the woodwork and claim that the Leo 2A6M CAN was an error, consider the qualified statements, such as "in urban fighting" and the author's consideration for collateral damage. 

As stated before and I'll state again, the MGS is no tank, it has a niche with the U.S., but it's not for us.
 
Mortarman Rockpainter said:
As stated before and I'll state again, the MGS is no tank, it has a niche with the U.S., but it's not for us.
It certainly could be put to good use by us if it is in addition to tanks (and not instead of tanks).
 
The name of the system says it all - Mobile Gun System. Its job is to support the soldiers of the SBCT. I want to point out that Stryker battalion commanders love to have a platoon of Abrams attached to them which has occured a number of times in Iraq.
 
Other types of 'Mobile Gun Systems' have been used in COIN ops for decades by other countries who concurrently maintained large, tracked armour inventories. That doesn't mean that we have to buy into the concept on the 'me too' basis, but it's interesting nonetheless that these armies felt the need to design and field a totally wheeled armoured vehicle, mounting a large gun, in addition to their tracked armour fleets. Maybe we need to accept that acquiring vehicles like this is just part of the evolutionary process towards being a fully COIN capable army?

Some examples (that look amazingly similar to the MGS) below:

Panhard
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panhard_AML

Saladin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvis_Saladin

AMX 10
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMX_10_RC

Centauro
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centauro
 
"Some examples (that look amazingly similar to the MGS) below"

Crikey D&B, is that the product of Para AFV recognition?  Wheels. Check. Gun. Check.  CG. 200m. Big armoured thing crossing your front.  1 round HEAT. In your own time. Fire.   :D
 
Kirkhill said:
"Some examples (that look amazingly similar to the MGS) below"

Crikey D&B, is that the product of Para AFV recognition?  Wheels. Check. Gun. Check.  CG. 200m. 1 round HEAT. In your own time. Fire.   :D

As long as it has a BV and a crew that can use it to produce a nice big steaming mug of Rosey Lee for me & me muckers, what do I care?  ;D
 
D&B... you forgot the ROOIKAT from South Africa

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rooikat_AFV
 
And the Fox... which I worked with in 5AB Bde. Run by the Household Division chaps. Very useful. Deployed from the back of C130Js as part of airlanding operations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_Armoured_Reconnaissance_Vehicle
 
The Fox was a nice piece of kit.  First saw them in Fallingbostel when some were in from Berlin.

I do have problems with many British AFVs, in that they are a "plumber's nightmare" to maintain.

Why was the Fox removed from Service in the 1990's?
 
They did suffer from a high centre of gravity, but I think the real reason was downsizing the army, they tossed all of their wheeled recce, including the Vixen which was just starting to be made. (Vixen was the next generation of Ferret)
 
The Fox was pulled by the Brit Safety Nazis after the Territorials had a series of accidents involving the Fox.Although it was felt by some of the people involved that the problem could have been solved by better driver skills. But it saved dollars or in this case pounds sterling and the reason you have a military after all is so you can cut it budget isn't it?
A further note safety was also the alleged reason for scrapping the Scorpion as well the fumes from the breech were considered toxic and rather then increase the power of the turret ventilation system they elected to scrap the vehicle. Btw  thats why we got all that 76 MM in the early to mid 90's for the cougars
 
Yes, I recall seeing a Fox from the 'XYZ Yeomanry' on it's side on Salisbury Plain one winter. Frozen tank tracks + high camber + high speed = Timber!!!
 
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2008/02/army_new_MGS_080204w/

Mobile Gun System brings the heat in Iraq
Soldiers like Stryker system’s firepower, but hope for cooler crew space
By Matthew Cox - Staff writer
Posted : Monday Feb 4, 2008 13:23:38 EST

CONTINGENCY OPERATING BASE SPEICHER, Iraq — The Stryker Mobile Gun System’s automatic loader clinks and clanks as it feeds a high-explosive shell into the breech.

A few seconds later, the menacing cannon fires with a thunderous crack, sending a 105mm round downrange, where it blows a big hole in a dirt berm.

The new direct-fire weapon arrived in Iraq for the first time when the 4th Stryker Brigade Combat Team, 2nd Infantry Division, deployed 10 months ago. The MGS is one of 10 variants of the Stryker series of wheeled and armored vehicle.

The soldiers who spoke with Army Times generally approved of the new vehicle’s battlefield performance, despite difficulties caused by design flaws. The most immediate shortcoming was the vehicle’s lack of air conditioning, an omission that — until a solution was fielded — had crewmen patrolling while hooked up to intravenous fluids to counter triple-digit temperatures under the summer sun.

Nevertheless, “the MGS is a fine vehicle and has proven itself here multiple times,” said 4th Battalion, 9th Infantry Regiment, Command Sgt. Major Richard Leirdahl.

Bravo Company of 4-9 learned just how effective MGS firepower can be in May, when one part of the unit drove into an ambush near Taji.

Enemy forces detonated a huge bomb beneath one of Bravo Company’s Strykers. The blast destroyed the vehicle, killing two soldiers and blowing the leg off another.

Small groups of enemy fighters began rushing the Bravo Company soldiers as they tried to help the wounded, recalled Capt. Jack Moore, who commands Bravo 4-9.

Bravo Company soldiers fought off their attackers, but could not knock out the intense small-arms fire that was coming from a house about 300 meters away.

One of the company’s MGSs rolled into the fray and blasted the house with three high-explosive rounds.

“It destroyed the house,” said Sgt. Jesse Ryland, a squad leader in 4th Platoon. “They are pretty impressive.”

Each battalion in the brigade has nine MGS Strykers, each of which is armed with a stabilized 105mm cannon that can shoot on the move and destroy hardened targets out to 3,000 meters.

The MGS can carry up to 18 rounds of ammunition and is capable of firing six rounds per minute. It carries anti-tank rounds in its arsenal, but the MGS “isn’t meant to go up against tanks; it’s meant to support the infantry,” said Moore.

The MGS’s turret can rotate 360 degrees, Moore said, making it effective at scanning for enemy threats while on the move.

Its vehicle commander and gunner “can just sit there and spin as the vehicle goes down the road,” Moore said at a Jan. 28 live-fire exercise here at Memorial Range, where MGSs from B and C companies practiced firing at targets out to 1,000 meters. “I love this piece of equipment.”

In addition to anti-tank and high-explosive rounds, MGS can also fire anti-personnel ammunition known as canister rounds. Each canister round fires 3,200 tungsten carbide balls that resemble 00 buck shot.

When fired, these rounds turn the MGS into a giant shotgun, shredding a path 75 meters wide out to 300 meters.

“They are also good for disabling threat vehicles,” said Sgt. 1st Class Benjamin Tucker, 4th Platoon sergeant and MGS vehicle commander. “It peppers the whole thing, obliterates the windows and anybody who is inside.”

Each time the cannon fires, the MGS lurches backward from the force of the recoil.

“We don’t feel that inside,” Tucker said. “The stabilization system is really good.”

Twice during the Jan. 28 live fire, two MGS Strykers experienced misfires. One MGS crew solved the problem by extracting the round and reseating it into the breech. The other MGS had to come off the firing line.
Keeping cool critical

Despite the misfires, Tucker said the vehicle has few maintenance problems.

MGS crewmen here praise the effectiveness of the system but say the design needs improving.

The main concern of the unit before it deployed in April was that the MGS’s cramped crew space leaves no room for air conditioning.

In the summer, three-man MGS crews had to operate in dangerously hot conditions, Moore said.

“In Baqubah this summer, it was literally 147 degrees in there,” Moore said, describing how they had to hang IV bags inside each MGS Stryker. “We forced them to eat and drink, but we still had guys riding down the road with IVs in their arms.”

As a quick fix, Program Executive Office Soldier supplied 4-9 in July with special micro-coolant vests that aircrew members wear to cope with the extreme heat in helicopter cockpits. These specialty garments, worn underneath body armor, feature coiled tubing that runs throughout the interior of each vest. Two small compressors mounted on the outside of each MGS circulate chilled water through the tubes.

“It keeps the core cool … some guys actually have to turn down the dial,” Tucker said.

MGS gunner Cpl. Matthew Andrews agreed the vests made a huge difference.

“They work pretty well,” Andrews said. “It beats pouring water over yourself.”

But that doesn’t solve the problem of computer systems overheating in some of the MGS Strykers, said Leirdahl.

Another challenge with the MGS design is that the huge turret partially overhangs the vehicle commander’s and gunner’s hatches, making quick escape no easy task, Tucker said.

“Everybody has their own technique for getting in and out of the vehicle,” he said.

To compensate, they carry only the essentials on their body armor vests — ammunition and first-aid gear. In addition, crew members regularly practice evacuation drills.

Leirdahl maintains that the hatches on the MGS are noticeably smaller than those on other Stryker variants, creating a safety hazard.

“Reaching down and trying to pull a soldier out is difficult because the hatch circumference is smaller than hatches on other Strykers,” he said.

The gun system has had its problems. In early 2005, before the weapon was fielded, Stryker program officials decided to redesign the sophisticated loader on the MGS to prevent jamming problems. The decision delayed fielding of the system until early 2007. Program officials had hoped to begin fielding MGS in September 2006.

The Army wants 72 MGS Strykers to outfit its seven planned Stryker brigades.

Besides the firepower MGS brings to the battlefield, 4-9 soldiers maintain that the huge cannon on this new Stryker variant also gives them a psychological edge when they roll through populated areas.

“They have seen Strykers, but they hadn’t seen an MGS,” Tucker said. “You just see the heads turn and the mouths hang wide open when we pass.”

 
Well... no air conditioning.  The guys in our Leopards can relate to that.

As everyone has stated, this thig is not a tank and not intended to go up against any.
However, as an infantry support role - fighting in built up areas, it's ability to fire canister rounds & HE make it an important item on the Coy commander's tool belt.
 
I take issue with this head hunting news piece. MGS Poorly in Field? Hardly, aside from the computer problems, the article is nothing but petty complaints from Soldiers. Nothing new there.

Computer system that constantly locks up. I wonder which computer? The Stryker has several. I would contribute this in large part to the high temperatures inside the vehicle. We have not seen this in my battalion, but we have yet to see anything outside of Pennsylvania, but they are going to be rectifying that this year.

Extremely high heat in the crew compartment No AC in an armoured vehicle in the desert equals high heat in the crew compartment, I fail to see how this makes the MGS fair poorly in the field.

Shortage of spare parts This is the fault with General Dynamics Land Systems logistics, not with how the MGS performs.

A key part was held up in customs on its way to Iraq Again, a logistics issue, not a vehicle performance issue.

Searing heat in the vehicles forces them to wear a complicated cooling suit that circulates cold water through tubing under their armor I wish that we would have had these when we were sitting in armored vehicles in 147 heat.

Soldiers often complain the suit makes them cold Waaaaaahhhhhh! Suck it up and be thankful you are cold during the Month of Fire.

Vehicle’s lack of air conditioning This will be rectified with AC retrofit kits. My battalion has already received theirs and our GDLS tech reps are installing them.

Two MGS Strykers experienced misfires. One MGS crew solved the problem by extracting the round and reseating it into the breech Misfires are not necessarily due to the gun system, more than likely ammunition related or operator error as stated above. Everyone trains misfire procedures. You haven’t lived until you have shaken a 120mm round out of a mortar tube and do the long lonely walk to the dud pit.

MGS’s cramped crew space leaves no room for air conditioning Cramped? It’s an armored vehicle, and AC will be added during retrofit.

Computer systems overheating in some of the MGS Strykers Again, which computer?

Turret partially overhangs the vehicle commander’s and gunner’s hatches, making quick escape no easy task The only quick way out of a Stryker is dropping the back hatch.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top