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How is the Canadian Army in terms of Combat operations?

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B.C Dude

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hey everyone, this is my first post as a new member and i was just wondering, I've always been interested in the army since i was a little kid and now im even more determined to join it now that im 17 because for one thing i want to become a stronger person, more brave and more confident and bold in personality, but i've heard from numerious people negative things about the army like that they don't do anything and it's pretty boring because all they do is train and when the time comes to put their training to use (i.e afghanistan) there's nobody to use their training on because they never get a chance to go into combat like marines do,

don't get me wrong i'm not crazy to actually like going out and shooting people i don't know, but i'm just curious since there weren't basically any combat oppurtunities for regiments and batallions in afghanistan to go out and do their thing, i'm thinking is joining the army worthwhile or boring? and do you think in the near future the CF will
will have the opportunity to show their bravery and valour on the battlefield especially to those americans who bash our army all the time?
 
There is an excellent FAQ that might answer a lot of your questions and address your concerns located here:

http://army.ca/forums/threads/17067.0.html

As for your last point about the Americans bashing our military I think its anything but. The US would like us to increase our budget which I and many others agree with but as for the US bashing our military I think you need to research that more carefully.
 
Ill give you the "Coles Notes" version, If you want togo to war and kill people look into getting into the US Army or for that fact the US military, If you want to hang around a platoon room and play cards or go over weapon TOET's for the 100th time join the Canadian Army.
 
thanks ex-dragoon it helped a bit but the question of the CF's role in combat still hangs over my head, I can't understand why is it that the U.S military usually is the one fighting while our army is stuck with peacekeeping, and now with things happening in the world the way it is, we have a chance to show canadians that we're bad asses too and we're more then capable of fighting terrorism alongside the U.S.

anyways Without Warning

i was thinking a while back on trying to get into the US army but you need a U.S citizenship, and since im in Canada it's a bit of a roadblock. The reason i'm  asking this is because i want to do something that might make a difference iin the world against terrorism and if i'm stuck in a platoon room as you put it WW then i'll never be able to see what i'm capable of.
 
to be an american, think like an american...

Bart Simpson to Apu - "why dont you just marry some American broad and divorce her after you get citizenship?"

perhaps that would work. but really, couldnt you get dual citizenship? or is that not enough?

justyn
 
lol Desjardins...

And Without Warning, I don't mean to offend you with this or anything...but your answer to B.C. Dude was the reason he was asking the question in the first place...

As for the Americans bashing our military...you we're probably getting this information from an American or a friend of an American citizen...I don't think any American in the military would belittle our army, no matter how arrogant the American's are portrayed to be or how badly our army is underfunded and undermanned (or so I've read, I also agree as should every other Canadian citizen that the funding for our military improve and actually make it to where it was intended)

I also am looking to enlist even though I have little support from my friends because all they think when they hear the words "Canadian" and "Army" in the same sentence is "Okay, where's the punchline"...but when I hear it I hear opportunity, chance to serve my country and of a lifetime, and do something meaningful with my life...
 
The Canadian Army is fine in terms of "combat", depending on what you interpret that to mean.   It is true that for political and domestic approval reasons, the vast majority of our operational deployments are peace-support related.   However it is also true that the old days of "classic peacekeeping" a-la Cyprus are (for the most part) long gone.   These days, a soldier deployed on peace-support operations is as likely to experience "combat" conditions as a soldier deployed on deliberate combat operations.   This is particularly true of the initial contingent rotations within a peace-support mission, while the situation between the warring factions and the UN or NATO force is still unsettled.   Recent examples would include (but are not limited to) UNPROFOR Croatia in the early to mid-1990s, IFOR and SFOR Bosnia in the mid-1990s, ISAF in Kabul, etc.   Just ask the members of 2 PPCLI Battlegroup if they got "enough" combat action in the Medak Pocket in Croatia.   Or the R22er and RCR contingent that secured the Sarajevo Airport.   Better yet, do a couple of Google searches and read all about those "peace-support" combat actions for yourself....

Notwithstanding the politically-directed Canadian Army focus on peace-support operations, we do still occasionally engage in deliberate combat operations.   3 PPCLI Battlegroup's 2002 deployment to Afghanistan as part of Operation Enduring Freedom/Apollo in the war on terrorism would be the most recent case in point.   Our 850-person infantry battlegroup conducted 6 months of offensive and defensive combat operations as an integral battalion within Task Force Rakassan - 3rd Brigade of the U.S. 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault).   Aside from defending Kandahar Airfield from Al Qaida and Taliban attack, the battlegroup conducted 2 combat air assaults, 1 air-mechanized reconaissance-in-force, and multiple quick-reaction-force tasks to secure downed helicopters in "no man's land", destroy weapon and ammunition caches, etc.   The "gloves were off" so to speak, and 3 PPCLI BG did everything that their U.S. counterparts did in terms of combat operations in Afghanistan.  

Having participated in both combat and peace-support operations, I would humbly suggest that the the latter are even "hairier", due to the "unknown" factor.   During the early days of a peace-support operation the level of uncertainty regarding chance "enemy" contact, the possibility of blundering into an unmarked minefield, etc, is much higher than a declared combat operation where you know up-front that you are going to deliberately seek contact with the enemy.  

Go to the link below and scroll down to the second post by "Bartok5" to get a general feel for what it is like to launch on deliberate combat operations.   Then ask yourself (honestly) if that is the type of thing you truly want to experience.   My comments there may provide you with some food for thought:

http://www.socnetcentral.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=39191&perpage=20&pagenumber=1

As for the perception of the U.S. Army regarding the Canadian Army?   My personal experience in having worked with many different U.S. forces (ranging from National Guard to Rangers, SF and SEALs) is that those who get to know us invariably hold our soldiers and units in extremely high regard.   This was certainly the case in Afghanistan with regard to TF Rakassan, TF 11 (composite Special Operations Forces), and the foreign SOF that we dealt with.   I have seen precisely the same level of respect for our units and personnel demonstrated by U.S. forces (and other allies) on various training exchanges both in Canada and abroad.   Comparatively speaking, at unit level and below our Regular Force combat arms units are very, very good.   The majority of our Army Reserve units are also quite capable of holding their own against any of our allies in terms of training and field performance.  

Our biggest problem is that we are a very small Army, with rapidly eroding combat capabilities as far as the ability to prosecute medium to high-intensity warfighting operations is concerned.   The replacement of our main battle tanks with a fewer number of far less capable "mobile gun systems", the elimination of several integral combat support capabilities within our infantry battalions for reasons of "economy", and various other "Army Transformation" initiatives will soon render our Army fit for only low-intensity combat operations against a degraded "non-peer" enemy.   We will still be capable of participating in medium-intensity combat operations within a coalition context (eg.   Op Iraqi Freedom), but will be limited to secondary supporting roles such as flank and rear-area security, reconnaissance, etc.   Unless of course, the coalition allocates armour and attack helicopter support to the Canadian contingent for specific operations.  

Is the deliberate down-grade of our Army's combat capability a "bad thing"?   That is a topic which has been debated in numerous other threads on this board.   Will it "hurt" our excellent reputation in the eyes of our allies?   Not if we demonstrate the political/national willingness to contribute high-quality forces for the types of low-intensity combat and peace-support operations that our Army will soon be optimized to undertake.   When it comes to earning the continued respect of our allies, participating in whatever capacity we can as a nation is far more important than having a full-spectrum combat capability that never deploys because we lack the political will to support our friends.   Let's just hope that our government doesn't bury it's head in the sand the next time our international friends come calling.   THAT is what will cause a significant erosion of the respect that our allies currently hold for the Canadian Army.

A final though concerning the quality of training and pace of activity that you would experience as a soldier.   I can only speak to the Infantry, as that is where my experience lies.   Suffice it to say that the training you would receive as a Canadian Army "line" infantryman exceeds that of your U.S. Army counterpart at virtually every level of your career progression.   One of the virtues of having an extremely small Army is that Canadian soldiers must be comprehensively cross-trained because we do not have the luxury of sufficient manpower to allow "specialization" (read, limited abilities training) like our U.S. friends.   A corporal in the U.S. Army infantry will have been trained in basic infantry skills and most likely one "sub-speciality" - radio operator, or driver, or machine gunner, or Bradley gunner, etc.   He is expected to perform that specific "sub-specialty" job, and pretty much that job only.   His Canadian infantry corporal equivalent (in terms of similar length of service) will have typically been cross-trained as a driver, a machinegunner, a radio operator, and likely more.   The Canadian corporal is expected to be able to perform any of those functions on a flexible basis, as the task at hand dictates.   The Canadian corporal may have already received junior leadership training, and has undoubtedly served as a Section (Squad) second-in-command.   Furthermore, in my experience the Canadian Corporal will have been encouraged and permitted by his leaders to exercise considerable initiative in the execution of his duties.   The same cannot be said of his U.S. counter-part.  

As for a lifestyle of sitting around all day and playing cards while waiting for something to happen?   I don't know what unit "Without Warning" is serving in, but that certainly hasn't been my recent experience.   The days of endless "garrison routine" are long over in the Regular Army infantry battalions that I am familiar with.   If anything, the troops of today are TOO busy with an endless cycle of MEANINGFUL training and taskings.   Ask any soldier in 3 PPCLI how much "down-time" he or she has had over the past 2 years (including the post-Afghan "reconstitution" year) and I think you will find that there wasn't much opportunity to sit around playing cards or doing TOETs "for the 100th time".   Service tempo varies by unit, and is often a function of leadership.   If there are slow periods, then it is incumbent upon the unit leadership (at ALL levels) to develop and execute   innovative, interesting and useful training to fill the gaps between scheduled deployments and major training activities.   It doesn't take much in the way or imagination or resources to throw together a 48-hour platoon fighting patrol in the training area adjacent to most unit lines.   Have a "slow" afternoon on the schedule?  Fine - throw on your rucksacks and go for a 15 km CROSS-COUNTRY orienteering march with rotating responsibility for navigating the next leg.  Or throw together a mini "mil-skills" competition with weapons handling, combat first aide, observation/detection skills, knots and lashings, stalking, etc, etc.  The bottom line is that if you find yourself sitting on your *** or doing unnecessarily repetitive training, then nothing precludes even the most junior soldier from exercising some initiative and floating a realistic and achievable training proposal up the chain of command.   Even a "no imagination required" day in the Small Arms Trainer is better than a game of euchre - at least to those who are suitably motivated to actually DO something about improving their soldier skills.        

For what it's worth....

Mark C  

 
Great responce Sir!

Looking at WoW's resume --> RCR, as 1RCR providied the D&S troops for Op Friction. 

It is not the troops - but our governments sometime unwillingness to remove the gloves... IF troops are playing cards etc it is the COy and Pl leadership that have dropped the ball.


1VP
      2002 - C Coy Bosnia
      2002-2003 A Coy D&S Pl's for OP Apollo
      2003 - BC Fires (1st in Last out)
      2004 - B Coy Op Athena

Add in we have been to the US sevral times in that time frame and run typically 2-3 PCF's a year and two Bde level ex's a year too.

The last year I have been home less than 4 months...  and byt rhe time I get back from Kabul in March - I will have spent less than 2 months in Edmonoton in that year.

  I would much rather be busy than bored...
 
 
well im convinced i guess, who knows what the future holds maybe the CF will go into combat in another country one day the preserve the peace in the war on terrorism
 
So this is why we in my estimation haven't done a lot of training

O.K. fair ball.  You admit that things are a little slow in your neck of the woods.

I think the trend to more hostile missions is fairly new notwithstanding Croatia and most troops that have gone overseas have done the typical garrison tour for the last 10 years

Did you bang your head on OP in Cyprus and just wake up?  Did you miss the Balkans(UNPROFOR, IFOR, SFOR), Somalia, Rwanda, Eritrea, Haiti, East Timor, Kosovo, etc.............

My unit has been so busy in the last 10yrs that sometimes we don't know whether to shit or go blind!

If you're going to paint with a broad brush try to stay within the lines.

 
Wow!! Withoutwarning talk about a poor attitude,if you don't like it get the hell out.Sniper eh?? Maybe I'll have a talk with your boss about attitude adjustment.I don't know where you have been in the last 15 yrs but I can say we (1 RCR) have been pretty busy,since 1990 it has been pretty steady with going on deployment,coming back from and getting ready for the next,throw in a few exercise along the way and there isn't much time for card playing unless you are hiding from doing your job,but that couldn't be the case ...right?? I mean you are a highly motivated sniper and all. ::)

 
Your right excoelis if did forget about those missions.   As a BN however we haven't been invovled in any of them that I can remember expect the Balkins (and now Afganistan) which I would agree was touch and go for the first 4 to 6 years.  
P.S.   he isn't in the sniper cell right now.
 
It's a bit difficult to answer this question because we have had relatively few opportunites to engage in actual combat since the Korean War. Other than Medak, the air campaign in Kosovo, and the involvement of 3PPCLI in Op ENDURING FREEDOM, we have been in quite a few "near combat" (hate that term, but...) places, but nothing like the US forces have. As has already been observed, that's no reflection on us, but rather a direct outcome of our foreign policy. On the other hand, we have considerably more combat experence than some other armies, so it's relative.

So, what I think you really have to look at is our potential for combat. If you examine a few basc things, I think you will see that we have very good potential, although I wonder sometimes where we are going. In terms of the raw human material-the person who becomes a soldier-I believe we have no worries at all. We are at least as good as anybody, and better than most.

In terms of the degree of training we offer, and the attention we pay to the details of training and personal equipment, we are still very strong. I believe that we are superior to the great majority of the world's armies, and at least the equal of the rest. However, it has been a struggle in the last few years to maintain this level and we are, in my opinion, beginning to run on fumes. Still, we turn out a pretty good product, particularly where the Cbt Arms NCO is concerned. Where we are weak in training is in the larger collective training levels. I look forward to see the results of the new Canadian Manouevre Training Centre when it opens at Wainwright.

As for officership, again I believe that up to about battalion we have nothing to worry about in terms of potential, although clearly the US have it all over us in combat experience. We also produce a very high quality of staff officer who can hold his own in any US or multi-national HQ. Where we thin out is in command at formation level: we are just too small to offer much challenge here. As a result, very few of our general officers have much practical command experience (LGen Hillier excepted, after his time with the US Army and commanding ISAF) and we have a limited ability to exert C2 at those levels (although we are getting better).

If you consider the majority of the world's armies, our equipment is generally fine and has improved greatly over the last few years, although we seem to be moving irrevocably toward a medium weight force that will  IMHO have difficulty against a determined enemy with heavy (or even good medium...) forces, all other cfactrs being equal.

A few areas in which I believe we need to work are our general level of physical fitness, our ability to endure hardship (we live pretty large), our abillity to deal with psychlogical issues including "mind hardening" against the stresses of battle (to the extent that can be achieved, which I admit is a matter of some debate), our ability to deploy and sustain ourselves overseas, and the building of a better "warrior first" focus inside a unified force structure that still tells a support soldier he is a tradesman first and a soldier second (or third, or whatever...) All of
these are recognized and talked about, but I believe we need to progress in them if we are to remain effective. Cheers.
 
Before I start this is my personal opinion (which I know doesn't count for much, so if you'd prefer you can overlook this post, otherwise read on, but remember, I warned you)...

When you join the Canadian Army, or any army for that matter, what's the first thing on your mind?   Because if it's "Oh boy, I can't wait until we go to war to kill someone I've only seen for two seconds" then you shouldn't be joining the army.   You join to serve your country, it's people, and defend it it's values, and yes, in some cases the defensive side of things is to go on the offensive (such as how the allies came together to attack Hitler and his army in WWII, we attacked to defend our people and the innocent who we're being attacked).

I have a friend who said after college he was going back to Poland to join the army...I asked him why he wouldn't just stay in Canada and join our army since I'm the one who (I guess) influenced him to join in the first place (with all my talk of how I'm going to join the reserves in January 2005 and transfer to Regular force after college).   His answer to me was "because the Polish Army gives you a pistol as soon as you enlist."   I was going to get in to a "heated conversation" with him over why he chose to serve in Poland for that reason but decided not to.

My point is (again) you don't join any army anywhere because you want to kill someone, or because you get a gun or get to launch rockets or blow stuff up, you join because:

Skura said:
You join to serve your country, it's people, and defend it it's values

Again, this is my personal opinion...right or wrong it's what I believe.
 
Skura: I respect your optimistic view of why people join the Canadian Army, but after 30 years of time in, I have come to the conclusion that there are as many reasons as there are people who apply to join. Some, no doubt, do join for the altruistic reasons that you outlined in your post, although I would venture to say that this motivation is higher in wartime or when there is a directly perceived threat to Canada. I am speaking now about motivation for career service as a Regular soldier. I have done my time as a Reservist, and when I am back in my normal job in Canada I work for and with Reservists, but I am not specifically talking about them.

Many others, especially in the Combat Arms, join because they want a challenge in life, because they are attracted to the images associated with the combat soldier, because they want a strong sense of belonging, or because through Cadets or Reserves they find something in military life that acts as a "hook". And there are probably all sorts of other motivations.

All of these motivations will serve to get somebody in the door of the recruiting centre. But, in my opinion, many of them begin to fade out when training starts, especially when it gets physically or mentally hard. What begins to take over, again in my opinion (although I know I am backed by a fair bit of the literature on this) are things like the desire to succeed, the need for group acceptance, pride in unit and loyalty to buddies.

For an Army like ours, which has spent most of the preceding century as an expeditionary force employed in operations in which there are only limited direct threats to Canada (or perhaps none at all...) altruistic motivations probably won't go too far to hold a platoon, company or battalion together, or make soldiers face risks for people they don't know in a country they've never heard of before. Instead (and I'm sorry if I sound cynical or heretical) I believe that we as Regular Combat Arms soldiers share  very similar motivatoins wth all the expeditionary soldiers of history: the Roman Legions, the French Foreign Legion, the USMC. This isn't very PC but it's what I think.

All of this (I'm on a roll now...) presents a danger, identified to a certain degree through venues such as the Somalia Inquiry, that as  Regular soldiers in our units we can become so inward looking that we begin to turn away from the society we are sworn to serve, and pehaps even away from the bigger Army to which our unit belongs. This is why (as several other militaries including most notably the US have found) the development of a strong moral/ethical code is vital in soldiers, especially in leaders. Cheers.

 
B.C Dude said:
thanks ex-dragoon it helped a bit but the question of the CF's role in combat still hangs over my head, I can't understand why is it that the U.S military usually is the one fighting while our army is stuck with peacekeeping, and now with things happening in the world the way it is, we have a chance to show canadians that we're bad asses too and we're more then capable of fighting terrorism alongside the U.S.

that is more a statement of how our governments operate on Vere different levels not how good our army is compared to theirs

also remember their are more people living in the grater LA area then all of Canada (i think i could be wrong)
so of core their army will be 100times bigger then ours its a population thing and a political thing
join the CA because you want to be a Candean not because you want to go kick some @**
 
B.C Dude if your thinking of  joining the CF perhaps you should concedered joining a local reserve unit. It would give you experience plus when you sign up for regforce your reserve time counts towards your service record . One of my best friends did this now he is a Master bombardier with the Airdefense Artillery in CFB Vaclartier Quebec and he loves every minute off it . Good luck to what ever decision you make .

 
"thanks ex-dragoon it helped a bit but the question of the CF's role in combat still hangs over my head, I can't understand why is it that the U.S military usually is the one fighting while our army is stuck with peacekeeping, and now with things happening in the world the way it is, we have a chance to show can"adians that we're bad asses too and we're more then capable of fighting terrorism alongside the U.S."

B.C Dude, Justthink about what your saying.  Have you studied any Canadian History; been to a policial hishory class at all in High school??  Because if you have, you know the reasons why Canada sticks to peacekeeping and the US to war making.  Hopefully you've read the posts here and it has given an idea of why the CF is still a great army and given you reasons to join.  But if you want to go war and do combat missions, then cross the border and talk to the recruiters in the US.  They take a large number of Canadians every year and we make their largest non-citizen group.


As for  motivations on why people join the army, I can only speak from experience at ST-Jean and my Platoon, and main reason was money and a getting a good career.  Yes most of them were techs so being in combat wasn't big on their list.  Pride in serving your country comes in there, but its not big on list. 
 
radiohead said:
Have studied any Canadian History been to a policial hishory class at all in High school??   Because if you have, you know the reasons why Canada sticks to peacekeeping and the US to war making.  
Actually looking at HISTORY we were pretty active until the 60's
As for   motivations on why people join the army, I can only speak from experinec at ST-Jean and my Platoon, and main reason was money and a getting a good career.   Yes most of them were techs being in combat wasn't big on their list.   Pride in serving your country comes in there, but its not big on list.  

Great so we do the job, and you reap the rewards? 

Guess what clownie that is not how the world works - when you are siting in a Sanger or doing convoy escorts in Afghan you will get a chnace to rethink your rose coloured world, there are not enough 031's to go around and thus you non trade folk are often (read very often) called upon to  jobs some seem to think are beneath them.

-Kevin
 
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